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      05-17-2012, 05:06 PM   #45
e1000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
It wasn't the method that was the problem, it was telling me to install at 90lbft. I had already researched Turner and other studs and knew better. That combined with the quality of the studs themselves (and their reaction to it) was really bad. I can't imagine buying something like studs, spacers, seat mounts, etc from a company that has such an apparently casual attitude about quality.
what? they were only a couple lb-ft off..... maybe they have some kind of alien design...
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      05-17-2012, 07:09 PM   #46
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Not to throw gasoline on a fire, but I have been warned by several people who track to not use MS spacers. If you were move on to Turners or RS Technik. The price difference is minimal. But to be honest it kind of turned me off to spacers all together.

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      05-17-2012, 07:18 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
I'd love to know where your reasoning comes from.


The brand of spacers is irrelevant. they are hub centric and made of quality material...now the real questions is WHO THE HELL RUNS SPACERS ON THE TRACK..I mean really?

I have the MS spacers now for 6K miles..at first was using their bolts...but since swapped all 20 lugs to RAD lugs bolts..I feel safer knowing they are made in Germany and TUV approved..still if I was tracking I would NEVER run spacers.
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      05-17-2012, 07:27 PM   #48
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I have had a spacer fail. Most recently had a bolt fail as well (similar thing, where it didn't back off, just snapped -- luckily for me, it was while I was checking torque at the track. Bolt was not overtorqued and never had been (or used with an airgun, etc.)).

I had it drilled out by a race shop and replaced with ARP studs. Confirmed with the race shop that the problem is not spacers in general (as Phil mentioned earlier, race teams use spacers all the time). But I do not trust the shitty bolts. Personally, I think it's stupid our car design is shitty from the factory as I can't think of any logical reason not to use fixed studs.


Post up a close-up picture of one of your failed bolts; curious to see how it compares to mine.
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      05-17-2012, 07:28 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post


The brand of spacers is irrelevant. they are hub centric and made of quality material...now the real questions is WHO THE HELL RUNS SPACERS ON THE TRACK..I mean really?

I have the MS spacers now for 6K miles..at first was using their bolts...but since swapped all 20 lugs to RAD lugs bolts..I feel safer knowing they are made in Germany and TUV approved..still if I was tracking I would NEVER run spacers.
I thought the M3 GTS has spacers?
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      05-17-2012, 08:04 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
I thought the M3 GTS has spacers?
Good point..but I would say thats apples and oranges for 2 reasons

1) Factory installed
2) Very small IIRC..5mm
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      05-17-2012, 08:14 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Good point..but I would say thats apples and oranges for 2 reasons

1) Factory installed
2) Very small IIRC..5mm
Please clarify:
1. How being installed by the factory affects their reliability, and
2) What it is the maximum size spacer that should be run and the basis for that number
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      05-17-2012, 08:21 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
Not to throw gasoline on a fire, but I have been warned by several people who track to not use MS spacers. If you were move on to Turners or RS Technik. The price difference is minimal. But to be honest it kind of turned me off to spacers all together.

Dave
While the Turner ones definitely seem beefier and I would have no issue with upgrading if it proved beneficial, I just can't believe that a spacer could cause a failure. MS seems to be the most widely used as well so I would assume if their product was really that bad/unsafe that we would have heard about it by now. Glad I switched to studs!
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      05-17-2012, 08:22 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhouck View Post
Please clarify:
1. How being installed by the factory affects their reliability, and
2) What it is the maximum size spacer that should be run and the basis for that number
The difference between an OEM factory installed part and an aftermarket one? what do you need clarification on?

I dont know of a "magic" size to run..but logic would dictate the larger spacer you go the more chance for a failure..

Maybe you missed it but I run MS spacers..just wouldnt track with them..thats my take.
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      05-17-2012, 10:20 PM   #54
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Such a heated argument. Thanks for all the info fellas. I did a one whole track day on the car and re-torqued my wheels down after every session.

I don't know which one failed first, but I do garuntee after getting to around 150 mph on the back straight of Sebring, with no vibrations whatsoever, I doubt the wheel/spacer was installed improperly.

I will never use Macht Snell spacers again, so its irrelevant if they give me another set, but I would LOVE it if someone paid for my destroyed wheel. That or better yet someone to pay for the sweet $300 dollars I threw away on the Sunday track event that i got to watch from the paddocks.

I'll contact EAS tomorrow and let you all know what happens from all this. Thanks again.
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      05-17-2012, 10:29 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
There's nothing wrong with the double nut method. I don't have their studs but I did this with the studs I do have.

Quality control however is a whole other issue.
You torqued studs to 90 lbs?
I thought you just torqued to 20-30 lbs with Locktite?

.
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      05-17-2012, 10:34 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post


The brand of spacers is irrelevant. they are hub centric and made of quality material...now the real questions is WHO THE HELL RUNS SPACERS ON THE TRACK..I mean really?

I have the MS spacers now for 6K miles..at first was using their bolts...but since swapped all 20 lugs to RAD lugs bolts..I feel safer knowing they are made in Germany and TUV approved..still if I was tracking I would NEVER run spacers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3 View Post
I thought the M3 GTS has spacers?
Yep and I remember someone (I think it was Lemans Blue) posted the M3 race car used a large spacer to work since the wheels were made for a different car.
It's too bad he got run off.

.
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      05-17-2012, 10:38 PM   #57
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The M3 GTS uses a front spacer to clear the KW coilovers. The M3 GT4 uses a spacer to to accept BBS wheels that have a larger center bore.
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      05-17-2012, 10:47 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
Turner's def look nicer. But seriously, if I were tracking a car, I would avoid using a spacer at all in the first place. For most of us, it's just for the cosmetic difference.
You sound like you are defending a product that you have no clue about ...

For you spacer might be a just for a cosmetic purpose but seriously, why do you think BMW GT4 uses 5mm/15mm spacers on the race car ?
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      05-17-2012, 10:55 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garage5 View Post
Such a heated argument. Thanks for all the info fellas. I did a one whole track day on the car and re-torqued my wheels down after every session.

I don't know which one failed first, but I do garuntee after getting to around 150 mph on the back straight of Sebring, with no vibrations whatsoever, I doubt the wheel/spacer was installed improperly.

I will never use Macht Snell spacers again, so its irrelevant if they give me another set, but I would LOVE it if someone paid for my destroyed wheel. That or better yet someone to pay for the sweet $300 dollars I threw away on the Sunday track event that i got to watch from the paddocks.

I'll contact EAS tomorrow and let you all know what happens from all this. Thanks again.
Not to harp but.............. just a suggestion.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=450066

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      05-17-2012, 11:04 PM   #60
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this is why I don't run spacers on the track.
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      05-17-2012, 11:33 PM   #61
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The picture shows it all..there is not supposed to be any movement if the wheel is sitting perfectly flush and torqued properly to the hub..yet there is tell tale scuff marks here showing the wheels wiggling loose around the bolt holes...torque of the lug bolts is at fault here..period

I check my lug bolts and tire pressure..weekly..if you are going to run spacers (hopefully not on the track) get into this habit..

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      05-17-2012, 11:56 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
The picture shows it all..there is not supposed to be any movement if the wheel is sitting perfectly flush and torqued properly to the hub..yet there is tell tale scuff marks here showing the wheels wiggling loose around the bolt holes...torque of the lug bolts is at fault here..period

I check my lug bolts and tire pressure..weekly..if you are going to run spacers (hopefully not on the track) get into this habit..

Attachment 692683
Good point just noticed that
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      05-18-2012, 01:10 AM   #63
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That could easily have happened after the bolts broke.
If the OP is going 150mph, how is he not going to feel vibration if the wheel/spacer is not seated on the hub?
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      05-18-2012, 08:32 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
You torqued studs to 90 lbs?
I thought you just torqued to 20-30 lbs with Locktite?

.
Nope. Never said that I did. I just used the double nut method to tighten them.
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      05-18-2012, 08:34 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJM3 View Post
You sound like you are defending a product that you have no clue about ...

For you spacer might be a just for a cosmetic purpose but seriously, why do you think BMW GT4 uses 5mm/15mm spacers on the race car ?
No idea what you're talking about. Yes, I run the MS spacers. People jump on and call them crap but I have never seen a failure like this posted about before.

What does the GT4 using them have to do with me? I just wouldn't use a spacer on a track car personally. Buy the right offset of wheel and width and you don't need a spacer.
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      05-18-2012, 09:32 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
That could easily have happened after the bolts broke.If the OP is going 150mph, how is he not going to feel vibration if the wheel/spacer is not seated on the hub?
That makes absolutely no sense look at the gouge marks on the spacers right around the bolt holes this..they were wiggling around causing the hub of the wheel to gouge the spacer...if the bolts broke clean there would be no gouge marks or at least not this severe....

As far as no vibration maybe they were tight then and came loose after? who knows. ..This pic shows 3 bolts in good shape.. If the other 2 broke its b/c they came loose..these are hardened 10.9 bolts..they are not going to break unless they are loose and wiggling around..the OP’s picture clearly shows 3 bolts on the ground beside the spacer. (if you zoom in)

There is not a SHRED of doubt that this was a result of poorly torqued bolts..The evidence is clear..and you guys should stop slandering yet another company for what is clearly an install error

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