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      07-09-2007, 11:22 AM   #1
swamp2
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A plea for some common sense

The banter on this otherwise excellent and enjoyable board has got beyond tedious and beyond annoying here in the last couple of days. I have resorted to quite a few more slightly mean spirited replies in my frustration. I think all of those with any optimism and realism left have been put in this same defensive (then offensive) mode. I have found myself so frustrated that I have begun or ended many of my posts with a giant sigh of "ugh". I am not an admin here, and surely you don't have to listen to anything I have to say, but do please give it some thought. I did in writing this.

I am a skeptic by nature. I like facts and evidence, however, no one can deny the importance of emotion in driving. Since effectively "no one" (none of "us") has driven the car yet we must rely on those who have. I like to have the facts and evidence as well as my own direct hands on experience to make my judgments. However, until we can get the hands on all any of us will have is the experiences of others to help us learn. I will be massively disappointed if the car turns out to be a disappointment. So many of us will. Certainly this enormous expectation also places our delicate dreams on a very tall and very unstable pedestal. We'll each have to figure what it means to each of us for the car to be a disappointment. Some of us really do have totally unrealistic expectations, others will be pleased by anything faster than 4.8 0-60, a bit of fun on the back roads on the weekend and an M badge. I think most of us, however, have realistic expectations; we understand that automotive designers and engineers, especially in the market segment trying to bring maximum performance per dollar into mass production face immense challenges and must execute difficult compromises. We also understand that a car must meet some basic sales and marketing goals as well, less it will never make it off of the drawing board. In this same vein many of us need to give up the arm chair designer/engineer position we see ourselves in. Sure we can all hope and dream for a car released to our personal dream specs but let's not be so pompous to think we could lead the M division or design M cars. Many of us could probably contribute in a small way at a company like BMW but how many here have any automotive engineering background at all?

So back to the facts, what do we really know?

1. Quite a few journalists have spent some time behind the wheel of the car doing some fairly spirited driving. We have some preliminary write ups of their thoughts. More complete pictures, movies and extensive stories are in the works now and we will see them quite soon. Unfortunately, I think full instrumented tests and hard data on such things and acceleration and braking are some time away as instrumentation was not allowed during this round of access to the car.
2. Most of the folks agreed on most points about the car, those being:
2a. The car is darn fast in the straights and on the track.
2b. The new V8 is simply brilliant.
2c. The new V8 sounds suitable for an exotic (sure some said they missed the metallic rasp of the E46 M3 as well).
2d. There was some feeling that the steering had some problems; being too boosted/too light, not communicative enough, etc.
2e. The car has continued to add comfort as it has done continuously from E30 - E92, although it is probably louder as well.
2f. The car is likely >> RS4 in most pure performance aspects.
2g. When hammered, some of it uphill, the car gets about 11 mpg.
Other details we know:
3. The car out sprints the Ferrari 360 Modena from 0-1000m
4. The car will have an official BMW Nurburgring lap time of "definitely less than 8:10". This places it in quite a high echelon of cars such as the BMW M6, Ferrari 360 Modena and Porsche 911 Carerra S.

Call me a fool if you like but the future looks quite rosy to me.

Let's all try to do a bit better job of limiting the overly emotional posts, stick to the facts, stay on topic and minimize the speculation. Most importantly let's enjoy this board as THE best place to share the latest gossip on, the most accurate news of and all the details about our common interest and passion: the E90/E92 M3.

Cheers, peace and happy posting.

Last edited by swamp2; 07-10-2007 at 07:38 AM.
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      07-09-2007, 11:26 AM   #2
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FOOL :@) - Actually well said!
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      07-09-2007, 11:28 AM   #3
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AMEN!!!!
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      07-09-2007, 11:31 AM   #4
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      07-09-2007, 11:34 AM   #5
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I did not get through your whole post, but I agree with the first paragraph.

So I'll give you a hell yeah.

"HELL YEAH"
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      07-09-2007, 11:36 AM   #6
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Come on now

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I did not get through your whole post, but I agree with the first paragraph.

So I'll give you a hell yeah.

"HELL YEAH"
Come on now, it will take all of 2 minutes to read it all. You can do it.
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      07-09-2007, 11:42 AM   #7
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Good post, Swamp. I agree it is too early to make judgments about the car.

I think some posters here take some real delight in focusing on the negative aspects of the reviews thus far. Perhaps they have unrealistic expectations, or maybe the idea that car is a disappointment takes the sting out of not being able to buy it. I don't know and I don't care.

I will drive the car at the event in October before I make a final judgment.

Magazine reviews are not a reason to buy or not buy a car. The only useful information in most reviews is performance data. So far we have almost no real data. Things like steering feel are totally subjective, and dependent upon not only the perceptions of the writer, but also things like the roads, and for this car, even the mode to which the steering was set.

One interesting comment I have seen about the much-discussed steering feel came from Eni (a poster who has a history of access to inside info) over at germancarzone:

"There is nothing wrong with the steering. I got the hint the first bunch of production tires are not performing as good as expected - therefore a bit worse steering feel (prototype tires were much better). But that is already being addressed."
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      07-09-2007, 11:51 AM   #8
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Very well written!

I think that people will be very pleased after they have the opportunity to actually drive the upcoming M3. Either way, if I purchase an E90/E92 M3 it will be during the 2nd model year
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      07-09-2007, 11:55 AM   #9
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"There is nothing wrong with the steering. I got the hint the first bunch of production tires are not performing as good as expected - therefore a bit worse steering feel (prototype tires were much better). But that is already being addressed."

Well now I know there is a problem with these cars, I'll completely drop the negative stance and look forward to the fixed cars being given good reports.
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      07-09-2007, 11:55 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CnoteMD View Post
Either way, if I purchase an E90/E92 M3 it will be during the 2nd model year
My intention exactly. Let the prices cool down, bugs hammered out, etc...So, I asked my dealer when the '09 model will be available. Common sense dictates that BMW would start taking orders for that around September '08. He claimed the '09 model would not be available until May'09! I think we was bullshitting, trying to get me to put a deposit down for an '08. We'll see...
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      07-09-2007, 11:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The banter on this otherwise excellent and enjoyable board has got beyond tedious and beyond annoying here in the last couple of days...
Pretty much summarizes how most of us view the situation I think. If only the really negative people would stick to a SINGLE thread, and did not start a new thread every time another negative thought came to their minds...
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      07-09-2007, 12:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Pretty much summarizes how most of us view the situation I think. If only the really negative people would stick to a SINGLE thread, and did not start a new thread every time another negative thought came to their minds...
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71092

New home for the haters.

At least the bashing its dying down a bit.
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      07-09-2007, 12:23 PM   #13
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Common sense

My thoughts exactly. I don't even wan't to read many of these threads that are arguing diverse points of view based on very limited information and unrealistic expectations. It's going to be a great car for many and a good value, I believe.
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      07-09-2007, 12:32 PM   #14
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+1

My thoughts exactly, swamp. I just couldn't be bothered to make such a big post to spell it out. I really think everyone is a bit tetchy around here and feeling a bit dissapointed with the vague nature of the reviews... I'm still happy to bet fifty grand that I will love my new car!
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      07-09-2007, 02:12 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Most importantly let's enjoy this board as THE best place to share the latest gossip on, the most accurate news of and all the details about our common interest and passion: the E90/E92 M3.
Good post, swamp!

How many of the naysayers put themselves in the "driving shoes" of the people who were allowed some seat time? I don't think they completely realize that the invitees' time behind the wheel was limited, for one thing, and their impressions could have been shaped by something as simple as the car they'd driven to the test site. Sure maybe the new M3's steering felt light, compared to say, an E39 M5.......?

The journalists' job was to form a first impression, then write something up as quickly as possible to get it out there. How *some* naysayers can then extrapolate those "first drives" into "the sky is falling" and "M has failed us" is comical!
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      07-09-2007, 02:52 PM   #16
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Well said Swamp...awesome post

I have said it before and I will say it again...

Do you really think BMW would release the next generation M3 if it was inferior to the previous gen? I dont think so either

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      07-09-2007, 08:24 PM   #17
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I tend to agree -- excellent post. It is going to be great car; however, every M3 has been a different interpretation of the original, so why would we expect this one to be any different? Certainly, in a world of Mitsubishi Evos, STIs, Zo6 Vettes, and Lotus Exiges, the M3 has to be different, and the way that it will be different is to offer driving entertainment with refinement. That's the brand. Anybody can build a hot rod or go cart. The M does it all. Of course, at the front end of the release, no one cares about practicality and refinement -- only sexy performance attributes. The other side of the M3 will be appreciated in about two months after the lust has worn off. This car will be the wife, not the mistress.
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      07-10-2007, 12:51 AM   #18
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      07-10-2007, 01:45 AM   #19
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Good job Swamp
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      07-10-2007, 03:48 AM   #20
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Excellent post Swamp. Add me to the list of people who agree with you. This will be a great car that will be comfortable and fun to drive fast over years of ownership. BMW has likely built a car that will appeal to enthusiast nerds who read every scrap of info the second it appears on the internet as well as people who's pre-purchase research is looking at the M3 brouchure and picking a color at the dealership. 95% of these cars will never see a track and will never be driven anywhere near their full potential. It will still be a satisfying car as a daily driver, and for we enthusiasts as well.
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      07-10-2007, 03:55 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Call me a fool if you like but the future looks quite rosy to me.
You're tha man!

Best regards, south
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      07-10-2007, 07:09 AM   #22
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my best compliments

yes...my best compliments...This is an excellent and rationale post.
I love it. I am sure that the new M will be at least an excellent car.
I will put my hands on mine this October in Italy.And I will be really
happy to share my emotions in this forum if they will be accepted.
I know that in Usa you will have to wait for a longer delivery time, but
probably people like me will help your new cars being free from bugs.
So I cross my fingers and we will see.....

Have a nice day
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