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      07-12-2012, 05:18 PM   #309
tonyzale
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Originally Posted by SehrSchnell
That dude needs to get laid. Seriously, I don't care much for the 'lime rock' edition either, but the lengths people will go to bitch about shit is beyond me.
I vote someone create a seperate "whiners post".
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      07-12-2012, 05:34 PM   #310
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Can someone tell me a mainstream manufacturer that isn't making their cars more all-encompassing or multi-functional. Many people mention Porsche. Look at the luxury and features of a 911 today vs one from 1986.

It's not that there are no more "real" M cars, its just that they are offering more than just performance which is what the market demands. Hey...if we went back to hand crank windows, no A/C, etc, etc, wouldn't that save weight and be better for performance? Wouldn't you have better steering feel with no power assist whatsoever? How far do you want to go with this?

Ask yourself this: Has the performance of any M-car been diminished from one generation to the next?

The badge whoring to non-M models is whole different thing. My dealer has a 640i gran coupe with M door sills and an M steering wheel. I laughed.
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      07-13-2012, 12:02 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by DARK_M3 View Post
I understand. The only problem is that when someone says they drive a Porsche nowadays, you never know if they are going to hit the track or take the kids to a soccer game.
fair point
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      07-13-2012, 01:35 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
This is why I've suggested that it could be fruitful for the M Division to branch out with an M only sports car that could please the purists. BMW would still make M and M-Sport variants of their mainstream cars, of course, but an M sports car could really underscore the original value of the M brand and give the old guard a reason to stick around.

Just an idea.
Absolutely not going to happen.

A big reason we even have M cars is that they are based off of much less sporty, much higher volume production cars. BMW won't do this not because they can't (and they could do it, probably quite brilliantly). They have choices about where to invest profits and buying more plants and machines to crank out even more base 3ers and 5ers while making them a bit lighter is where they have chosen to invest. It would almost for sure, even if they developed a great true sports car or sports line, be a bad FINANCIAL decision with not enough return on investment. Thus it ain't gonna happen. Pretty simple. On the flip side, almost by definition, if they could do so they very likely would.
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      07-13-2012, 01:38 AM   #313
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This is the email I just wrote the the Jalopnik article's author:

Hi Bill -

I had to write you after reading your article on Jalopnik. I have respected BMW my whole life and have always revered their cars and engineering, but as of the last year and a half to two years I've been increasingly concerned with the direction they're taking. While the M models are certainly lacking, with huge increases in weight and being over filled with adjustable everything, other models in the lineup have the same problems.

Take the F10 5 series: I purchased a new e60 550i M Sport back in 2009 and have loved it ever since. While I can understand the new trend to turbocharge, I love the NA engine and the fact that the suspension is static. I feel like it's one of the last high-end BMW's that's fairly simple. In 2010 I was invited to a driving event at Weatherford BMW in Berkeley, California. While they had other models there, I really just wanted to drive the new 550i. As I drove to the dealership I was worried that, after driving the new 550, I would get back in mine and think, "damn, the new one is so much better", however, the complete opposite happened. When I got back in my car, I had a huge grin as I got on the on-ramp to I-80. By comparison, the new 550 felt heavier (which it is, by about 400 lbs.) and more isolated from the road. I could barely hear the engine. Everything just felt watered-down, like it was meant for a 70 year old CEO, not someone who admires the sport in sport sedan. At 25 years old, I have zero interest in driving an 'old man car'. My car felt more agile, had more seering feel (is the fuel savings that much better with electric assist? Not at the expense of steering feel), and I could actually hear the engine. While I was happy that the drive reinforced the love I have for my 550, it made me sad to think of that's happening to BMW. I test-drive a car that is brand new and was just released months earlier, and by comparison with my car, while it was refreshed in 2008, was originally released in 2003 and has the more satisfying driving experience of the two... how is that progress?

It's common knowledge that the 3 series is the baby of the lineup with the majority of sales, and they clearly didn't want to tinker with it too much by keeping the weight the same. Even then, all the adjustable this and that and all the technology they employ to make the car drive 'better' actually achieves the opposite as it further isolates the driver from the road. It's as if BMW is too worried that standard suspension alone cannot produce satisfying driving results, even though it did for decades.

Although I've always been a Bimmerphile, I can't follow BMW blindly into whatever unfortunate business decisions it chooses to make. The recent Car and Driver comparison test between the new M5, e63 AMG, and S6, in which the M5 came last, was really an eye opener (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test). If they want to water down their regular models to increase sales, I guess there's nothing to be done. But to decrease the 'driver's car' quality that used to be the hallmark of the M models is truly disappointing.

Thanks again for the courage to say what you did.
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      07-13-2012, 01:58 AM   #314
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Mod, please close this thread; this has turned into an "I hate BMW for making too much money... I wished they made track-ready rockets from now on, even though I hardly ever track the damn thing anyways", or "The M Division is letting me down lately, I may have to move on to a Porsche".

To all; no, I am by no means a pro driver or constantly tracking my car, but I LOVE the fact that my M3 is a great daily driver, family car, and I whenever I choose to... I can take it to a track and just enjoy what this beautiful machine is best at.
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      07-13-2012, 08:15 AM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luis_m3 View Post
Mod, please close this thread; this has turned into an "I hate BMW for making too much money... I wished they made track-ready rockets from now on, even though I hardly ever track the damn thing anyways", or "The M Division is letting me down lately, I may have to move on to a Porsche".

To all; no, I am by no means a pro driver or constantly tracking my car, but I LOVE the fact that my M3 is a great daily driver, family car, and I whenever I choose to... I can take it to a track and just enjoy what this beautiful machine is best at.
who are you to ask a Mod to close the thread?

you don't like the thread, it's this simple: DON'T CLICK ON IT!
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      07-13-2012, 08:27 AM   #316
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People who think BMW M has strayed from its roots have no idea what those roots are.
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      07-13-2012, 08:34 AM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
People who think BMW M has strayed from its roots have no idea what those roots are.
CLEARLY!
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      07-13-2012, 08:53 AM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acorradi87 View Post
This is the email I just wrote the the Jalopnik article's author:

Hi Bill -

I had to write you after reading your article on Jalopnik. I have respected BMW my whole life and have always revered their cars and engineering, but as of the last year and a half to two years I've been increasingly concerned with the direction they're taking. While the M models are certainly lacking, with huge increases in weight and being over filled with adjustable everything, other models in the lineup have the same problems.

Take the F10 5 series: I purchased a new e60 550i M Sport back in 2009 and have loved it ever since. While I can understand the new trend to turbocharge, I love the NA engine and the fact that the suspension is static. I feel like it's one of the last high-end BMW's that's fairly simple. In 2010 I was invited to a driving event at Weatherford BMW in Berkeley, California. While they had other models there, I really just wanted to drive the new 550i. As I drove to the dealership I was worried that, after driving the new 550, I would get back in mine and think, "damn, the new one is so much better", however, the complete opposite happened. When I got back in my car, I had a huge grin as I got on the on-ramp to I-80. By comparison, the new 550 felt heavier (which it is, by about 400 lbs.) and more isolated from the road. I could barely hear the engine. Everything just felt watered-down, like it was meant for a 70 year old CEO, not someone who admires the sport in sport sedan. At 25 years old, I have zero interest in driving an 'old man car'. My car felt more agile, had more seering feel (is the fuel savings that much better with electric assist? Not at the expense of steering feel), and I could actually hear the engine. While I was happy that the drive reinforced the love I have for my 550, it made me sad to think of that's happening to BMW. I test-drive a car that is brand new and was just released months earlier, and by comparison with my car, while it was refreshed in 2008, was originally released in 2003 and has the more satisfying driving experience of the two... how is that progress?

It's common knowledge that the 3 series is the baby of the lineup with the majority of sales, and they clearly didn't want to tinker with it too much by keeping the weight the same. Even then, all the adjustable this and that and all the technology they employ to make the car drive 'better' actually achieves the opposite as it further isolates the driver from the road. It's as if BMW is too worried that standard suspension alone cannot produce satisfying driving results, even though it did for decades.

Although I've always been a Bimmerphile, I can't follow BMW blindly into whatever unfortunate business decisions it chooses to make. The recent Car and Driver comparison test between the new M5, e63 AMG, and S6, in which the M5 came last, was really an eye opener (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test). If they want to water down their regular models to increase sales, I guess there's nothing to be done. But to decrease the 'driver's car' quality that used to be the hallmark of the M models is truly disappointing.

Thanks again for the courage to say what you did.
LOL

I had the same experience as you. When I test drove the F10 550i it felt like I was driving a Lexus. Unfortunately, I parted ways with my E60 550i and moved into the 1M over the M3. I love the S65, but the E9X is too porky. I'm a little disappointed that the M division wasn't able to achieve significant weight savings on the 1M, but it's the closest thing to what M used to stand for.
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      07-13-2012, 02:19 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
People who think BMW M has strayed from its roots have no idea what those roots are.
SO TRUE.
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      07-13-2012, 02:22 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaddiction View Post
Thanks for the tip - hope it works for me to join you all! Looks like the perfect way to break my M in at the track. I'm guessing this will be a vastly different experience from the time I took my old Mazda 3s hatch (not Speed!) out there for an HST day. I was probably the slowest car out there, but I sure had a lot of fun. Will be nice to have twice the torque to pull out of the tight corners!
Absolutely.

the HST days can be a little ummm.. interesting.... a BMW CCA event will be a bit more structured (read: safer).. Hope to see you there!
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      07-13-2012, 02:34 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
People who think BMW M has strayed from its roots have no idea what those roots are.
I believe it's a Canadian based clothing shop.
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      07-13-2012, 02:35 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by konaforever View Post
I believe it's a Canadian based clothing shop.
Yeah, but they really lost their way when they started selling coffee mugs and keychains too
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      07-13-2012, 04:29 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo
Quote:
Originally Posted by luis_m3 View Post
Mod, please close this thread; this has turned into an "I hate BMW for making too much money... I wished they made track-ready rockets from now on, even though I hardly ever track the damn thing anyways", or "The M Division is letting me down lately, I may have to move on to a Porsche".

To all; no, I am by no means a pro driver or constantly tracking my car, but I LOVE the fact that my M3 is a great daily driver, family car, and I whenever I choose to... I can take it to a track and just enjoy what this beautiful machine is best at.
who are you to ask a Mod to close the thread?

you don't like the thread, it's this simple: DON'T CLICK ON IT!
I guess you just don't get sarcasm... Sorry if I offended your favorite thread.
Mod, please do NOT close it.
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      07-13-2012, 09:51 PM   #324
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While I agree for the most part that the M brand has been "watered down" in recent years. All the blame can't be placed on the marketing people. Nobody has commented on the fact that auto racing has changed. The Ferrari F40, Jaguar XJ220 & McLaren F1 were all cars that were homologated in order to race in an FIA series. Sadly FIA GT1 no longer exists. So car companies pour money into what racing series they deem gets them the most bang for the buck.

I'm not a huge Nascar fan, but that used to be THE "race on Sunday sell on Monday" series. No one can argue that the Chevy's and Fords that race there now have nothing in common with the street cars.

Yes M cars are still great cars. (note how i said cars) No they're not street versions of race cars anymore. But what really is?!? Unless you have gobs of money to spend...

Just my two cents.
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      07-14-2012, 06:28 AM   #325
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Sadly this is what I felt when I started feeling confused about all the upcoming different and new models. It's starting to lose the feeling of passion and brand. I'm worried about the sense of belonging in ownership in the years to come. I'm a lover of the 3 series coupe but now its sounding like a 4 series. Exactly what is it? It's starting to feel like the marketing of Toyota or Kia. Soon there will be another off shoot from BMW like a Toyota/Lexus. I hope in 2 years when I change my car I will will have the same sense of belonging from my first BMW over a decade ago, and not feel confused.
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      07-14-2012, 11:17 AM   #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikesbikes View Post
While I agree for the most part that the M brand has been "watered down" in recent years. All the blame can't be placed on the marketing people. Nobody has commented on the fact that auto racing has changed. The Ferrari F40, Jaguar XJ220 & McLaren F1 were all cars that were homologated in order to race in an FIA series. Sadly FIA GT1 no longer exists. So car companies pour money into what racing series they deem gets them the most bang for the buck.

I'm not a huge Nascar fan, but that used to be THE "race on Sunday sell on Monday" series. No one can argue that the Chevy's and Fords that race there now have nothing in common with the street cars.

Yes M cars are still great cars. (note how i said cars) No they're not street versions of race cars anymore. But what really is?!? Unless you have gobs of money to spend...

Just my two cents.
This is so true! Look what it was the McLaren F1 and what it is the MP4-12C nowadays or compare the hype the Ferrrari 599 GTO was able to generate vs. the F40 or Enzo in the past. Lamborghini Aventador is mighty but would you compare the "impact" of it with the Countach? Things are watering down in everything in fact, not only in cars; in music, in literature, in cinema, just name it. There is no denying that while the technology is progressing we are also not passing through a time of genuine innovation and creativity. BMW and M are just following the tides to survive maybe.
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      07-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
People who think BMW M has strayed from its roots have no idea what those roots are.
Guess you never read the article in Roundel about 6 years ago with the then head of //M. He was asked what makes an M car and why there wasn't an X5M or M7. I wish I would have kept that issue since it showed how focused //M was at the time and explained the core values of the //M Philosophy at the time. But who would have known that //M would deviate so far from their core values.

.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      07-15-2012, 12:32 PM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinaldo View Post
Things are watering down in everything in fact, not only in cars; in music, in literature, in cinema, just name it. There is no denying that while the technology is progressing we are also not passing through a time of genuine innovation and creativity.
I agree if you add "off the shelf mass market" to your point.

Ever listen to a Starbucks order? Do you mod your car? How's BMW's Individual doing?

These days we don't want the same thing as the next guy, we want the same production thing to customize. We're hobbyists. Even with lattes.

Which brings up another point: I'm not a race car driver

I know.

But if I was ... you what I wouldn't do? Buy a mass produced luxury car with leather, A/C, and bluetooth. That comes with European delivery.

I haven't checked into it, but is that how F1s are delivered?

More on that here:
Quote:
My ill thought-through rant:

Mr Caswell doth protest too much: if he wants a race car then he should build one; Don't whine because BMW's 21st century mass market production factory won't do it for you... really?

Does any serious race car driver buy a factory built car with A/C, stereo, and leather interior and head to the track matrix?

As to "M used to mean something":
Uhhhh... You mean your poseur ass used to like the brand, I.e., the marketing? But now you dont because it's not quite poseur enough so you're calling people who like a fast factory luxury car poseurs?

Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

I Have a e93 and before that an S4. I never tracked the S4 and won't the e93. Sometimes i care about its fanciness but usually I don't. I just like my luxury cars fast and wicked sounding. I like scaring myself on the way to work. I like being able to pass anybody anytime and corner better and brake faster. If I appreciated the cool looks more I'd probably buy the orange thing but I don't so I have Jerez black. I do like my 2 tone interior though. I also like the engineering. I'd buy a koenigsegg if I wasnt too lazy to make a few mil.

Grow up Mr Caswell, and realize who you are ... I have*

(*except in those moments at wide open throttle when i get slight air coming off the freeway entry ramp and giggle like a little girl ... Or that killer sweeper freeway exit s-turn when I downsift to 3rd ... Or ...)
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      07-15-2012, 05:37 PM   #329
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That actually is a good description of what many, if not most, professional race car drivers own as street cars/daily drivers.


http://vehicle.ezinemark.com/persona...6ca0bb668.html
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Last edited by understeer; 07-15-2012 at 06:02 PM.
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      07-15-2012, 07:12 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by understeer View Post
That actually is a good description of what many, if not most, professional race car drivers own as street cars/daily drivers.


http://vehicle.ezinemark.com/persona...6ca0bb668.html

some of these race car drivers have terrible cars. come on now.
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