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      06-06-2012, 05:17 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StatenEye 335i
No more money shifts.
This really made me laugh for some reason! :lol;
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      06-06-2012, 05:42 PM   #46
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Isn't this lock out tech what is in the new 6 speed manual for the M5?
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      06-06-2012, 05:53 PM   #47
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Great to see a continued investment in manual shifting. I love the feel and the experience - truly missing in DCT, SMG, PDK etc. Happy to see BMW continue to invest in this because Porsche is just killing it right now with the 991 - according to my rep 50% of the new custom order 911 sales from North America are all MT; big numbers not to ignore. Also there has been a renewed interest in MT with the release of the 7 speeds - great to see BMW doing this. Hopefully they can come out with something that can keep purists and "practicalists" all happy.

I found that my motorcycle tranny quick shifter is the best - allowing you bang, bang, bang up through the gears without clutching but then also allowing you to clutch, blog, and feather the engine the as needed when you wanted to come down and play. There is a reason DCT has not taken off in the Moto world - the current trannies are just sooo good.

P.S. There has been an unusual uptake in manual cars (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...lar-in-us.html) and I feel that with the innovation coming from Porsche and now BMW it will only be a matter of time before more manufacturers will change their minds on this. We MT drivers are very easily swayed by tranny selections and big shifts in customer purchases can be alerted by what you offer.
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      06-06-2012, 06:12 PM   #48
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Well I sir happen to agree, and was super disappointed BMW did not give the 1M a DCT option, as I'm sure they had enough data-logs to back it up. The way that trans shifts w/Boost in hand, is remarkable to say the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolren View Post
Thanks but give me DCT 7-speed anyday. Although I'm a good driver with a lot of experience in drifting, etc... but manual has been burried in my book.
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      06-06-2012, 06:31 PM   #49
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I am liking the idea of the clutchless manual. I've been a died-in-the-wool manual transmission fan ever since I got my very first car, so I never thought I'd say this, but, as predicted by folks older and possessed of more life experience than I, I think I am ready to make the change to an automatic. Thirty-five+ years of pushing a clutch, and I'm over it. I don't mind changing the gears, I mind pushing the clutch.

I probably have another 5-8 years of clutch pushing left in me, but that's about it. That may dovetail well with BMW's implementation schedule if the OP is right about long times to market. So if they go clutchless, I'm likely to sign up for one. Then again, in 5-8 years, I'll have finished (or nearly so) paying for my children's educations and cars and food, and wardrobes, and vacations, etc. that I'll once again be buying something I really want just because I want it. Right now, none of the cars fitting that description offer manual transmissions anyway, so we'll see what happens.
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      06-06-2012, 06:58 PM   #50
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Yes, yes, yes!
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      06-06-2012, 07:37 PM   #51
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Neat technology they're working with, always interested to see what they have behind the closed doors....
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      06-06-2012, 08:23 PM   #52
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I don't understand why they don't just make 6th gear longer? Take this 7 speed they have been developing, get rid of its 6th gear and end up with 4 accelerative gears, a 1:1 and a long over drive for gas mileage. Do we really need two separate over drive gears?

We have an F10 with the 8 speed auto and while it's a fantastic transmission, I've always thought it would be better if they got rid of 7th which is truly useless.
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      06-06-2012, 08:27 PM   #53
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Well if you're going to do shift by wire
Why can't you install a manual gearshift knob, that controls the automatic transmission?
So I tell the transmission when to shift
It would feel like a manual
Heck you could even have a drive by wire clutch
I always thought of that when I drive my wife's 8 speed X3
Great transmission, but it sucks cuz you feel totally disconnected from the shifting
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      06-06-2012, 08:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
I don't understand why they don't just make 6th gear longer? Take this 7 speed they have been developing, get rid of its 6th gear and end up with 4 accelerative gears, a 1:1 and a long over drive for gas mileage. Do we really need two separate over drive gears?

We have an F10 with the 8 speed auto and while it's a fantastic transmission, I've always thought it would be better if they got rid of 7th which is truly useless.
I wondered this myself -- then I realized that people lucky enough to be able to drive on the autobahn can actually redline 5th gear (~165 MPH) and continue accelerating, so those people probably don't want to drop from a gear that still offers pull down to a super sluggish gear that puts the revs way underneath the engine's power band when they want to continue accelerating.

But yeah, those of us in the US and most other countries where redlining 2nd is basically the speed limit and redlining 3rd risks your license could easily get by with just a taller 6th gear -- but think of the whining from enthusiasts if the 7-speed wasn't offered in their countries, never mind that it truly wouldn't make sense with the speed limits in those countries (there aren't even very many TRACKS in the world where any BMW would be able to exceed 165), plus they would hit the speed limiter before they hit redline in 5th anyway.
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Last edited by jphughan; 06-06-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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      06-06-2012, 09:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
Hopefully they just make a 7-speed manual and leave it at that. All this other BS is just another reason to go ahead and give up and buy an auto.

I've yet to drive an automatic that I prefer to a manual, and I've driven the best autos available. They're still not as good at knowing what you want as you are, and without a direct link to your brain stem, they never will be.
Knowing what "you" want isn't necessarily what's best for the car's performance.

I always find it amusing to hear the "must have manual" crowd chime in about connectivity or engagement. You will be significantly slower and at times make mistakes when shifting...something that will never happen with PDK/DCT/etc.

Drive what you want but there is no objective reason why a manual is better. The opposite cannot be said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning Hawk View Post
Now only if BMW could make their manuals more crisp and precise... And not so "slushy" in each gate...
This.

I can't understand all the BMW drivers that talk about "needing" a manual when BMW's system is far from being industry leading.
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      06-06-2012, 09:45 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
Knowing what "you" want isn't necessarily what's best for the car's performance.

I always find it amusing to hear the "must have manual" crowd chime in about connectivity or engagement. You will be significantly slower and at times make mistakes when shifting...something that will never happen with PDK/DCT/etc.

Drive what you want but there is no objective reason why a manual is better. The opposite cannot be said.
The best performance isn't always the most fun; people might prefer a Miata, S2000, or Cayman over other cars that might be faster but don't have as engaging a feel. And why are you hung up on getting an "objective reason" for what's better? Most of the appeal of cars, whether it's paint color, engine note, handling feel, overall styling, or yes, even transmission, is inherently SUBJECTIVE, and it's by those subjective measurements that people decide what is most appealing or enjoyable to them. For many people, the "objective" superiority of a DCT/PDK doesn't hold a candle to the subjective enjoyment of the clutch/blip/shift rhythm, always chasing the perfectly smooth shift, and the sense of accomplishment when YOU get it just right rather than just pulling a paddle and having the computer do it right for you every time. There's a certain joy that comes from honing a craft and getting more out of a car as you invest more effort into it. And no, BMW's manuals aren't the best, but for many they're still better than the alternative.

Drive what YOU want, but there's no reason why you should expect objective reasoning for people's preferences when it comes to cars.

Have you ever even owned a manual transmission driver's car?
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Last edited by jphughan; 06-06-2012 at 10:03 PM.
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      06-06-2012, 09:54 PM   #57
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an 8-slot manual gearbox without a clutch? I don't really like this idea... I'm currently driving a manual, but I will happily switch to DCT if this is the future of bmw manual gearbox...
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      06-06-2012, 10:15 PM   #58
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Need to drive it to see if I like it. Interesting though.
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      06-06-2012, 10:36 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnrockies View Post
I can't understand all the BMW drivers that talk about "needing" a manual when BMW's system is far from being industry leading.
Those who care about MT aren't arguing whether or not BMW's implementation is industry leading or not. Does it still work in street and track applications? Are there better options out there? Probably but the action of rowing your own gears with a clutch is still there. It doesn't matter if BMW has a mediocre MT or the best, those who want it just want it period.
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      06-06-2012, 11:10 PM   #60
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Nice! There is a future for us BMW MT drivers
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      06-07-2012, 01:16 AM   #61
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Nice idea. But that leaves you with less control of the car if you need a high rev in 2nd or 3rd gear.
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      06-07-2012, 05:10 AM   #62
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My feeling is that this will be a failed experiment - not technologically but from a driver's view.

In near as dammit 100% of reviews I've read of the new 7-speed manual 911 they all agree it's one gear too many to for clutch driving. You're not going to be concentrating enough of actual driving, and you're never going to be faster than the automated dual-clutch gearbox. They also agreed that in quick bends you're going to come off second-best everytime than when using the paddle-shift.

And as near as dammit 100% of reviewers have agreed the new M5's DCT is the dog's bollocks - i.e. near perfect.

The only reason BMW is doing this is because, for reasons known only to the Almighty, Americans are demanding manual M5s. Maybe they should demand rear leaf-spring suspensions too
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      06-07-2012, 05:17 AM   #63
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      06-07-2012, 05:17 AM   #64
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One more thing, I fail to see how this type of gearbox will be more rewarding/engaging - as BMW's electronics will see to it you cannot over or underrev even if you wilfully want to. So what exactly is the point of this other than re-inventing the wheel? That's what it amounts to.
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      06-07-2012, 07:56 AM   #65
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That's cool.
However, I think the real problem that the manual is facing is traffic. I have discussed this issue with my car friends a few times, and we all agree. For car enthusiasts, driving manual is really a joy. It's like playing game maybe. But when you are in the traffic, say after work, sometimes you really just want to take a break. It's like when you are extremely tired, would you want to play your favorite game or go to sleep?
I think one of the solutions is "hybrid transmission". It will weight a lot and the car company may not want to do that anyway, so I'm not going through the detail. It cant be a good selling point either. I do believe this can save the manual though.
Anyway, I'm just glad that BMW still cares about manual. Great relief for me...
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      06-07-2012, 08:19 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrypon83 View Post
That's cool.
However, I think the real problem that the manual is facing is traffic. I have discussed this issue with my car friends a few times, and we all agree. For car enthusiasts, driving manual is really a joy. It's like playing game maybe. But when you are in the traffic, say after work, sometimes you really just want to take a break. It's like when you are extremely tired, would you want to play your favorite game or go to sleep?
I think one of the solutions is "hybrid transmission". It will weight a lot and the car company may not want to do that anyway, so I'm not going through the detail. It cant be a good selling point either. I do believe this can save the manual though.
Anyway, I'm just glad that BMW still cares about manual. Great relief for me...
Exactly. This "hybrid transmission" you speak of could easily be something I suggested above, i.e. a DCT with an H-pattern shifter to allow you to select individual gears. In fact given the description of BMW's second design, I'm surprised they're not just doing that instead; it would have to be a lot cheaper to develop given that they already have the DCT compared to engineering a brand new transmission, and it sounds like it would do the exact same thing.
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