BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Lux Angel Eyes
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-02-2012, 03:34 PM   #1
BimmFiniti
Private First Class
BimmFiniti's Avatar
United_States
3
Rep
104
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 BMW M3 Sedan
Join Date: May 2010
Location: WA

iTrader: (0)

Has Audi overtaken BMW with performance cars?

Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:
  • Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away
  • Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner
  • Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.
__________________
2006 Cayman S
2010 E90 M3
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 03:38 PM   #2
S65NAPWR
Lieutenant
United_States
11
Rep
557
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Tri-State

iTrader: (0)

meh...
__________________
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 03:49 PM   #3
Pontrelli
Banned
1
Rep
157
Posts

 
Drives: e92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Partly why BMW is moving towards turbos..
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 03:58 PM   #4
Xcelrrate
Driver
Xcelrrate's Avatar
United_States
5
Rep
371
Posts

 
Drives: E90 ///M3
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Las Vegas, NV

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by S65NAPWR View Post
meh...
+1
__________________

'08 Jerez Black E90 ///M3
Pics of my Ride
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 04:00 PM   #5
Mr. ///M3 RD
Major General
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
Canada
147
Rep
7,863
Posts

 
Drives: E350 & 280 SL on Weekends :)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmFiniti View Post
Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:
  • Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away
  • Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner
  • Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.
You make some good points .... I wonder about this as well.

BTW, I agree on your about your 330i, I think the gear shift on our 1987 535is is smooth as silk compared to the e92 M3 MT I call it a night and day comparison.
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 04:12 PM   #6
bimmergoat
Private First Class
10
Rep
162
Posts

 
Drives: M3 E90 Jerez Black
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: charlotte

iTrader: (0)

I just don't trust Audi in terms of reliability. My experience with my former s4 was an absolute nightmare. I've several friends who have weird electrical gremlins and other issues with Audi. I would perhaps lease an Audi but would never purchase another one.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 04:44 PM   #7
regensburg94
Private First Class
United_States
1
Rep
158
Posts

 
Drives: 2006 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

Yes, BMW is losing its way for sure.

Not just Motor Trend but a number of magazines have cited the new cars (3 Series, 5 Series) as not quite up to the mark of previous generations.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:10 PM   #8
FogCityM3
Lieutenant Colonel
FogCityM3's Avatar
35
Rep
1,732
Posts

 
Drives: M3 (E90)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

Definitely Audi is gaining the upper hand with regard to the A4/S4, A6/S6, and A8/S8 vis a vis the new generation BMWs across several comparison tests (and vis-a-vis the consumer). So far the E9x M3 has remained untouchable, but that too will probably change with the F80. It's almost like a perfect role-reversal and a little troubling given BMW had a nearly 50 year dynasty of producing performance sedans that were beyond reproach. Audi has strived to become BMW while BMW is trying to be more like Audi. Short term that will probably work for BMW, but longer-term any company in any industry that abandons its core values or tries to be something else usually doesn't pan out well. Even in the case of Porsche, whom people give a lot of heat for SUVs, large sedans, etc, is still building performance category leaders embracing and emphasizing Porsche's core performance strengths that it built up over decades. The 911 is the epitome of this philosophy...Porsche invested in the same styling/engine setup since the early 60s and faced a ton of criticism for sticking to and reinvesting in the formula until all of a sudden, they nearly perfected the car (despite the 'suboptimal' back of the rear axle engine setup).

Last edited by FogCityM3; 12-02-2012 at 05:22 PM.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:19 PM   #9
SouthShoreM3
Passes everything but the gas station
United_States
12
Rep
834
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 E90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (2)

I was just reading that article. Audi has taken great strides to be as competitive as possible in the various car segments.

Look at what you get for the pricing that they offer theirs cars at. The S7 is almost $30k cheaper, comes with better performance, interior is top notch (seen in person and drove the S7 on Friday) and what you get as a base package is something heavily optioned in a BMW, MB, Porsche, etc..

If I were shopping for this type of vehicle, the S7 would be a no brainer in my mind.

Also, can we all agree on what the hell BMW IS DOING WITH THEIR BRAKES!!! Sliding calipers belong on a $20k car. Even Buick these days has brembos in their "sportier" cars.

Get with the program BMW.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:21 PM   #10
6spdg37s
Captain
20
Rep
753
Posts

 
Drives: none
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: dirty jerz

iTrader: (3)

I really do not like audis... I've worked on them , driven them, etc; still not a fan
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:23 PM   #11
MDyDinanM
OIF Veteran
MDyDinanM's Avatar
United_States
57
Rep
2,090
Posts

 
Drives: ///M
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: East Coast

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M5  [3.44]
What about Audi's reliability and ease to repair (especially DIY)?

I've been reading in another forum that Audi < BMW in terms of reliability, and Audi cars break down often. Wonder if it's all subjective.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:28 PM   #12
PrimoM3
Chemofski
PrimoM3's Avatar
United_States
19
Rep
1,294
Posts

 
Drives: '13 X5M
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Coast, U.S.

iTrader: (0)

They're venturing into a new direction where the competition has more experience and strength. They've seen a lot of their series car buyers move to other brands, namely Audi, so they're changing the series cars to appeal to those buyers. Making them softer makes for a worse platform for M to work with, and in a changing environment with strict fuel requirements and safety standards. Basically, market and political forces.

It's all cyclical though... I think these are teething problems we'll continue to see for a few years as BMW learns forced induction, FWD and AWD, electric steering, etc. BMW and M are innovative though, so I believe in time we'll see the pendulum swing back this way.

For now, I'll enjoy my 2013 M3. Still near perfect 6 years into the model.
__________________
'13 Individual Frozen Brilliant White ///M3 Coupe
Ordered 2/15/12 | Euro Delivery on 9/21/12 | U.S. Redelivery on 12/6/12 | Motor Dead on 7/15/13

'13 Space Gray/Mugello Red X5///M
Pavement Punisher | Snow Muncher | Family and Board Hauler | Roadtripper
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:35 PM   #13
FogCityM3
Lieutenant Colonel
FogCityM3's Avatar
35
Rep
1,732
Posts

 
Drives: M3 (E90)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (0)

Good points...the engineering and innovation cultures at BMW are still good, so maybe not all hope is lost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimoM3 View Post
They're venturing into a new direction where the competition has more experience and strength. They've seen a lot of their series car buyers move to other brands, namely Audi, so they're changing the series cars to appeal to those buyers. Making them softer makes for a worse platform for M to work with, and in a changing environment with strict fuel requirements and safety standards. Basically, market and political forces.

It's all cyclical though... I think these are teething problems we'll continue to see for a few years as BMW learns forced induction, FWD and AWD, electric steering, etc. BMW and M are innovative though, so I believe in time we'll see the pendulum swing back this way.

For now, I'll enjoy my 2013 M3. Still near perfect 6 years into the model.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:37 PM   #14
Alex07M3
Colonel
26
Rep
2,124
Posts

 
Drives: E92 M3, Evo X MR, A4 Allroad
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Gatineau

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmFiniti View Post
Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:[*]Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away[*]Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner[*]Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.
You could also add:
* S4 > F30 335i
* S6 > 535i
* R8 V10 Plus > anything from BMW
__________________
ESS VT1, M Performance exhaust, Turner test pipes, KW V3s, Michelin PSS 255/295
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 05:59 PM   #15
FormulaMMM
Major
FormulaMMM's Avatar
United_States
25
Rep
1,435
Posts

 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Midwest

iTrader: (1)

No, I don't think that Audi has overtaken BMW. The current M3 triumphs over the much newer RS5 in nearly every comparison test. The 1M thrashes the TT-RS. And if you want a taste of artificial steering you should drive the new S4.

I think that it's closer than ever in the large performance saloon category, specifically. The M5, Panamera, E63, S models, XFR, etc. all seem legit options.

I am very anxious to see what ///M does with the F80 M3. They seem to be on the right path with it. (EDIT: Given current restrictions.. I'd much prefer an updated S65 + 100 hp )
__________________
DCT E90 M3: Akrapovic Evolution, KW Clubsport, Stoptech ST-40 Front + Pagid RS29 | Stock Rear + Stoptech SP, Apex ARC-8 + Hankook Ventus S1 noble2 275/35/18 (street), Apex EC-7 18x10 ET25 + Nitto NT01 275/35/18 (track), tbd...
Past: Velos Designwerks Tune, Megan Racing Catback, Macht Schnell Filter

Last edited by FormulaMMM; 12-02-2012 at 06:19 PM.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 06:02 PM   #16
slicer
Brigadier General
slicer's Avatar
61
Rep
3,935
Posts

 
Drives: '13 E92 M3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (19)

I like Audi's styling but I have found BMW to be much more reliable and a better balanced chassis. I used to live in MN so Audi Quattro was great for winter driving. I used to have an RS6, S4, S8 and a Q7. All of those cars had odd repair needs. S4 needed a new transmission after 12k miles, Q7 needed an engine repair that took 2 weeks (at 20k miles) and the RS6 had recurring suspension issues. The S8 had a weird electronic glitch that required a reset of the computer to fix (found this out after two shops made multiple attempts to fix over a few weeks). I think Audi is improving but I have had 0 issues with my M3 after 36k miles. Same was true for my '05 e36 M3 and '01 328i back in the day....
__________________
ALL PARTS FOR SALE (click links and/or Send me a PM) -
KW Clubsport 3-way, Mode Carbon GTS Wing, BMW Pedals Billet Extended DCT Paddles, Advan TC3 (9.5/10.5), Planted E92 Floor Mounts, Schroth Quick Fit Pro Harnesses (Red - E82/E90/E92 Version)
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 06:31 PM   #17
PrimoM3
Chemofski
PrimoM3's Avatar
United_States
19
Rep
1,294
Posts

 
Drives: '13 X5M
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Coast, U.S.

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
I have had 0 issues with my M3 after 36k miles. Same was true for my '05 e36 M3 and '01 328i back in the day....
I think you accidentally typed either a 0 instead of a 9, or a 3 instead of a 4.
Did you have a '95 e36 or '05 e46?
__________________
'13 Individual Frozen Brilliant White ///M3 Coupe
Ordered 2/15/12 | Euro Delivery on 9/21/12 | U.S. Redelivery on 12/6/12 | Motor Dead on 7/15/13

'13 Space Gray/Mugello Red X5///M
Pavement Punisher | Snow Muncher | Family and Board Hauler | Roadtripper
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 06:41 PM   #18
SouthShoreM3
Passes everything but the gas station
United_States
12
Rep
834
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 E90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Boston, MA

iTrader: (2)

I completely agree with the reliability factor of BMW being far superior. I have come from a long line of RS, S, and AMG models. All of these cars had more issues than you could possibly imagine. Especially the 4.2 V8 platform from Audi.

The only time I have my M in the shop is for performance or cosmetic reasons!

This is why I went to BMW in 2010

I still dabble with the RS brand within Audi (owning a TTRS). I am very happy with vehicle so far. Is it perfect..no. Mostly from a technology standpoint and I wish the seats were better bolstered. But, the engine and tranny have been rock solid and it's never in the shop..knock on wood..ha!

Some great points being made here.. A lot of manufacturers are trying to compete with BMW in reliability. And like one of the posters mentioned, BMW is creating vehicles to compete and regain market share from the brands that have taken business away. As others have mentioned, EPA guidelines are strict these days it almost as though car makers are told how they are allowed to make their cars (except for a few brands like the new Viper as just one example).

One thing in the background not car related is the customer service from BMW. Last year BMW sent me this beautiful carbon fiber pen just as a thank you( I'm sure many of you got this as well). In all the years I've owned Audi and MB, all I get is a crappy magazine and a mass produced letter. BMW goes above and beyond in customer satisfaction. As a result you get loyalty from the customer. I know I will always have a BMW in my garage in one way or another.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 06:46 PM   #19
Endless619
DHS
Endless619's Avatar
Spain
54
Rep
3,930
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 Range Rover Black Edition
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Disneyland

iTrader: (14)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmFiniti View Post
Recent comparison tests show a disturbing trend with new BMW models:
  • Motor Trend, S8 vs Alpina B7: S8 blew it away
  • Road and Track, S7 vs 650 Gran Coupe: S7 pretty clear winner
  • Motor Trend, Panamera GTS (not Audi, I realize) vs M5: M5 absolutely panned as disappointing, big, imprecise

Audi's small Turbo engines seem to be better than BMW's and they also seem to be building lighter, more sporting cars. BMW's electric steering has been criticized as artificial and lacking feel. What the heck is BMW doing? Have they lost the sporting "edge"?

I'm glad I have a "legit" sporting BMW with my E90 (although the steering in my E46 330i is better), but I'm a bit worried about the M3 (and M4?) and whether it will be better than its competition.
Why is this even a thread? Volkswago/Audi are not on the same planet. I wouldn't look twice at a Volkswagon/Audi unless its an SUV. That said. I recall a thread where Volkswagon/Audi was being compared to Honda/Acura as they should be. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Sorry to rant but not a fan.
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 06:51 PM   #20
Mr. ///M3 RD
Major General
Mr. ///M3 RD's Avatar
Canada
147
Rep
7,863
Posts

 
Drives: E350 & 280 SL on Weekends :)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: GTA, Ontario - Canada

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Having driven BMW' for 25 years now, I have a strong feeling that it's all about Marketing now ... I might be wrong ... Some years back the Auto Industry was looking at BMW ... Trying to follow them I mean ... I strongly think that trend is changing.

Too bad ...
__________________
Cheers, Rolf-Dieter

Life will take us to some interesting places, fortunately The ///M3 will too with a many of us know this very well
---> Click here for some good stuff I found
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 06:55 PM   #21
1MOREMOD
2014 Track Days - 11|Ridge 1:52:24|Pacific 1:35:72
1MOREMOD's Avatar
United_States
172
Rep
12,933
Posts

 
Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3RD View Post
Having driven BMW' for 25 years now, I have a strong feeling that it's all about Marketing now ... I might be wrong ... Some years back the Auto Industry was looking at BMW ... Trying to follow them I mean ... I strongly think that trend is changing.

Too bad ...
yeah i have this feeling as well. bmw wont be getting any new business from me i dont think. the greatest drivers cars may have already been made.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW exhaust|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2012, 07:09 PM   #22
gblansten
Beandoc
gblansten's Avatar
United_States
29
Rep
2,244
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 BMW M5 SG/SS
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

If my M3 were totaled right now I would get an Audi RS5. OTOH, when my lease is up I suspect the next M3 will be the car to get. It's a constant battle of competitors and I love it.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:04 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST