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      07-16-2012, 08:47 PM   #45
dmw16
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Wow, I certainly didn't mean for my post to set off this kind of back and forth. I was going to just step back, but I guess I feel compelled to post.

Am I a bad driver? No, I am not. I have logged a lot of safe miles in various different cars and up until this past Thursday never had any issue.

Am I a great driver? Not a chance. I have lots to learn and can certainly admit that.

Did I make a serious error that I am fortunate that all the result was is a little bit of damage to my car? You bet your a$$! I am first and foremost grateful that my lapse in good judgement didn't result in injury to anyone. I'd like to think that had a car been coming the other way I'd have never done what I did, but I won't try to rationalize it away. I made a mistake. I admit that.

But, to the people going on and on about how the M3 is too much for people if they can't control it without DSC you really need to come off it a bit. I feel pretty confident in assuming you've made mistakes behind the wheel. No one on here (at least that I know of) is a great (ie ALMS, Formula 1, etc level) driver. We all have things to learn.

I will certainly learn from my mistake. I've played it over in my head numerous times. I generally have good car control, but in this case I screwed up. Plain and simple. It was the wrong place, the wrong time, and on top of all that I failed in controlling the car.

Going forward I will take it to the track. I've already begun seeking out a few HPDE's between now and the end of the fall to improve my capabilities and to take these kinds of learning experiences into a controlled environment.

That's all I've got gents.
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      07-16-2012, 09:23 PM   #46
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I didn't mean to sound harsh, and I'm sorry if I did.
I was not singling you out, I was commenting on how a lot of people think if you turn off your DSC you are a death trap waiting to happen

But to further what you said
If you always drive with DSC, You're not learning, as most mistakes you make will be corrected by the DSC.
it's only when you don't use DSC do you learn that you have to be easy with the throttle in certain situations, car control etc
Other wise you can just mash the gas pedal very time and rely on the computer to regulate the gas, and take care of business
I can guarantee you that anyone that is a formula one driver etc, did not get to where they are by using DSC all the time

I can also tell you it took me 2 years of driving this car before I felt comfortable turning off the DSC
Now after owning an M3 for close to 4 years, I am pretty confident in my skills to handle it without the electronic nannies
BUT
When I turn off all that stuff, i am giving my driving 100% of my attention.
If not, then I leave everything on.
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      07-16-2012, 09:35 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I didn't mean to sound harsh, and I'm sorry if I did.
I was not singling you out, I was commenting on how a lot of people think if you turn off your DSC you are a death trap waiting to happen

But to further what you said
If you always drive with DSC, You're not learning, as most mistakes you make will be corrected by the DSC.
it's only when you don't use DSC do you learn that you have to be easy with the throttle in certain situations, car control etc
Other wise you can just mash the gas pedal very time and rely on the computer to regulate the gas, and take care of business
I can guarantee you that anyone that is a formula one driver etc, did not get to where they are by using DSC all the time

I can also tell you it took me 2 years of driving this car before I felt comfortable turning off the DSC
Now after owning an M3 for close to 4 years, I am pretty confident in my skills to handle it without the electronic nannies
BUT
When I turn off all that stuff, i am giving my driving 100% of my attention.
If not, then I leave everything on.
Great summary....safeties off...no more clowning around. It's like respecting a weapon and being mindful of its power.


My old 4x4 toyota truck has no ABS, barely has airbags. I hate to let people drive it. That thing was/is easy to roll if you drive like crap and make a sudden swerve/w brakes on (like someone borrowing your car and doing a panic stop when cut off by another knuckle head). If anything needed DSC, it was that situation exactly...remember old ford explorers.

Damn, no DSC, no anti-lock, first gen airbags...how am I alive? How did we survive? JK!
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      07-16-2012, 10:05 PM   #48
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When I was a teenager I had a '77 Toyota Pick-up, long bed. Now, you want to talk about a dangerous car!

This thing had zero electronic aids. The brakes were either off or locking up the ultra light weight rear-end. The steering was full manual. It overheated driving across town. Air bags...only if you had balloons in the car.

My point...an e9x M3 is a piece of cake to drive compared to the rolling junkers I grew up with and learned to drive.

All this said, don't drive over your head unless you are willing to learn a tough lesson, sometimes the hard way (self included).
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      07-16-2012, 10:11 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
...When I turn off all that stuff [DCS], i am giving my driving 100% of my attention.
If not, then I leave everything on.
Excellent point!
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      07-16-2012, 10:19 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief View Post
When I was a teenager I had a '77 Toyota Pick-up, long bed. Now, you want to talk about a dangerous car!

This thing had zero electronic aids. The brakes were either off or locking up the ultra light weight rear-end. The steering was full manual. It overheated driving across town. Air bags...only if you had balloons in the car.

My point...an e9x M3 is a piece of cake to drive compared to the rolling junkers I grew up with and learned to drive.

All this said, don't drive over your head unless you are willing to learn a tough lesson, sometimes the hard way (self included).


Kmarei is right, if you don't turn off DSC you are not learning. However, IF you turn of DSC, you have to be mindful of what you are about to do. For me, I found baby steps (with DSC off) in a controlled enviroment helped. I now feel comfortable with DSC off below 100km/h. I have never found myself sideways beyond control, or going too fast to take a corner. I hope I never will, as I have a lot of respect for this car DSCed off, and I don't want to have smashed rims etc.


Good luck.
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      07-17-2012, 07:40 AM   #51
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I agree with what some have said. If one ends up losing control or spinning every time one turns off DSC, that person doesn't have the driving skills (or maturity) required to handle an M3.

I do believe in the safety net offered by electronic aids. However, they should only be there for the odd occasion of an emergency situation, such as an avoidance maneuvre, or when hitting unexpected road conditions, such as black ice. This is why it is a good idea to keep DSC on on the street as you cannot anticipate when you will need it. However, electronic aids should not be there to restrain someone that is uncontrolably mashing the throttle in every turn due to lack of skill or judgment.

The M3 is a very potent machine with performance equivalent if not surpassing race cars of just a few years ago, yet it is available to the general public. Many other cars also fall in this category, we are living very good and fun years in terms of automotive history . Let's enjoy it responsibly .

Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-04-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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      07-17-2012, 10:34 AM   #52
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I turn my DSC off only during autoX and track events. Too much at stake on the roads, and not enough opportunity to "push the limits" to where it matters. As much as I'd like to daily drive with it off for the experience, I have more peace of mind leaving it on.
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      07-17-2012, 11:23 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SehrSchnell View Post
Unrelated... but why is your formatting always f@cked up?

how is it f@cked up here?

i would normally agree with you
i usually use the enter key more than i should (instead of using . )
but in this case i was using it sparingly
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      07-17-2012, 02:23 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei
I didn't mean to sound harsh, and I'm sorry if I did.
I was not singling you out, I was commenting on how a lot of people think if you turn off your DSC you are a death trap waiting to happen

But to further what you said
If you always drive with DSC, You're not learning, as most mistakes you make will be corrected by the DSC.
it's only when you don't use DSC do you learn that you have to be easy with the throttle in certain situations, car control etc
Other wise you can just mash the gas pedal very time and rely on the computer to regulate the gas, and take care of business
I can guarantee you that anyone that is a formula one driver etc, did not get to where they are by using DSC all the time

I can also tell you it took me 2 years of driving this car before I felt comfortable turning off the DSC
Now after owning an M3 for close to 4 years, I am pretty confident in my skills to handle it without the electronic nannies
BUT
When I turn off all that stuff, i am giving my driving 100% of my attention.
If not, then I leave everything on.

Makes sense
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Last edited by understeer; 07-17-2012 at 02:59 PM.
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      07-17-2012, 02:34 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by understeer View Post
I mean makes sense
Did you know you can edit posts
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      07-17-2012, 02:57 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Did you know you can edit posts
For some reason I could not edit it on the iPhone,
Had to wait till I got back to the office,
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      07-17-2012, 03:00 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by understeer View Post
For some reason I could not edit it on the iPhone,
Had to wait till I got back to the office,
Update your Bimmerpost app. The ability to edit posts from the iPhone was recently added.
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      07-19-2012, 10:36 AM   #58
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Shit happens, it's a persons ability to learn from their mistakes that is important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonziii82 View Post
And this ladies and gentleman is why M drivers are labeled douche bags...
I thought that was what DSC stood for...Douche Spin Control
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      07-26-2012, 12:47 PM   #59
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
So commuting home today, I decided to try it for the first time with DSC off. Seriously, why didn't anyone warn me that was the "wheels fall off" button. You don't know how embarrassing it is sitting in the intersection, cars swerving around you, wheels rolling off down the road. I will NOT be doing that again.
I think I am going to sell mine and get a bicycle, what with the wheels falling off all the time...
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      07-26-2012, 04:48 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I hate to break it to some users
But If you need DSC to avoid crashing
You are not a good driver, period

What did people do in the 90s before stability control was standard?
They did not crash all the time and kill countless little children
Some did, but I guarantee you, the ones that crashed are the same class of driver who buys an M3 to show off with, even though his driving skills aren't at it's level.

People here act like turning off DSC is the same as playing Russian roulette
It's not, if you know what you are doing
And if you don't, then you really shouldn't be driving this car.
Haha if I don't want traction control I jump in my E30. Not nearly as powerful but a short wheels base car with no electronic nannies definitely makes you respect driving much more!
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      09-03-2012, 11:45 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Esq. View Post
This. DSC off should be reserved for the track. This car is much too powerful to be fooling around on the street with DSC off. Sorry, just had to say it.
I'm wondering if something is wrong with my car. I cannot get the back end to break loose with DSC off, in a straight line on a clean & dry road. Granted, I'm not talking about clutch dumps, here, but pulls in 1st and 2nd gear.

Rear tires are 275 Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs with a good amount of tread. Rear toe is 1/16th in.


BTW, I completely agree with what everyone says about safety. I only try this stuff when I have good visibility and there's no one and nothing to hit.

Also, I normally street drive with DSC on (added safety, for that unexpected situation), but my M button is set for MDM in case I want a bit of fun. I love that MDM lets me drive hard without risking a spinout (I know MDM has limits; I don't use it to make impossible turns but rather to keep my throttle application in check).
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      09-04-2012, 12:13 AM   #62
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Also,

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdphan View Post
made sure the power button was lighted
Honestly, the only good reason I can see for the different power modes is heel-toe downshifts. Otherwise, just leave it in standard mode as that will give you better throttle control. And throttle control is especially important with DSC off.
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      09-04-2012, 07:37 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifty// View Post
I'm wondering if something is wrong with my car. I cannot get the back end to break loose with DSC off, in a straight line on a clean & dry road. Granted, I'm not talking about clutch dumps, here, but pulls in 1st and 2nd gear.

Rear tires are 275 Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs with a good amount of tread. Rear toe is 1/16th in.


BTW, I completely agree with what everyone says about safety. I only try this stuff when I have good visibility and there's no one and nothing to hit.

Also, I normally street drive with DSC on (added safety, for that unexpected situation), but my M button is set for MDM in case I want a bit of fun. I love that MDM lets me drive hard without risking a spinout (I know MDM has limits; I don't use it to make impossible turns but rather to keep my throttle application in check).
My car is the same way with brand new PS2. Unless I pop the clutch in 1st it barely just squeaks the tires or does nothing at all. I think most of the comments here are sliding going around corners?
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      09-04-2012, 08:51 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhouck View Post
Track mode as in MDM?

IMO you should treat driving with MDM on the same as if you have DSC off -- it should be a safety net for if you make a mistake, not an electronic nanny to intentionally trigger. Outside of helping to prevent instances like this, it just teaches and reinforces better driving habits, especially if you later drive a car without electronic aids!
If you really wanna learn how to handle a car without any electronic aids then get yourself an Ariel Atom. You'll soon appreciate the technological advances in our M3's. If you can master cornering and traction in the Atom then you might be qualified to drive around town with DSC off, until then DSC on at ALL TIMES.

M3 is a beast with a LOT of power that is extremely dangerous with a novice driver behind the wheel with DSC off.
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      09-04-2012, 09:21 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifty// View Post
I'm wondering if something is wrong with my car. I cannot get the back end to break loose with DSC off, in a straight line on a clean & dry road. Granted, I'm not talking about clutch dumps, here, but pulls in 1st and 2nd gear.

Rear tires are 275 Dunlop Direzza Z1 Star Specs with a good amount of tread. Rear toe is 1/16th in.
That is odd .

Mashing the gas in first gear going straight will definitely get the rear tires spinning in my car (using Michelin PSS). If the road grip is not perfect, I can get wheel spin in 2nd gear too .
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      09-04-2012, 10:44 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei
I didn't mean to sound harsh, and I'm sorry if I did.
I was not singling you out, I was commenting on how a lot of people think if you turn off your DSC you are a death trap waiting to happen

But to further what you said
If you always drive with DSC, You're not learning, as most mistakes you make will be corrected by the DSC.
it's only when you don't use DSC do you learn that you have to be easy with the throttle in certain situations, car control etc
Other wise you can just mash the gas pedal very time and rely on the computer to regulate the gas, and take care of business
I can guarantee you that anyone that is a formula one driver etc, did not get to where they are by using DSC all the time

I can also tell you it took me 2 years of driving this car before I felt comfortable turning off the DSC
Now after owning an M3 for close to 4 years, I am pretty confident in my skills to handle it without the electronic nannies
BUT
When I turn off all that stuff, i am giving my driving 100% of my attention.
If not, then I leave everything on.
In ref. to your sentence before the smiley:

Nigel Mansell
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