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      05-18-2012, 10:28 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
That makes absolutely no sense look at the gauge marks on the spacers right around the bolt holes..they were wiggling around....As far as the vibration maybe they were tight then and came loose after. ..This pic shows 3 bolts in good shape.. If the other 2 broke its b/c they came loose..these are hardened 10.9 bolts..they are not going to break unless they are loose and wiggling around..the OP’s picure clearly shows 3 bolts on the ground beside the spacer. (if you zoom in)

There is not a SHRED of doubt that this was a result of poorly torqued bolts..The evidence is clear..and you guys should stop slandering yet another company for what is clearly an install error

Attachment 692748
Seeing as these were hubcentric spacers, do you really think that's plausible. Keep in mind the wheel centerbore is going to rest on the spacer snugly, and then the spacer should mate to the wheel hub snugly as well. There should be ZERO play. So even if the bolts were undertorqued, if the wheel was sitting on the spacer hub and the spacer was sitting on the wheel hub, there should still be minimal to no movement.
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      05-18-2012, 10:33 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
Seeing as these were hubcentric spacers, do you really think that's plausible. Keep in mind the wheel centerbore is going to rest on the spacer snugly, and then the spacer should mate to the wheel hub snugly as well. There should be ZERO play. So even if the bolts were undertorqued, if the wheel was sitting on the spacer hub and the spacer was sitting on the wheel hub, there should still be minimal to no movement.
There would be no movement if they were torqued correctly..but its clear they came loose as OP started to drive causing the subsequent damage..so I am not following your logic here?
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      05-18-2012, 10:33 AM   #69
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This thread is a perfect storm of misinformation. Wild speculation, passing on of rumors, advice against running spacers for no reason. Crazy. People need to be more responsible with what they post.

I think the TMS spacers are the best on the market also personally. However, I would not expect the MS to fail like this.

As far as analyzing the damage - pretty hard at this point. As soon as one of the bolts goes, at the track no less, the damage is going to happen very quickly to that spacer.
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      05-18-2012, 10:37 AM   #70
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No misinformation here..if OP wants to show close up of the bolts we can put this to rest..But please explain what you feel happend here..because you post contains no information

Again brand of spacer is irrelevant..
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      05-18-2012, 10:58 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WAHHKAOOM3 View Post
guess everything from MS falls off or break. heard the intake falls off as well.
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Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
wow, that's a shitty part. I just can't fathom why people would buy these spacers.

if you're going to track, Turner's spacers are the way to go. hell, even the RSTechnik, H&R and Ichiba spacers are good stuff.
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Originally Posted by nlpamg View Post
lol, I just noticed in your about me section that you put "not leased" after your car.

so since you had to mention that, I assume you care more about your car as it's "yours" and won't get "returned" after a pre-determined period of time. I also think you're trying to say that you're better off than the people that "have to lease" the M3. then why don't you just spend some more $ and buy a good part.

even if it's just cosmetic, what if you hit a pothole?

do you track? there's nothing wrong with using spacers at the track. real race cars run spacers all the time.

do I track? lots. I've tracked my M5 with spacers (I've used RS Technik and even Ichiba on it) and I track my GT-R without. it all depends on the setup and how well your car is looked after and maintained.
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Originally Posted by leemik View Post
i didn't even know spacers were legal at the track

i don't think i would ever run a car with any brand spacers at the track
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Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
No misinformation here..if OP wants to show close up of the bolts we can put this to rest..But please explain what you feel happend here..because you post contains no information
Spacers are safe at the track when installed properly.

Quote:
Again brand of spacer is irrelevant..
Well since brands have different designs, it is relevant. I've always thought the TMS was superior (beefier, fully coated, with slots for removal(new MS have this now)), and always have stated such. I don't think this thread proves anything though because I don't see how anyone can definitively say at this point what caused the failure.

All 5 bolts broke and the spacer is mangled, and you think you are going to reconstruct exactly what happened? Seems very difficult to me. One bolt could have been overtorqued and stretched, then broken, then the others could have broken. A bolt could have been undertorqued and backed out...the bolts could be defective. Spacer could have been defective. I know the OP is confident that he did everything right, and I believe him, but everyone makes mistakes sometimes. Not saying he did, but just saying the variables here are rather large.
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      05-18-2012, 11:07 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
There would be no movement if they were torqued correctly..but its clear they came loose as OP started to drive causing the subsequent damage..so I am not following your logic here?
There should be no movement even if not torqued correctly, but torqued at all.
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      05-18-2012, 11:10 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
There should be no movement even if not torqued correctly, but torqued at all.
Ok let me try again..,if they are not torqued properly and you begin to drive the bolts are going to wiggle loose..right? So again confused by what you are trying to convery here
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      05-18-2012, 11:12 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leemik View Post
the pattern on the ring of the spacer looks a bit unusual.. like the wheel was rocking in and out to create that.. and finally it just gave way and bent the top

I'm thinking the wheel wasn't 100% flush on the spacer.. the bolts would still torque down "properly" (as you said) but there would be a small gap and the load of driving just worked the gap wider and wider until 4 of the bolts snapped and the wheel bent the lip of the spacer working itself off..
+1. I own a few 8 ton and 15 ton wheel loader CATs and from my experience with overload and mechanical failures, that does not look like a overload or failure from a defective piece. Those metal shavings/ridges suggest to me that it was a failure over time. Just look at the sheared piece, it doesn't have a clean break but rather a forced tear. Just my $.02.
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      05-18-2012, 11:14 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
This thread is a perfect storm of misinformation. Wild speculation, passing on of rumors, advice against running spacers for no reason. Crazy. People need to be more responsible with what they post.

I think the TMS spacers are the best on the market also personally. However, I would not expect the MS to fail like this.

As far as analyzing the damage - pretty hard at this point. As soon as one of the bolts goes, at the track no less, the damage is going to happen very quickly to that spacer.
BINGO.

First, the hub extenders are not a load bearing surface. I've ran 8mm spacers where it basically left a wheel with a chamfered hub bolted onto the a wheel without touching the OEM hub nub (due to necessity). It doesn't "shear off" the bolts if you tighten them right. Once tightened and bolted to 88ft-lbs, the conical seat surface against the wheel are the load bearing surfaces, and the force supplied is the clamping force between the bolt and the tensile strength of the bolt.

The PROBLEM I faced with the 8mm spacer sans hub, is that if you don't center the wheel PERFECTLY then there's a ton of vibration (the spacer is installed on the front wheel) at any speed above 25mph. The vibration, in fact, had sheared a set of 15 year old bolts off. It's the IMPROPER INSTALLATION of the bolts that resulted in shearing off the bolts though, and it would have happened with studs. Would have sheared the studs right off. I've learned, that ANYTIME you run spacers, you need to take absolute care on the installation of the lug bolts and lug nuts. They need to be tightened in a star pattern, with 30% of the require torque (~25 ft-lbs) first in the star pattern, then 65 ft-lbs, then 88 ft-lbs. You can't just gun it with a torque stick or go crazy with an impact wrench otherwise you'll introduce uneven load onto the bolt, or allow the wheel to be installed slightly off-center and not completely flush with the hub face. Again, ask me how I know. By tightening in a star pattern in 3-4 steps, you eliminate that possibility and force the wheel to sit flush with the surface of the hub.

Again, anyone claiming the little hub extenders are load bearing surfaces...It is simply not true. The damage on the "hub" nub portion of the spacer is almost guaranteed to have come from AFTER the bolts had broken off. The hub nubs are strictly to center the hub for tightening with the fastener, the FACE of the hub bears the load force, provided by the clamping force of the fasteners.

Spacer or fastener failure, which one comes first, is impossible to ascertain at this point. What probably CAN be ascertained, is that one lead to the other (either the bolts broke resulting in the spacer failure, or something in the spacer design resulted in the fastener breaking). There's really only TWO scenarios here.

1) Inferior fasteners (grade 8.8 or lower?) stretched enough to allow some play in the wheel, and the slight movement of the wheel resulted in the stretched bolt breaking off, and as the bolts broke off, the weight of the wheel all of a sudden dropped on the hub nub and broke the spacer.

2) Improper design of the spacers resulted in the surface of the wheel not sitting completely flush with the surface of the spacer or hub face, resulting in slight movement of the wheel/spacer against the hub, and this small movement acted like a giant scissor and cut the bolts, resulting in complete failure.

Both scenario would have SOME symptoms before the failure, especially if the spacer is installed in the FRONT. Vibration through the wheel would be transmitted through the chassis or the steering wheel. Since the failure happened on the wheels installed in the rear, it is a lot harder to predict. When my bolt broke on my old trusty E30 318is, it happened as I was making a right hand turn, and it happened quickly with very little warning (this happened on the rear wheel). Basically, I heard some rumbling noise from the back for about half a block, thinking my bearings are on its way out, made the right hand turn and BAM! Wheel fell off of the car. Sheared one bolt, the rest backed out. All the surviving bolts has "stretch marks" leading me to believe the failure was from the 15+ year old lug bolts, not from the use of the spacers.

As for the age old wisdom of whether or not to run spacers at the track, I'm of the opinion that adding spacers basically adds another potential component for failure. The pros must be weighted against the cons, if you can't clear your strut without a spacer to run 275mm tires up front, then spacers are a necessary risk. If you can find the proper offset wheel (and with Apex offering width of just about every kind with BMW offsets of every kind, there's no excuse not to find a set of wheels with the proper offset) and width to fit those 275mm R-Comps up front, more power to ya...No reason to run spacers then. HOWEVER, to run spacers for the sheer joy of "hella flush" when your tire and wheel clear all components without rub, and up front gave you an ideal scrub radius? Probably not a good idea.

I would inspect the lug bolts and make sure they're either marked 8.8 or 10.9. Anything else (below or above, or without markings) would lead me to believe the improper bolts are used. Metric grade 8.8 or below bolts stretch too easily, 10.9 or above are too brittle. Bolts without SAE or Metric markings should never be used. See this chart for some basic info:

http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-in...ade-Chart.aspx

NOTE: SAE grade 5 (3 marks at 120º) is equivalent to Metric 10.9 in tensile strength, although the marks would likely exist on SAE sizes, not metric bolts.

Just my internet opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
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      05-18-2012, 11:21 AM   #76
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Also, to add to my previous point. It is entirely possible for the spacer to be the culprit in this case. If a spacer is machined to the wrong tolerances, for example, a chamfer edge few thousands of an inch too large to allow the wheel to sit completely flush with the face of the spacer, or imperfections on the spacer prevents the spacer from sitting completely flush with the hub face, or if the hub hole on the spacer is a few hundredth of an inch off allowing the spacer to sit unevenly on the hub nub when installed, any of the above spacer defect can easily lead to enough movement of either the wheel face or the spacer face to cause a complete bolt failure. And all it has to do is damage one single bolt to result in a similar catastrophic failure.

In cases like this, the most obvious damage is to the bolt itself. What leads to a single bolt failing (or multiple bolt failing) is up to speculation here. Whether it's inferior bolt, improper torque of the bolt, or spacer failure is impossible to determine at this point.
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      05-18-2012, 11:22 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Ok let me try again..,if they are not torqued properly and you begin to drive the bolts are going to wiggle loose..right? So again confused by what you are trying to convery here
If the hub, spacer, and wheel are mated properly, all 5 bolts would have to wiggle loose to the point where one of those items became completely unseated.

For example, if I slide my TMS spacers on halfway, there is still NO PLAY between the hub and spacer. There will still be no wiggle.
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      05-18-2012, 11:27 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
BINGO.

First, the hub extenders are not a load bearing surface. I've ran 8mm spacers where it basically left a wheel with a chamfered hub bolted onto the a wheel without touching the OEM hub nub (due to necessity). It doesn't "shear off" the bolts if you tighten them right. Once tightened and bolted to 88ft-lbs, the conical seat surface against the wheel are the load bearing surfaces, and the force supplied is the clamping force between the bolt and the tensile strength of the bolt.

The PROBLEM I faced with the 8mm spacer sans hub, is that if you don't center the wheel PERFECTLY then there's a ton of vibration (the spacer is installed on the front wheel) at any speed above 25mph. The vibration, in fact, had sheared a set of 15 year old bolts off. It's the IMPROPER INSTALLATION of the bolts that resulted in shearing off the bolts though, and it would have happened with studs. Would have sheared the studs right off. I've learned, that ANYTIME you run spacers, you need to take absolute care on the installation of the lug bolts and lug nuts. They need to be tightened in a star pattern, with 30% of the require torque (~25 ft-lbs) first in the star pattern, then 65 ft-lbs, then 88 ft-lbs. You can't just gun it with a torque stick or go crazy with an impact wrench otherwise you'll introduce uneven load onto the bolt, or allow the wheel to be installed slightly off-center and not completely flush with the hub face. Again, ask me how I know. By tightening in a star pattern in 3-4 steps, you eliminate that possibility and force the wheel to sit flush with the surface of the hub.
The hub is what is the loadbearing surface on HUBCENTRIC wheel/hub designs. This has been the case for the past, oh, 20 or so years.

This wasn't the case with much older, lugcentric wheel/hub designs, but they haven't been around for ages, AND, the lug studs or bolts are MUCH beefier on true lugcentric setups.

Yes you can torque down lugs without proper hub mating, but it will cause pre-mature bolt or stud failure in designes that weren't meant to be lugcentric. It may not be a week, a month, or even several months, but it will happen.
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      05-18-2012, 11:28 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
If the hub, spacer, and wheel are mated properly, all 5 bolts would have to wiggle loose to the point where one of those items became completely unseated.

For example, if I slide my TMS spacers on halfway, there is still NO PLAY between the hub and spacer. There will still be no wiggle.
That's not true. One or two loose bolts and you'll start to feel vibration through the chassis. While you may not be able to physically wiggle the wheel with your hands, keep in mind there are far greater forces involved here with a 3,700 lbs car.

Try this (but don't do it at high speeds/high load). Tighten all 5 lugs in a star pattern on one of the front wheels, then loosen one, and go out for a quick drive. You'll be SHOCKED at the amount of vibration transmitted through despite 4 solidly tightened lugs. Imagine 88ft-lbs of clamping force being applied at 5 points, equal distance from the center of the circle at 72º apart, when you remove one of the clamping forces, and spin the circle with 55 lbs of weight attached at high speeds, the difference in clamping force, the unbalanced clamping, will generate enough wobble even if the other 4 bolts are tightened down properly.

The WIGGLE comes from the oscillating forces, not a physical movement. And it's that oscillating force that will stretch a bolt back and forth until it breaks.
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      05-18-2012, 11:31 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
That's not true. One or two loose bolts and you'll start to feel vibration through the chassis. While you may not be able to physically wiggle the wheel with your hands, keep in mind there are far greater forces involved here with a 3,700 lbs car.

Try this (but don't do it at high speeds/high load). Tighten all 5 lugs in a star pattern on one of the front wheels, then loosen one, and go out for a quick drive. You'll be SHOCKED at the amount of vibration transmitted through despite 4 solidly tightened lugs. Imagine 88ft-lbs of clamping force being applied at 5 points, equal distance from the center of the circle at 72º apart, when you remove one of the clamping forces, and spin the circle with 55 lbs of weight attached at high speeds, the difference in clamping force, the unbalanced clamping, will generate enough wobble even if the other 4 bolts are tightened down properly.

The WIGGLE comes from the oscillating forces, not a physical movement. And it's that oscillating force that will stretch a bolt back and forth until it breaks.
If you're near orange county, I'll be willing to take you on a ride with 1 of my front bolts completely removed, with my spacers on, and bet there would be ZERO vibrations.

**EDIT** If you don't believe me, just google "one missing lug bolt" and see how many people noticed a lug bolt missing by random visual inspection, not by excessive vibrations in the car.
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      05-18-2012, 11:36 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
The hub is what is the loadbearing surface on HUBCENTRIC wheel/hub designs. This has been the case for the past, oh, 20 or so years.

This wasn't the case with much older, lugcentric wheel/hub designs, but they haven't been around for ages, AND, the lug studs or bolts are MUCH beefier on true lugcentric setups.

Yes you can torque down lugs without proper hub mating, but it will cause pre-mature bolt or stud failure in designes that weren't meant to be lugcentric. It may not be a week, a month, or even several months, but it will happen.
No offense, but you have your terminologies confused. The HUB is the flat face that's perpendicular to the road surface (well, perpendicular in the case of zero camber). The fact that the hub is the load bearing surface is not in dispute. The hub "nub" that extends out from the axle simply "centers" the wheel to the hub. The hub nub has never been a load bearing surface. When a set of wheels are properly installed, the nub bears ZERO load. The ONLY cars that uses the hub "nub" as load bearing surfaces are professional race cars that use a single fastener design, like cars in the upper echelon of racing (F1, ALMS, Grand AM...etc).

Again, no offense. I put close to 150,000 miles on the E30 318is riding on the same 8mm spacers that leaves the hub nub completely UNTOUCHED by the wheels. I can tell you that, if you're putting load on the little nub extender on spacers, you're in for a world of HURT. And the hub design between the mighty E9x and the 20+ year old E30 is practically the same.
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      05-18-2012, 11:36 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
If you're near orange county, I'll be willing to take you on a ride with 1 of my front bolts completely removed, with my spacers on, and bet there would be ZERO vibrations.

**EDIT** If you don't believe me, just google "one missing lug bolt" and see how many people noticed a lug bolt missing by random visual inspection, not by excessive vibrations in the car.
Is that on the track, or on the street? 'Cause I can guarantee you the wheel will fall right off.

In fact, if you're close to Fontana, come out to our auto cross this sunday at Auto Club Speedway. I won't be riding in the car, because I don't want the embarrassment of riding in 3 wheels, but feel free to take out one of the lug nuts on the front wheel and drive the course.
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      05-18-2012, 11:39 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Is that on the track, or on the street? 'Cause I can guarantee you the wheel will fall right off.
In fact, if you're close to Fontana, come out to our auto cross this sunday at Auto Club Speedway. I won't be riding in the car, because I don't want the embarrassment of riding in 3 wheels, but feel free to take out one of the lug nuts on the front wheel and drive the course.
Good grief, seriously?!
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      05-18-2012, 11:45 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
The picture shows it all..there is not supposed to be any movement if the wheel is sitting perfectly flush and torqued properly to the hub..yet there is tell tale scuff marks here showing the wheels wiggling loose around the bolt holes...torque of the lug bolts is at fault here..period

I check my lug bolts and tire pressure..weekly..if you are going to run spacers (hopefully not on the track) get into this habit..

Attachment 692683
Good timing man. I was about to note the same. I've tracked with MS spacers and so far no issues. What must have happened here is that OP forgot to torque the bolts after each session.

I make sure to torque the lugs (if needed) after every session. After my first session at VIR-I had 3 lugs loose that had to be tightened.
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      05-18-2012, 11:47 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e1000 View Post
Good grief, seriously?!
Yes seriously. I've seen several lug failures IN PERSON when only one of the bolts (or nuts) are improperly installed on track. In fact, it was hilarious to hear from my buddy who actually was driving in the car (someone else's car), and to find out from the owner of the car that he was in such a rush to get the car on the grid he had accidentally left one of the bolts off of the wheel.

At least he (the owner of the car) was good humored about it, and the damages to the car was only cosmetic (ripped out the wheel liner, some damage to the finishes on the inside of the wheel). Could have been a nasty mess, as they were heading to the north half of the auto cross course close to a set of barriers when it happened. My buddy who was instructing at the time, said he thought the vibration coming from the front end was a little odd, but since it was a car he wasn't familiar with, he proceeded with caution...At least, up to the point where the vibration backed the other bolts out and the wheel came off of the car.
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      05-18-2012, 11:49 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
The picture shows it all..there is not supposed to be any movement if the wheel is sitting perfectly flush and torqued properly to the hub..yet there is tell tale scuff marks here showing the wheels wiggling loose around the bolt holes...torque of the lug bolts is at fault here..period

I check my lug bolts and tire pressure..weekly..if you are going to run spacers (hopefully not on the track) get into this habit..

Attachment 692683
Those marks COULD have come from the car moving after the bolts had backed out. Again, based on the facts available, there's really no guessing what actually went wrong.
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      05-18-2012, 11:55 AM   #87
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So, forgive the somewhat less than official links, i'll try to post as many as I can to get the message across. I thought this was common sense but I guess the sky must be green for some people too.........


http://konigusa.net/nodisplay/hub-ce...nd-centerbore/

Quote:
What is the Centerbore of a wheel?

The ‘centerbore’ of a wheel is the size of the hole at the back of the wheel which the ‘hub’ fits into. To help the wheels to seat properly this hole needs to be an exact match to the size of the hub.

Most modern wheels are what’s called ‘hub-centric’ – this means that the hub which protrudes from your car [and mates with the equivalent sized hole at the back of your wheel] is ‘load bearing’. All the studs or bolts do therefore is hold the wheel onto the hub!

Some people will say the term ‘lug-centric’. They are referring to the use of the lugs to position the wheel on the vehicle in the proper position. If you have’ lug-centric’ wheels, the state of your studs or bolts is obviously more critical – be sure to replace these from time to time and always 3/4 tighten the wheels off the car to ensure they’re centerd. However this is a term that should not really be used with modern day vehicles. Hub centric rings are the correct way to align a wheel properly on the vehicle.

http://www.phantasmusa.com/ichiba-wh...version-2.html

Quote:
Center Bore means what?

The center bore of an alloy wheel is the size of the hole at the back of the wheel which the hub fits into. To help the wheels to seat properly this hole needs to be an exact match to the size of the hub. Most modern wheels are what's called hub-centric. This means that the hub which protrudes from your car, and mates with the equivalent sized hole at the back of your wheel, is load bearing. All that the studs or bolts do is holding the wheel onto the hub. If you have lug-centric wheels, the state of your studs or bolts is obviously more important - be sure to replace these from time to time and always 3/4 tighten the wheels off the car to make sure they're centered.

http://www.stancedandenhanced.com/t4...er-faq/?page=1

Quote:
Hub-centric vs. Lug-Centric
-As mentioned before, you want hub-centric, not lug-centric! Hub-centric is where the load bearing from your wheels is at the hub. All modern cars are hub load bearing.

......about being dangerous, I'm not the one running a lugcentric setup on a hubcentric car...
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      05-18-2012, 12:00 PM   #88
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I know exactly what happened. The wheel bolts were loose. Period.

How do I know? Because I have a MS 10mm spacer in my garage that looks a lot like that one.

The way the hub assembly works is based on proper alignment, provided by the hubcentric ring, and compression provided by the bolts. When the bolts are tightened to 90 lb-ft, they exert tons of pressure clamping the whole assembly together. If nothing moves, then it can carry a huge load. Once something moves in the assembly, the metal parts grind against each other, wear happens and things get looser and looser until something breaks.

Nobody has said anything about the rim - is the centerbore proper on the rim - 72.5mm? If it's an E39 rim with a 74mm centerbore, the gap is enough to cause a problem like this.
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