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      04-18-2012, 04:52 PM   #1
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PS2 in front and SS in rear?

Please don't kill me for even asking.

How bad would it be to replace my worn PS2 rear tires with SS ones.

I know the SS are better, yet are similar in design.

My front PS2 tires have a very long life left in them...

Thanks for the info.
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      04-18-2012, 05:14 PM   #2
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Never mind I bought PSS all around.

I have 2x PS2 fronts for sale with more than 50% life left in them!
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      04-18-2012, 05:24 PM   #3
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Good choice.
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      04-18-2012, 05:26 PM   #4
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Excellent decision - Ben@tirerack has stated several times now that Michelin strongly recommends against mixing PSS and PS2 tires
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      04-18-2012, 08:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarnes
Excellent decision - Ben@tirerack has stated several times now that Michelin strongly recommends against mixing PSS and PS2 tires
Why would it make a difference?
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      04-18-2012, 08:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Why would it make a difference?
+1. First I've ever heard this?
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      04-18-2012, 08:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Why would it make a difference?
Here's one of Ben's posts discussing not mixing PSS and PS2:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...95&postcount=2

I'd suggest you PM Ben if you want a more detailed explanation.
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      04-18-2012, 08:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarnes View Post
Here's one of Ben's posts discussing not mixing PSS and PS2:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...95&postcount=2

I'd suggest you PM Ben if you want a more detailed explanation.
Thanks.
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      04-18-2012, 08:48 PM   #9
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It makes a huge difference to the seller's bottom line. My guess is it does nothing to the car.
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      04-18-2012, 09:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Sweat View Post
It makes a huge difference to the seller's bottom line. My guess is it does nothing to the car.
Exactly! You asked a salesperson for their opinion?
What did you think they're going to say? "Yea sure keep your old PS2s on the front, I'll make $100 less commission, it's okay."

The PSS is essentially the PS2 that has evolved, just imagine the rubber is 1-5% more sticky on the road. For example you can corner just a tad faster, you can accelerate just a tad faster before the rears break traction, etc. There's no issue mixing these two tires unless you're TRACKING the car. You're essentially going to have a tires with slightly more grip than usual on the back, that's all. Keep in mind, what is important here, is when these tires reach the limit of adhesion and lose traction, THE BREAK AWAY CHARACTERISTICS ARE VERY SIMILAR which is VERY important for predictable handling at the limit, and your safety. If you drive with traction control/stabililty control OFF, and you live driving like a MANIAC, then don't mix these two together.

Last edited by BigMacSmallFries; 04-19-2012 at 12:21 AM.
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      04-19-2012, 12:19 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
Exactly! You asked a salesperson for their opinion?
What did you think they're going to say? "Yea sure keep your old PS2s on the front, I'll make $100 less commision, it's okay."

The PSS is essentially the PS2 that has evolved, just imagine the rubber is 1-5% more sticky on the road. For example you can corner just a tad faster, you can accelerate just a tad faster before the rears break traction, etc. There's no issue mixing these two tires unless you're TRACKING the car. You're essentially going to have a tires with slightly more grip than usual on the back, that's all. Keep in mind, what is important here, is when these tires reach the limit of adhesion and loose traction, THE BREAK AWAY CHARACTERISTICS ARE VERY SIMILAR which is VERY important for predictable handling at the limit, and your safety. If you drive with traction control/stabililty control OFF, and you live driving like a MANIAC, then don't mix these two together.

One last thing, before someone corrects me. It's okay to add tires with more traction on the rear with the same breakaway characteristics but not on the front. Hypothetically, if you were to install 285 Pilot Sport Cups (for simplicity let's just say the best street legal dry performance tire) on the front and leave the stock 265 PS2s on the back, you can create a car that has dangerous and unpredictable oversteer at it's limit with traction/stability control off. That's one car you don't want to be driving at its limit 100mph around the apex of a turn because of the tendency for the backend to break traction before the front end does --if you want a great example of this, research the the original Shelby Cobra.
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      04-19-2012, 06:48 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Sweat View Post
It makes a huge difference to the seller's bottom line. My guess is it does nothing to the car.
Ben just repeated what Michelin told to Tire Rack.

Between Michelin stating not to mix their own tires and some Joe Blow forum member guessing that it is ok... which one do you think will have more credibility?

Sorry, but guessing in this particular case is simply irresponsible.
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      04-19-2012, 08:05 AM   #13
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If you don't track the car I doubt you could tell a big difference in handling characteristics, I've ran tires more different than those (including on track in a pinch). I'd put the PS2's on rear though, for slight oversteer instead of slight understeer.

Edit: This only applies to tires with "similar" grip. I agree running r comps on one end and street tires on the other is a bad idea and will create unpredictable handling at the limit. But I have personally ran different street tires front/rear or different slicks front/rear when that's all I had available and corded the ones on the car etc. and it was fine.
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      04-19-2012, 09:20 AM   #14
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The stock width tyres are 265 on the rear and 245 on the fronts. So straight from the factory the car is biased with more rear grip than front grip.

I've also driven 10,000 miles with continental sport contact 5 on the rear and 3 on the front. I have not noticed the car having any crazy handling characteristics.
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      04-19-2012, 02:29 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
Exactly! You asked a salesperson for their opinion?
What did you think they're going to say? "Yea sure keep your old PS2s on the front, I'll make $100 less commission, it's okay."

The PSS is essentially the PS2 that has evolved, just imagine the rubber is 1-5% more sticky on the road. For example you can corner just a tad faster, you can accelerate just a tad faster before the rears break traction, etc. There's no issue mixing these two tires unless you're TRACKING the car. You're essentially going to have a tires with slightly more grip than usual on the back, that's all. Keep in mind, what is important here, is when these tires reach the limit of adhesion and lose traction, THE BREAK AWAY CHARACTERISTICS ARE VERY SIMILAR which is VERY important for predictable handling at the limit, and your safety. If you drive with traction control/stabililty control OFF, and you live driving like a MANIAC, then don't mix these two together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries View Post
One last thing, before someone corrects me. It's okay to add tires with more traction on the rear with the same breakaway characteristics but not on the front. Hypothetically, if you were to install 285 Pilot Sport Cups (for simplicity let's just say the best street legal dry performance tire) on the front and leave the stock 265 PS2s on the back, you can create a car that has dangerous and unpredictable oversteer at it's limit with traction/stability control off. That's one car you don't want to be driving at its limit 100mph around the apex of a turn because of the tendency for the backend to break traction before the front end does --if you want a great example of this, research the the original Shelby Cobra.
A couple of notes to address:

1) Yes, I sell tires, and I get paid based on how many I sell. But I do a better business giving honest, factual advice than I ever would trying to hustle and/or scam people. Especially on a forum where everything is public and on the record. When someone needs two tires, I don't tell them "No you have to buy four," I encourage them to buy 2 that match or all four if they want something different. As noted above, the recommendation against mixing is direct from Michelin. Which leads me to point #2.

2) The PSS is NOT just a slightly evolved PS2. It is an all new design beginning with the internal construction. They look fairly similar, but looks are not everything. The difference is much bigger than 1-5%. Skidpad numbers from our testing showed 9% better dry and over 30% better wet. PS2 .98G dry and .74G wet. PSS: 1.07G dry and .97G wet. PSS in the wet has virtually the same grip as PS2 in the dry.

3) It is true that it is safer/more stable to have the stickier tires on the rear. But when you are talking about a dramatic difference in grip (see above) it can still be dangerous. Understeer is easier to save than oversteer, but it is no fun if you're trying to turn and the car is not turning (think for example trying to brake and turn on a wet road).

4) Yes, traction control and ABS can help offset imbalances in handling due to driver error or adverse conditions. But why use up some of your safety margin right off the bat by having an ill-matched set of tires? And obviously most people do not drive like maniacs on the street (though I'm sure that some here do ), but nearly all of us have had to make an extreme maneuver at some point in time to avoid an accident.

5) If you are not planning to push the limits of the car at all, why bother buying the PSS in the first place? If a mix-and-match set of tires is 'good enough' for you, save yourself several hundred bucks and buy a nice pair of Hankooks or Sumitomos etc. And I don't mean that as a disparagement to the driver or to those fine manufacturers who make high quality performance tires at prices that are quite affordable. If you are spending the money on the Michelins, you are spending it because you want the very best, and if you're mixing the tires you are not getting the very best.

Bigmac: I don't know if I will change your mind with regard to the honesty of my advice, but I take pride in what I do and I do not make up recommendations just for my short-term profit. I would rather sell someone exactly what they need every time they need it than sell them what they don't need once.

For those who are mixing and matching tires, or have in the past: sometimes it works well enough that you do not have a problem. Other times you may find that the results are strange/unstable/unacceptable. It's my job to warn you when there is a possibility that something will turn out poorly, but unless it is recklessly negligent everyone is free to make his or her own decision.

*climbs off extremely high horse using stepladder*

OP, congrats on your new PSS!
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      04-19-2012, 04:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R0ut3r View Post
Please don't kill me for even asking.

How bad would it be to replace my worn PS2 rear tires with SS ones.

I know the SS are better, yet are similar in design.

My front PS2 tires have a very long life left in them...

Thanks for the info.
Some good advice on this thread. However, I had to recently replace just one front tyre, following a nasty pothole experience. I chose to go PSS, leaving the other three part-worn PS2s on the car. When they wear down, I'll go PSS all round. I have noticed no issues, although I do detect a slight pull to one side (the side with the PSS) at high speeds. Like anything - go with the purist view or compromise and take a risk. I'm happy with my choice
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      04-19-2012, 05:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben@tirerack View Post
A couple of notes to address:

1) Yes, I sell tires, and I get paid based on how many I sell. But I do a better business giving honest, factual advice than I ever would trying to hustle and/or scam people. Especially on a forum where everything is public and on the record. When someone needs two tires, I don't tell them "No you have to buy four," I encourage them to buy 2 that match or all four if they want something different. As noted above, the recommendation against mixing is direct from Michelin. Which leads me to point #2.

2) The PSS is NOT just a slightly evolved PS2. It is an all new design beginning with the internal construction. They look fairly similar, but looks are not everything. The difference is much bigger than 1-5%. Skidpad numbers from our testing showed 9% better dry and over 30% better wet. PS2 .98G dry and .74G wet. PSS: 1.07G dry and .97G wet. PSS in the wet has virtually the same grip as PS2 in the dry.

3) It is true that it is safer/more stable to have the stickier tires on the rear. But when you are talking about a dramatic difference in grip (see above) it can still be dangerous. Understeer is easier to save than oversteer, but it is no fun if you're trying to turn and the car is not turning (think for example trying to brake and turn on a wet road).

4) Yes, traction control and ABS can help offset imbalances in handling due to driver error or adverse conditions. But why use up some of your safety margin right off the bat by having an ill-matched set of tires? And obviously most people do not drive like maniacs on the street (though I'm sure that some here do ), but nearly all of us have had to make an extreme maneuver at some point in time to avoid an accident.

5) If you are not planning to push the limits of the car at all, why bother buying the PSS in the first place? If a mix-and-match set of tires is 'good enough' for you, save yourself several hundred bucks and buy a nice pair of Hankooks or Sumitomos etc. And I don't mean that as a disparagement to the driver or to those fine manufacturers who make high quality performance tires at prices that are quite affordable. If you are spending the money on the Michelins, you are spending it because you want the very best, and if you're mixing the tires you are not getting the very best.

Bigmac: I don't know if I will change your mind with regard to the honesty of my advice, but I take pride in what I do and I do not make up recommendations just for my short-term profit. I would rather sell someone exactly what they need every time they need it than sell them what they don't need once.

For those who are mixing and matching tires, or have in the past: sometimes it works well enough that you do not have a problem. Other times you may find that the results are strange/unstable/unacceptable. It's my job to warn you when there is a possibility that something will turn out poorly, but unless it is recklessly negligent everyone is free to make his or her own decision.

*climbs off extremely high horse using stepladder*

OP, congrats on your new PSS!
Thanks for the post Ben
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      04-19-2012, 09:03 PM   #18
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Bravo Ben!
Everyone is free to use their own judgement as long as they are aware of the recommendations and consequences for not heeding that advice. That's how we feed lawyers and nominate individuals for the Darwin Award.
My PSS are not on the car yet (next week!!!) but I nearly ordered a full set of PS2's again because of the shortage of 265/40/18s in the PSS. I could have just ordered a pair for the fronts, but I chose to wait it out for the full set...
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      04-19-2012, 10:21 PM   #19
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Ben is the man...
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      04-20-2012, 09:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Ben just repeated what Michelin told to Tire Rack.

Between Michelin stating not to mix their own tires and some Joe Blow forum member guessing that it is ok... which one do you think will have more credibility?

Sorry, but guessing in this particular case is simply irresponsible.
Looks like the issue has been put to bed and who ever said I was responsible
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      04-20-2012, 10:09 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Sweat View Post
Looks like the issue has been put to bed and who ever said I was responsible
This non-issue was already put to bed way before this thread was even created.

Out...
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      04-20-2012, 05:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben@tirerack View Post
A couple of notes to address:

1) Yes, I sell tires, and I get paid based on how many I sell. But I do a better business giving honest, factual advice than I ever would trying to hustle and/or scam people. Especially on a forum where everything is public and on the record. When someone needs two tires, I don't tell them "No you have to buy four," I encourage them to buy 2 that match or all four if they want something different. As noted above, the recommendation against mixing is direct from Michelin. Which leads me to point #2.

2) The PSS is NOT just a slightly evolved PS2. It is an all new design beginning with the internal construction. They look fairly similar, but looks are not everything. The difference is much bigger than 1-5%. Skidpad numbers from our testing showed 9% better dry and over 30% better wet. PS2 .98G dry and .74G wet. PSS: 1.07G dry and .97G wet. PSS in the wet has virtually the same grip as PS2 in the dry.

3) It is true that it is safer/more stable to have the stickier tires on the rear. But when you are talking about a dramatic difference in grip (see above) it can still be dangerous. Understeer is easier to save than oversteer, but it is no fun if you're trying to turn and the car is not turning (think for example trying to brake and turn on a wet road).

4) Yes, traction control and ABS can help offset imbalances in handling due to driver error or adverse conditions. But why use up some of your safety margin right off the bat by having an ill-matched set of tires? And obviously most people do not drive like maniacs on the street (though I'm sure that some here do ), but nearly all of us have had to make an extreme maneuver at some point in time to avoid an accident.

5) If you are not planning to push the limits of the car at all, why bother buying the PSS in the first place? If a mix-and-match set of tires is 'good enough' for you, save yourself several hundred bucks and buy a nice pair of Hankooks or Sumitomos etc. And I don't mean that as a disparagement to the driver or to those fine manufacturers who make high quality performance tires at prices that are quite affordable. If you are spending the money on the Michelins, you are spending it because you want the very best, and if you're mixing the tires you are not getting the very best.

Bigmac: I don't know if I will change your mind with regard to the honesty of my advice, but I take pride in what I do and I do not make up recommendations just for my short-term profit. I would rather sell someone exactly what they need every time they need it than sell them what they don't need once.

For those who are mixing and matching tires, or have in the past: sometimes it works well enough that you do not have a problem. Other times you may find that the results are strange/unstable/unacceptable. It's my job to warn you when there is a possibility that something will turn out poorly, but unless it is recklessly negligent everyone is free to make his or her own decision.

*climbs off extremely high horse using stepladder*

OP, congrats on your new PSS!

You didn't need to defend yourself, I was referring to any salesperson --there's potential for bias. I actually don't agree with a couple of your points above, I've spent lots of time reading technical information regarding testing of tires at their limits, but that's why forums are made, so we can share our opinions.

Btw, I seriously believe your company had a confounding factor for the 30% increase in wet weather traction , considering the PS2 had the best wet weather traction in the world a couple years ago ALREADY, it would be nearly impossible for the chemical engineers to have come up with rubber with that kind of improvement. That's quite the claim.
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