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      05-18-2012, 12:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
If you're near orange county, I'll be willing to take you on a ride with 1 of my front bolts completely removed, with my spacers on, and bet there would be ZERO vibrations.

**EDIT** If you don't believe me, just google "one missing lug bolt" and see how many people noticed a lug bolt missing by random visual inspection, not by excessive vibrations in the car.
My buddy lost one stud on his 04 STi (out of 5). The entire wheel would physically shift when you came to a stop. It was audible and you could feel it through the steering wheel. This was on a front wheel.
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      05-18-2012, 12:09 PM   #90
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I know exactly what happened. The wheel bolts were loose. Period.

How do I know? Because I have a MS 10mm spacer in my garage that looks a lot like that one.

The way the hub assembly works is based on proper alignment, provided by the hubcentric ring, and compression provided by the bolts. When the bolts are tightened to 90 lb-ft, they exert tons of pressure clamping the whole assembly together. If nothing moves, then it can carry a huge load. Once something moves in the assembly, the metal parts grind against each other, wear happens and things get looser and looser until something breaks.

Nobody has said anything about the rim - is the centerbore proper on the rim - 72.5mm? If it's an E39 rim with a 74mm centerbore, the gap is enough to cause a problem like this.
BINGO..I know no one wants to say OP was at fault but in this case sorry..he was
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      05-18-2012, 12:27 PM   #91
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I don't see any feasible way a spacer could break/tear like that unless the bolts holding the wheel either backed out or broke first allowing the wheel to shift outward. There is a line on the spacer where the break on it occurred that looks like it could have only occurred when the edge of the wheel moved outward to where it was past the lip of the hub allowing the wheel to sheer of the lip of the spacer.
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      05-18-2012, 12:42 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
So, forgive the somewhat less than official links, i'll try to post as many as I can to get the message across. I thought this was common sense but I guess the sky must be green for some people too.........


http://konigusa.net/nodisplay/hub-ce...nd-centerbore/




http://www.phantasmusa.com/ichiba-wh...version-2.html




http://www.stancedandenhanced.com/t4...er-faq/?page=1




......about being dangerous, I'm not the one running a lugcentric setup on a hubcentric car...
OMG. I would never buy any products from any of those companies. Terrible information being pass about. Just TERRIBLE.
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      05-18-2012, 12:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
OMG. I would never buy any products from any of those companies. Terrible information being pass about. Just TERRIBLE.
How do you not understand hubcentric wheel design where the center bore of the wheel and the wheel hub are the load bearing parts??????? Yes the part that sticks out is part of the hub!
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      05-18-2012, 12:52 PM   #94
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If there was zero play in a spacer you'd never be able to get it on or off. Zero play = press fit.
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      05-18-2012, 12:55 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
How do you not understand hubcentric wheel design where the center bore of the wheel and the wheel hub are the load bearing parts??????? Yes the part that sticks out is part of the hub!
FYI>>just so you know the HACK is a driving instructor..so he knows a thing or two
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      05-18-2012, 12:56 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
If there was zero play in a spacer you'd never be able to get it on or off. Zero play = press fit.
Zero play between the wheel and the front face of the spacer is what is meant..and at least thats what I meant
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      05-18-2012, 01:04 PM   #97
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tibra - sorry I was responding to someone else

Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
Seeing as these were hubcentric spacers, do you really think that's plausible. Keep in mind the wheel centerbore is going to rest on the spacer snugly, and then the spacer should mate to the wheel hub snugly as well. There should be ZERO play. So even if the bolts were undertorqued, if the wheel was sitting on the spacer hub and the spacer was sitting on the wheel hub, there should still be minimal to no movement.
If there was zero play you'd have to press them on and off. There is always some play in anything you can remove by hand.

The hub carries the load, true, the load is transmitted through the tension on the bolts/lugs, which only works reliably because they aren't constantly battered by the wheel sliding around on the hub face, hence hub-centricity for location purposes. That weenie little 1/16" thick lip on the hub doesn't carry the majority of it. Go ahead and put 3000+lbs of force on that little lip and let us know what happens, please take video.
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      05-18-2012, 01:06 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
FYI>>just so you know the HACK is a driving instructor..so he knows a thing or two
As well as worked for several major automotive aftermarket manufacturers in marketing, product planning, QA and engineering, and a major tire manufacturer as well...

But hey. What do I know.
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No way I'd ever take my BMW to the track.
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Then why do you have $3,000 worth of suspension mods on your car?
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      05-18-2012, 01:09 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
FYI>>just so you know the HACK is a driving instructor..so he knows a thing or two
Just beacuse he's a driving instructor doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about in regards to every mechanical nuance of a car. I know where you're going to go with this, not saying I do either, but in this case, I'm pointing out that he is simply misinformed.

I'm going to stop responding to this thread, It's not constructive. I still uphold my point of view on the topic. Lug bolts are not the primary load bearing points on a modern hubcentric wheel and hub design.
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      05-18-2012, 01:23 PM   #100
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When do you guys torque the lugs at a track day? Before going out when it's had time to cool down, or when it's still hot after a session?
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      05-18-2012, 01:24 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garage5 View Post
Has anyone else broken a macht snell spacer?
Any sort of warranty on these?
We have installed many MS spacers on our customers' cars even myself. We only had issue with a pair of 10mm spacers. MS explained that last run of their 10mm spacers were slightly out of tolerance after machining.

I'm sure Macht Schnell will take care of it for you. They have been very responsive for me. I'm sure they will get you taken care of. Talk to Tom @ Macht Schnell.

Last edited by wwjd15; 05-18-2012 at 02:52 PM.
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      05-18-2012, 01:25 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
FYI>>just so you know the HACK is a driving instructor..so he knows a thing or two
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
Just beacuse he's a driving instructor doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about in regards to every mechanical nuance of a car. I know where you're going to go with this, not saying I do either, but in this case, I'm pointing out that he is simply misinformed.

I'm going to stop responding to this thread, It's not constructive. I still uphold my point of view on the topic. Lug bolts are not the primary load bearing points on a modern hubcentric wheel and hub design.
One last post..

Just to prove my point, The HACK seems to think a 2012 Competition M3 has a V10!!!!!!!!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...4#post11988244
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      05-18-2012, 01:31 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
One last post..

Just to prove my point, The HACK seems to think a 2012 Competition M3 has a V10!!!!!!!!

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...4#post11988244
Huh? That was me who posted that and it was for fun if you were to read the posts above mine. OP was asking about mods to do. Reading is fundamental.
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      05-18-2012, 01:35 PM   #104
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Huh? That was me who posted that and it was for fun if you were to read the posts above mine. Reading is fundamental.
The post before yours may have been a tiny bit over the top, but still much more in the realm of possibility.

Not much reading comprehension can be had behind 4 letters and 2 numbers.

**EDIT** Wondering if you guys noticed that an EAS/MS reseller is proving my point. haha.
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      05-18-2012, 01:37 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
The post before yours may have been a tiny bit over the top, but still much more in the realm of possibility.

Not much reading comprehension can be had behind 4 letters and 2 numbers.

**EDIT** Wondering if you guys noticed that an EAS/MS reseller is proving my point. haha.
Realm or not, it was clearly in fun. No claim was made about what engine came in the car. You assumed that fact on your own to try and prove an entirely different member wrong.
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      05-18-2012, 01:41 PM   #106
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Realm or not, it was clearly in fun. No claim was made about what engine came in the car. You assumed that fact on your own to try and prove an entirely different member wrong.
So.... Are you saying that your post of "Congrats. V10 FTW!" was a clear and concise expression of either your humor or a valid suggestion to the original poster?
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      05-18-2012, 01:45 PM   #107
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So.... Are you saying that your post of "Congrats. V10 FTW!" was a clear and concise expression of either your humor or a valid suggestion to the original poster?
Yes, when you play it against the post above. On it's own without the above post, then you would have a case. Not a big deal anyway even though you are trying to make it one.

I know you have a huge beef with EAS. I can completely feel for you in regards to vendors not treating you right. But trying to make any issue that has their name in it into something that it may or may not be really isn't needed.

People agree and they disagree. In this case the majority seem to disagree with you on this topic. No biggie, just take it as it is.
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      05-18-2012, 01:53 PM   #108
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Yes, when you play it against the post above. On it's own without the above post, then you would have a case. Not a big deal anyway even though you are trying to make it one.

I know you have a huge beef with EAS. I can completely feel for you in regards to vendors not treating you right. But trying to make any issue that has their name in it into something that it may or may not be really isn't needed.

People agree and they disagree. In this case the majority seem to disagree with you on this topic. No biggie, just take it as it is.
Let's take a trip in the wayyy back machine....

My first post stated that I too thought the spacer only failed due to failure of the bolts. You seem to think it's perfectly ok that EAS/MS resells them, but apparently since they may or may not manufacture them, completely gets them off the hook for any QC concerns.

Now, fast forward and we see more evidence that EAS/MS has had QC issues with spacers as well.

With all this said, can you honestly say you would run EAS/MS spacers on your own vehicle, even if it's just for daily driving purposes?

Beyond what my feelings of EAS or Macht Schnell may be, these are facts. Yes I may have bias against EAS or MS, but that doesn't mean I can't be objective. Truth is, they make an inferior product, and to use your logic, the end customer can have no faith in the bolts they supply, and at best only questionable faith in the strength of the branded spacers.
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      05-18-2012, 01:56 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
Let's take a trip in the wayyy back machine....

My first post stated that I too thought the spacer only failed due to failure of the bolts. You seem to think it's perfectly ok that EAS/MS resells them, but apparently since they may or may not manufacture them, completely gets them off the hook for any QC concerns.

Now, fast forward and we see more evidence that EAS/MS has had QC issues with spacers as well.

With all this said, can you honestly say you would run EAS/MS spacers on your own vehicle, even if it's just for daily driving purposes?

Beyond what my feelings of EAS or Macht Schnell may be, these are facts. Yes I may have bias against EAS or MS, but that doesn't mean I can't be objective. Truth is, they make an inferior product, and to use your logic, the end customer can have no faith in the bolts they supply, and at best only questionable faith in the strength of the branded spacers.
Well you are assuming that their product caused the failure. Since we have no actual proof of what did cause the failure then no one can say whether it was the product, the installation or a combination of both.

Trust me, I am the first person to call a spade a spade.
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      05-18-2012, 01:57 PM   #110
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We have installed many MS spacers on our customers' cars even myself. We only had issue with a pair of 10mm spacers. MS explained that last run of their 10mm spacers were slightly out of tolerance after machining.

I'm sure Macht Schnell will take care of it for you. They have been very responsive for me. I'm sure they will get you taken care of. Talk to Tom @ Macht Schnell.
That's fucked up. Was there a recall on these?
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