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      07-10-2012, 07:42 PM   #177
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If everything is changing, evolving,how come Toyota/Subaru started offering a low CG flat-four RWD 3klb 4 seater car?
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      07-10-2012, 07:44 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by SehrSchnell View Post
That dude needs to get laid. Seriously, I don't care much for the 'lime rock' edition either, but the lengths people will go to bitch about shit is beyond me.
+1 The BMW M itself is still alive and amazing. If you dont like it, take your money and your wining elsewhere
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      07-10-2012, 07:46 PM   #179
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I just want to say, the current E90-93 M3 must be really popular, that BMW can run its marketing "thing" almost every year since I can ever remember (special edition this, limited edition that), until it squeezes the last dollar bill off that V8 engine...
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      07-10-2012, 07:52 PM   #180
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I really don't get some of the logic here. BMW is the official car of Lime Rock, LRP uses them as pace cars, the Lime Rock Drivers Club owns a few M3s, hot laps around the track in M3s are auctioned off at the major events and the Skip Barber School uses them. All of these cars do countless laps around Lime Rock and all of them are totally stock.

BMW decides, primarily for promotional purposes and to commemorate the long term ratationship between Lime Rock and BMW, to release a Lime Rock Edition to build a little excitement for a morbund, but still highy desirable model. They make it look somewhat distictive with a relatively rare color and a few trim bits but do not de-content it in any way. It is mechanically and performance wise the same car that people here have been touting as the crowning acievment of automotive technology, "The undiputed benchmark", etc.

Somehow this dilutes the M Brand and people here start carrying on like BMW stuck an M3 badge on a Mini Clubman. Who is going to buy this car? Probably about the same kind of people who usually buy M3s, car enthusiasts who primarily will use it as a daily driver, will take it to an occaisional BMWCCA DE event and perhaps are looking for something a bit more unique than the relatively ubiquitous Alpine White/Carbon Roof M3s that you see everywhere.

I predict that in a few years.

1. Lime Rock Park will still be around.
2. BMW will still be around.
3. The M division will be doing fine and still be building benchmark cars.
4. Japlopnik will be gone and forgotten and not particularly missed.
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      07-10-2012, 07:57 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
If everything is changing, evolving,how come Toyota/Subaru started offering a low CG flat-four RWD 3klb 4 seater car?
Because Toyota spent the last decade moving just Corollas and Camrys and realized they lost their fan base without the Celica and Supra. Smart move as I know there is a market for that car, but I wouldn't drive one. While I'm sure the car is a fun to drive, cheap and simple, that's not what all of us want in an M car. Personally, I want build quality, some tech and comfort, sexy lines, and the visceral sounds of a high-revving V8.
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      07-10-2012, 08:03 PM   #182
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Regarding cars evolving, an Audi TT S just scaled Pikes Peak without a driver at race speeds.
Is that the future you guys want? All you have to do is sit on your fat ass and let the car do all the driving.

I guess not just the M brand is being diluted, the whole driving experience is being diluted.
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      07-10-2012, 08:06 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Regarding cars evolving, an Audi TT S just scaled Pikes Peak without a driver at race speeds.
Is that the future you guys want? All you have to do is sit on your fat ass and let the car do all the driving.

I guess not just the M brand is being diluted, the whole driving experience is being diluted.
It's ironic that, as car technology improves, the true "driver's cars" are the less expensive ones without all that tech. Subaru BRZ, I'm lookin' at you.
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      07-10-2012, 08:09 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimoM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
If everything is changing, evolving,how come Toyota/Subaru started offering a low CG flat-four RWD 3klb 4 seater car?
Because Toyota spent the last decade moving just Corollas and Camrys and realized they lost their fan base without the Celica and Supra. Smart move as I know there is a market for that car, but I wouldn't drive one. While I'm sure the car is a fun to drive, cheap and simple, that's not what all of us want in an M car. Personally, I want build quality, some tech and comfort, sexy lines, and the visceral sounds of a V8.

I don't think that Toyota/Suburu have any illusions of that car competing with the M3 or taking any of its market share. This car will be marketed to a younger less affluent demographic, They will build brand recognition and loyalty with these cars and i would be willing to bet that they have long term plans for upmarket sports cars and GT cars that they are hoping to sell to these new customers in a few years when they are ready to move upmarket,
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      07-10-2012, 08:18 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I just bought an M-umbrella from the BMW lifestyle online store . The ///M logo is finding it's place everywhere.
+1000 from wallets to Bicycles to kiddie cars..
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      07-10-2012, 08:21 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rissei View Post
Given the amount of "because racecar" sentiment in this thread, I wonder how many people here have cars with:

a) No leather (cloth is grippier)
b) No power seats (too heavy)
c) No navigation system/premium sound/"quality of life" equipment (too heavy and unnecessary on the track)
d) 18-inch wheels (greatest selection of race tires)
e) No EDC (replacement struts are expensive, all top-tier aftermarket dampers delete EDC functionality)
f) Sedan (cheaper, no performance disadvantage vis-a-vis coupe)

My guess is, "not many." Instead, we have threads upon threads of people showing off their cars with 20-inch wheels, debating the merits of LCI taillights and cutting up their exhaust for sound purposes.

BMW has to go where the market goes, and the US market is saying "I don't want a stripped-out $60k car, I'd rather have a $72k car with lots of gadgets, nice-looking wheels and a wicked exhauste note."

It's neither good nor bad; it is what it is.
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      07-10-2012, 08:24 PM   #187
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Maybe all he want to do was create dialogue!
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      07-10-2012, 08:24 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
If everything is changing, evolving,how come Toyota/Subaru started offering a low CG flat-four RWD 3klb 4 seater car?
Well I guarantee that if you took away the cost factor and just gave people the choice of one of these cars or an M3, the vast majority would still choose the M3. These cars are more econosports. M3's are much more sophisticated. I am also willing to bet that if these cars stand the test of time, they too will become more and more sophisticated from generation to generation.

Furthermore, these are not premium brand cars. They don't compete with the likes of Benz, Audi and Porsche. They buyers of the premium brands are demanding more and more from their cars. I personally have no interest in a "stripper" performance car. If I did, I would have bought a Lotus Exige or maybe even a Boss 302. I want performance AND sophistication AND luxury.
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      07-10-2012, 08:25 PM   #189
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I respect your desire for this specific car, but I don't think it would have been a great success by BMW's new sales standards. Realistically, it would probably sell in the hundreds in the US, especially since the E9X body is about to be replaced.

And I think the specificity of your desired configuration underscores the problem: for the extra $10k-20K that this car would cost, you want something different than the next guy, and the next guy after that. Why not just the tuners fill the void as they are today?

BMW would have to build and sell a bunch of different M-branded micro-models to achieve the same level of profitability they're recognizing today by doing what they're doing. They're just not playing in the that ballpark right now as Porsche is with it's many 911 variants. Maybe BMW needs to consider an uber M sub-brand for cars like this (like someone mentioned earlier, Audi's RS line) but that's also a form of dilution because then many people will say "uber M is the REAL M."

In the end, it's a whole lot easier for BMW to continue to make $100K M luxury/sports sedans than delve into the niche business. They're taking the easier route and chasing the easier money. I don't love it either, but it's clearly working for them financially for now. Long term it may cause some brand damage, but it's easy to forget that brands also adapt. Because of where we come from and which cars we grew up with, M means something different to many of us than what it will mean to someone our age 20 years from now. BMW is probably counting on that by evolving the meaning of the label...and they're counting the money all the way.

+1 Just as AMG was 20+ years ago..RENNtech still follows the original model

Different times for sure....
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      07-10-2012, 08:31 PM   #190
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Quote:
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+1000 from wallets to Bicycles to kiddie cars..
There is a great deal more Ferrari branded merchandise sold than M merchandise
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      07-10-2012, 08:33 PM   #191
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There is a great deal more Ferrari branded merchandise sold than M merchandise
+10000 Your right about that - they have diaper bags too LOL

Don't ask me how I know
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      07-10-2012, 08:39 PM   #192
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to a certain degree, i agree with him, but i'm not fixed on the past either. Yes, the cars are heavier, have more electronannies, and to a certain degree less exhilariting. But they are also faster, more efficient and still tear up the track. You have to evolve with society and technology and that is what BMW M is doing.

He is spot on about the marketing aspect of it though and the dilution of the letter 'M'. Also, he's kind of spot on about M cars being expensive, ricer cars. Oh well.
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      07-10-2012, 09:26 PM   #193
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Entirely agree with you however they are making what there clients asking for, living in the US I found out people love to have those big cars what's called SUV's, they care more about the options or how luxurious the car such as the Nav screen, speakers, iPhone integrated, they don't even know what real M5 or m3 w/ stick shift thing is all about! Glad to own the last decent generation E39 M5, although most of Europe, the middle east & Australia still into old ultimate driving machine.

E39 M5 In Australia is still worth $40,000 AUD, $39,717.95 USD, 24,862.90 GBP, why is that??
Cheers I always admired the e39 M5. In 1998 I bought a 98 E39 528i Sport although not the fastest car, very capable and drove excellent. IMHO E39 was one of the best BMW models ever made. Top 5 of all the BMW's I have owned.
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      07-10-2012, 09:28 PM   #194
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So he's mad people buy ///m cars and don't track them? Lolz
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      07-10-2012, 09:44 PM   #195
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Lot's of true statements in the article. I remember back when I used to lust after M3's and M5's in the 80's 90's and even as recently as e9x era because M cars were rare and special.Now almost every car BMW makes has an M variant.I'm quickly loosing interest in what BMW is doing and looking back at Porsche smiling.This will be my last M car sadly,I will keep it forever,but will buy a Porsche GT3 once again in the next few years
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      07-10-2012, 09:47 PM   #196
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BMW is in the business of making cars and money.

Without money, they cannot make cars.

Thus they must maximize profits in every way possible.
You don't have to maximize profit in every possible way to keep making cars, etc. Look at Lambo and Ferrari and the multitude of other specialized bands in various markets.
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      07-10-2012, 09:49 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luis_m3
The reality is that today's businesses are all about money.
I hate it, but I'm a realist... BMW loves to make money out of people like us.
This guy is right, it's all about the money. I was upset that they started putting an M badge on nearly every new vehicle they make to make the non M owners feel good but it's just another way to make money. They will find enough idiots out there that think this is actually a better performing M car than a regular M3 and sell them in a matter of days. The important thing is that the people that matter know the difference! Not worth complaining about cause BMW doesn't give a damn what we think. I still love REAL M cars though!
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      07-10-2012, 09:51 PM   #198
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Quote:
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You don't have to maximize profit in every possible way to keep making cars, etc. Look at Lambo and Ferrari and the multitude of other specialized bands in various markets.
Lamborgini and Ferrari are both part of large Multi-National corporations.

In any case i don't see how making a special edition of an M3, even if it is a trim package, dilutes the M brand.
The Lime Rock M3 is a real M3 and is no less (and admittedly probably no more) of an M car as any M3 and other than the color is identical to the M3s that are used at Lime Rock every day,
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