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      05-31-2012, 10:44 AM   #45
Fox128i
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewbacca View Post
This is all about personal prejudice and nothing to do with personal freedom.
Precisely!

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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
True Christians believe in treating others as we want to be treated, with no exceptions.
Agreed! Sadly however, I see the complete opposite happening on an almost daily basis. What's that old saying? Let he without sin cast the first stone? I suppose for some it's easier to accuse others of being a sinner when in fact the accuser is the one with the problem.

It is my belief that you should be free to practice any religion you want or none at all if you so choose. I really don't understand the never ending fascination with trying to out exactly what religion President Obama practices. It's none of my damned business what religion he practices nor do I care to know. Frankly, I don't give a rats arse what Romney believes when it comes to God or religion either. We have bigger issues to tackle than to worry about our Commander in Chief's religious views.
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Last edited by Fox128i; 05-31-2012 at 07:40 PM.
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      05-31-2012, 08:41 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Jewbacca View Post
Why do people care so much about gays being able to get married?

How does it affect my daily life in any negative way to allow them to be married?

I still have yet not heard an argument that effectively communicates this.
An older relative of mine is very anti-gay marriage, and I was asking him about this as I didnt understand the problem.

His explanation was that being married, in his mind, was like being in a special club. He actually tried to draw comparisons to being a licensed doctor (which he is NOT).

Anyway, he said that it makes him feel special knowing that he is a member of this club, because there are some restrictions to entry.
He said that if they opened it up to same sex "unions" or whatever you want to call it, then that is no different than lowering the requirement to call yourself a doctor. If they drop down entry requirements, suddenly it's not that special to be a member any more. To him, a first aid attendant should not be allowed to call themselves a doctor, just like a same sex union should not be allowed to call itself a marriage.

In his mind, same sex marriages are "inferior" to mixed-gender marriages because they are not endorsed in the bible.
He said he realizes that gay couples live together and do some things a hetero couple does, but cannot do other things a hetero couple can (conceive a child). He said hes not opposed to them living together, but calling them married "insults the title", the way a "real" doctor may be offended if you called a first aid attendant a doctor, even though by simply doing that you are not limiting what a real doctor can continue to do.

I briefly considered asking more about this, given that the gap between a first aid attendant and a doctor is HUGE, while some same sex couples I know are less dysfunctional than some hetero couple who are married, but I elected to drop it in the interest of harmony at the family gathering.

Anyway, not saying that I agree with it, nor that you should either, but it was an interesting perspective on why some folks might be opposed to the idea, which would appear to cause them no harm.
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      05-31-2012, 08:56 PM   #47
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I don't understand the analogy. Becoming a doctor involves years of difficult requirements, getting a marriage license has no requirements. It'd be nice if the explanation made sense.
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      05-31-2012, 10:00 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
An older relative of mine is very anti-gay marriage, and I was asking him about this as I didnt understand the problem.

His explanation was that being married, in his mind, was like being in a special club. He actually tried to draw comparisons to being a licensed doctor (which he is NOT).

Anyway, he said that it makes him feel special knowing that he is a member of this club, because there are some restrictions to entry.
He said that if they opened it up to same sex "unions" or whatever you want to call it, then that is no different than lowering the requirement to call yourself a doctor. If they drop down entry requirements, suddenly it's not that special to be a member any more.
I appreciate the response, but here's the flaw with your relative's argument....

If said "club" were a religious institution like an Episcopalian Church (which, I believe does recognize same sex marriages), the rules of that "club" are different than the rules of his "club" and since that "club" is recognized as a valid "club" by our government, than that marriage should also be recognized as legal by our government.

Your relative can rest easy in "knowing" that the same sex marriage performed in another "club" outside his own "club" is "inferior" to his, because it's not the "club" he belongs to, so it "must" by inferior.
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      05-31-2012, 11:56 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by E90SoFlo View Post
Please correct me on how what I said was false or not the truth. Or vulgar, it was even censored to begin with!!!!

So much for a freedom of speech. Because if its against gay people it is "secret" and everyone is afraid to talk about it.

But they can go off and rant and rave about gay pride. Thats prejudice


im editing the post because you found it offensive, and god forbid anyone gets offended in the united states.
oh lawd....you really are ignorant....this is a private website...the owner is free to censor anyone for any reason...the first amendment does not apply here...if you don't like it...move on...
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      06-01-2012, 02:11 AM   #50
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-Why is the state in the business of sanctioning "marriage" anyway?
-Civil unions should be the purview of the state (license you for receipt of all the goodies). Show up, pay your tax/fee, and voila, you are "unionized".
-Marriage should be in the domain of your church. Whatever makes you and yours happy.
-Get the government out of this business of trying to make moral judgements.
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      06-01-2012, 08:00 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
-Why is the state in the business of sanctioning "marriage" anyway?
-Civil unions should be the purview of the state (license you for receipt of all the goodies). Show up, pay your tax/fee, and voila, you are "unionized".
-Marriage should be in the domain of your church. Whatever makes you and yours happy.
-Get the government out of this business of trying to make moral judgements.
Can your church enable you to file joint/married with the IRS?
Can it make you a social security benefactor?
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      06-01-2012, 08:26 AM   #52
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I personally feel that the Mormon religion makes many grandiose claims that cannot be accepted by any rational minded person that thinks critically. To be fair though, so does every other religion I have encountered. So for those of you that feel they are crazy let's take this into account: Christianity believes in a guy that not only watches what you do but also what you think. He cares about the position you have sex in and whether or not you talk to him enough. He also sent his son to Earth to save us all from a plan of his devising (since he is omnipotent and omniscient) and this son was born of a virgin, walked on water, cured the blind and even rose from the dead. None of these claims are ridiculous though, right? The only thing that separates insanity from religion is the popularity of the idea; unfortunately as an idea grows in popularity it does not also grow in truth.

The point I am getting at is this: I too think Mormons have insane beliefs, but odds are that a lot of people throwing stones here have equally insane ideas that they cling on to which have little to no evidence supporting them. To say it's crazy that they think the Garden of Eden was in the US and then you turn around go talk to an imaginary man floating in the sky (pray) seems a bit hypocritical.
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      06-01-2012, 08:30 AM   #53
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^^^ +1
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      06-01-2012, 09:27 AM   #54
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^^^ +2
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      06-01-2012, 10:21 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesterEXW View Post
I personally feel that the Mormon religion makes many grandiose claims that cannot be accepted by any rational minded person that thinks critically. To be fair though, so does every other religion I have encountered. So for those of you that feel they are crazy let's take this into account: Christianity believes in a guy that not only watches what you do but also what you think. He cares about the position you have sex in and whether or not you talk to him enough. He also sent his son to Earth to save us all from a plan of his devising (since he is omnipotent and omniscient) and this son was born of a virgin, walked on water, cured the blind and even rose from the dead. None of these claims are ridiculous though, right? The only thing that separates insanity from religion is the popularity of the idea; unfortunately as an idea grows in popularity it does not also grow in truth.

The point I am getting at is this: I too think Mormons have insane beliefs, but odds are that a lot of people throwing stones here have equally insane ideas that they cling on to which have little to no evidence supporting them. To say it's crazy that they think the Garden of Eden was in the US and then you turn around go talk to an imaginary man floating in the sky (pray) seems a bit hypocritical.
Could not have said it better myself.
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      06-01-2012, 10:30 AM   #56
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Glad it didn't come across as too dickish then. I was trying to express the hypocrisy involved in mocking others beliefs when many throwing stones have ideas that are equally irrational. I wasn't trying to bash Christianity specifically, just happened to be an easy (and likely most pertinent) example for people on here to relate to. Many of us, myself included at times forget how societal norms can effect our world view and skew our outlook. It's good to step back and look at the irony of our of beliefs when compared to others and have a reality check.
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      06-01-2012, 12:35 PM   #57
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Mormons are funny.
Who/what are mormons?
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      06-01-2012, 03:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by JesterEXW View Post
Glad it didn't come across as too dickish then. I was trying to express the hypocrisy involved in mocking others beliefs when many throwing stones have ideas that are equally irrational. I wasn't trying to bash Christianity specifically, just happened to be an easy (and likely most pertinent) example for people on here to relate to. Many of us, myself included at times forget how societal norms can effect our world view and skew our outlook. It's good to step back and look at the irony of our of beliefs when compared to others and have a reality check.
No, I personally don't think you were. You summed up exactly what I was thinking. You did a right good job of it too, IMHO.
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      06-01-2012, 03:31 PM   #59
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Much appreciated, I was waiting for some serious flames. Lol
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      06-01-2012, 03:58 PM   #60
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Wow marriage is a club and like being a doctor. That is so out there my brain cramps trying to get it (it does appear though that BMW owners may be atheists disproportionately to the rest of the U.S. Interesting).

Anyhow, we should all be a whole lot less worried about who believes what and who they sleep with and a whole lot more concerned about what this economy (if it doesn't improve soon) means to our kids and someday their kids. I hope and I believe that it will be the only issue that matters as November nears...
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      06-01-2012, 05:11 PM   #61
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Much appreciated, I was waiting for some serious flames. Lol
The night is young, we might see fireworks before it's all said and done.
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      06-01-2012, 05:17 PM   #62
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Haha very true but I'm up for a challenge.
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      06-01-2012, 05:36 PM   #63
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I'm a conservative and here are my views on social issues:
1) I do not support abortions but would not outlaw them.
2) I don't care if someone is gay or not as it doesn't affect me but they shouldn't be allowed to marry because there will be lots of abuse to the system as marriage will be between anyone and the rights will be abused.
3.) There shouldn't be government only run healthcare.
4.) Welfare should exist because the poor should be taken care of however it has expanded so much in the past decade it's produced a government dependent and entitled society.
5) I'm jetlagged and can't think of more points but the liberal portrayal of conservatives isn't that accurate. Also, a fun fact about me is that over half of my family (excluding parents) are communists.
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      06-01-2012, 06:53 PM   #64
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I don't care if someone is gay or not as it doesn't affect me but they shouldn't be allowed to marry because there will be lots of abuse to the system as marriage will be between anyone and the rights will be abused.
How does same-sex marriage increase the abuse you're speaking of? If I want to cover my roomate on my insurance, how does it matter if the roomate is same sex or opposite?
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There shouldn't be government only run healthcare.
So you want to abolish Medicaire? That won't fly.
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      06-01-2012, 07:49 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Jewbacca View Post
I appreciate the response, but here's the flaw with your relative's argument....
The flaw? As in, only 1 flaw? Oh, you are funny !

Without a full transcript of the discussion; to add a bit more detail; basically he sees life, giving life or saving a life as sacred, special thing. I think that's how he was trying to tie in the whole doctor thing.

To him, being married (hetero couple only) is a special thing because they can create life, which is a big deal to him, just like how doctors can save a life. But, a gay couple cannot independently create a new life on their own, so the thing that makes marriage sacred (to him) is missing, so it's an insult to call a gay union a "marriage" as it lacks the 1 key ability that is a big part of the definition of marriage to him. Also, someone who cannot save a life should not be called a doctor as it insults or lessens what it means to be a doctor.

Obviously there are a million logic holes there (non-doctors can save a life if they perform CPR, hetero couples who cannot/choose not to have children are not creating life, but he seems to have no problem with them being "married", etc)

As I said, I know at his age I'm not changing his mind, and ruining a family dinner by challenging him further seemed pointless, but it was in interesting glimpse into his head.

It was fascinating the way he said it very matter-of-factly, as if everyone listening would agree totally and it was all sensible and plausible. There was NO expectation on his part that anything he said could possibly be open to challenge or a different interpretation.

It reminded me of others who are deeply religious, talking about things like walking on water, being born to virgin mother, magic protective underwear, etc. For some reason, these arguments are never presented like "this might sound crazy, but...", its always stated as if it's as easy to believe and as obvious as 1+1=2.

The unsaid implication is that the listener must be the nutty one if they challenge anything being said, the content of the lecture is totally sane....
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      06-01-2012, 08:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Can your church enable you to file joint/married with the IRS?
Can it make you a social security benefactor?

My second bullet is pretty clear, but I'll expand.

Move the state away from marriage and restrict it to licensing civil unions for any and all comers which addresses your questions. The civil union "license" would provide necessary documentation for all "bennies" or obligations.

Marriage, a hot button word for some, should be the purview of the individual and their church (or whatever entity they choose). Officiants, small animals, veils, lumberjack shirts, whatever floats their boat.

I don't want the government making these sort of decisions, quality cuts, judgements. Show up, pay your fee, you are legit. However, if a church does or does not want to "marry" someone it should be their call.
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