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      12-13-2013, 05:19 PM   #1
joe@blackforest
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Motor Mounts - Who's ready?

Ive posted this in other forums and after having a few individuals back out, I'm posting this here to see if anyone here is interested.

We have recently released our first BMW product - Replacment Engine Mounts for the E9x M3:



They are a billet mount with a fully encapsulated urethane bushing. High performance with minimal vibration - and no more broken engine mounts.

More info here on our webstore.


What we are looking for is an owner of an e9x M3 who is willing to let us install these and let us take pictures. We don't have the install instructions finished for the e9x M3 and we no longer have access to the car we used for fit testing and prototyping of these mounts.

For interested individuals:

We would need your car for a day so we can install the mounts and take some media of the install and your car (photogenic cars preferred ). You in return would get of course a free engine mount install and the engine mounts would be yours to keep (a $900 value).

Interested individuals please respond to this thread, or email me - joe@blackforestindustries.com.
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      12-13-2013, 05:49 PM   #2
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Hmmmm, doesn't sound like there is any risk in volunteering for this...
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      12-13-2013, 06:05 PM   #3
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$900 for engine mounts is scary.
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      12-13-2013, 06:35 PM   #4
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They sorta look like these:


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      12-13-2013, 07:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post
Ive posted this in other forums and after having a few individuals back out, I'm posting this here to see if anyone here is interested.

We have recently released our first BMW product - Replacment Engine Mounts for the E9x M3:



They are a billet mount with a fully encapsulated urethane bushing. High performance with minimal vibration - and no more broken engine mounts.

More info here on our webstore.


What we are looking for is an owner of an e9x M3 who is willing to let us install these and let us take pictures. We don't have the install instructions finished for the e9x M3 and we no longer have access to the car we used for fit testing and prototyping of these mounts.

For interested individuals:

We would need your car for a day so we can install the mounts and take some media of the install and your car (photogenic cars preferred ). You in return would get of course a free engine mount install and the engine mounts would be yours to keep (a $900 value).

Interested individuals please respond to this thread, or email me - joe@blackforestindustries.com.
Interesting. I was planning on visiting my friend in Raleigh in not too long. Questions:
1) When are you planning to do this? ASAP?
2) What's involved with the install, I'm not familiar.

Pictures of my car in the signature. Thank you
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      12-14-2013, 11:17 AM   #6
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Great product from a company with a great reputation in the VW/ Audi scene

Can't wait to see what else you have in store for the BMW platform.

Too bad I'm on the west coast cause I would volunteer...
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      12-14-2013, 02:20 PM   #7
joe@blackforest
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infantrytroop22:
It is a no-risk proposition, but you do need to be able to come to us in Cary NC

pbonsalb:
The mounts themselves are $179 each, I was including the install in the cost I posted - book time is 6 hours so its somewhat inflated

thekurgan:
Vibra-technics makes quality products, their mounts are bonded rubber while ours are rebuildable polyurethane units. Our mounts actually look most like our Audi mounts:



Which we have been producing longer than Vibra-Technics has been producing their BMW mounts.


W///:

1. We would like to do this as soon as possible - you can send me an email to joe@blackforestindustries.com with your availability if you are interested. We would be happy to use your car as the install vehicle

2. Its just a straightforward engine mount install, but you must lift the motor and remove/loosen the support brace and subframe.

PandaM3:

Thanks for the kind words sir!
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      12-14-2013, 03:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post
infantrytroop22:
It is a no-risk proposition, but you do need to be able to come to us in Cary NC

pbonsalb:
The mounts themselves are $179 each, I was including the install in the cost I posted - book time is 6 hours so its somewhat inflated

thekurgan:
Vibra-technics makes quality products, their mounts are bonded rubber while ours are rebuildable polyurethane units. Our mounts actually look most like our Audi mounts:



Which we have been producing longer than Vibra-Technics has been producing their BMW mounts.


W///:

1. We would like to do this as soon as possible - you can send me an email to joe@blackforestindustries.com with your availability if you are interested. We would be happy to use your car as the install vehicle

2. Its just a straightforward engine mount install, but you must lift the motor and remove/loosen the support brace and subframe.

PandaM3:

Thanks for the kind words sir!
Cool, email sent!
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      12-14-2013, 11:04 PM   #9
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Are these ready to ship?

Discount for two sets?
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      12-14-2013, 11:12 PM   #10
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PS, maybe post in the engine forum too.
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      12-15-2013, 03:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe@blackforest View Post
Vibra-technics makes quality products, their mounts are bonded rubber while ours are rebuildable polyurethane units.
What does this mean to the end user? I just purchased the Vibra-technics mounts for my M3 and have heard good reports from owners that have them. My mounts looked pretty bad for ~53K and I think that many of older model M3 owners would look similar.

What would be the difference between bonded rubber and polyurethane?

What is the estimated life of each type versus the factory mounts?

What are the differences in vibration/dampening characteristics? Strength?

I presume neither your mounts, nor the vibra ones are fluid filed (I believe the factory ones are?)?

Do you have any graphs/technical data on your product?

As an example - this is one of the things I looked at closely before purchasing the vibra ones:



Looking forward to hearing more about these. Always nice to see a quality product hit the market for our cars!

Warot, please keep us updated. The mounts they pulled out of yours looked just like mine! You'll see my stock engine mounts posted soon in our build thread. One of the factory mounts actually ripped in half while removing the engine from the subframe!
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      12-16-2013, 11:37 AM   #12
joe@blackforest
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schnell325:
These are ready to ship, you will just be on your own for install since we haven't finished the install instructions I will give everyone on the M3 post board and extra 10% off the intro price, just put this coupon code in during checkout: M3POST

Mike Benvo

Some good questions here - Ill do my best to answer them

The main difference between rebuildable poly mounts and bonded rubber ones is the freedom to service/upgrade should you choose. We have 3 stages available for our mounts (though we only have the stage 2 listed for the M3 and that is what we would recommend).

Stage 1 (65a polyurethane)is for street only and is stiffer than stock, but not for heavy use in these cars.

Stage 2 (85a polyurethane)is a street/strip setup, that is ideal for the performance minded enthusiast and someone who plans to auto-x/track the car occasionally.

Stage 3 (delrin) is a race setup - close to solid aluminum in performance.

All of these bushings can be purchased separately from us (though not yet listed) so you can swap/tune the mounts to the experience that you want.

I could talk until I'm blue in the face about positives and negatives about urethane and rubber - but the differences come down to the negatives:

Rubber is biodegradable and polyurethane exhibits "memory" and can wear unevenly.

We think the benefits of the polyurethane outweigh the negatives and do everything we can to ensure that the negative characteristics are minimized.

Dampening and vibration characteristics come down to the construction and hardness of the material. End of Story. The harder, the more vibration from the engine - there is no magic design to remove this (it can be minimized, but never removed). Whether its rubber, polyurethane, acetal (delrin), UHMWPE the cabin feel comes down to how hard the material is, and how solidly it is mounted to the chassis.

I understand the desire to have graphs and data to show the function of the mount, but the only effective measure is hardness of the material - there isn't any way to measure the reduced deflection of a specific mount since it moves in 3 dimensions.

The Vibra-Technics graph you posted is a sales graph - that is to say, it looks nice, but doesn't tell you much of anything, and most likely is based on presumed characteristics and not actual data. I don't trust graphs with faux carbon fiber backrounds. My point is, I could put a bar coaster between two pieces of aluminum and it would exhibit the same properties shown in that graph vs a rubber engine mount, but that doesn't prove anything about the mount's effectiveness.

What they are showing you is the deflection caused by the construction and hydraulic material inside a stock motor mount. A mount with a solid bushing would never deflect 6mm with the force loads listed in that graph. Keep in mind that durometer is measured using a frustum with a maximum depth of 2.5mm. So even a low A durometer material we would expect to deflect very little.

I don't know the exact durometer of their mounts, but I suspect its around 80a from what I have seen of their other applications. That being said, if you have purchased their mounts - Keep them - I'm sure they will work great and you will like them. If you are looking for mounts, buy ours

Either way, the stock mounts are what we are trying to rid the planet of If you are a performance oriented owner, getting rid of them should be a priority. The mount in a E3x M3 is the exact same size, design and construction (albeit slightly stiffer rubber) as a 1992 325i. Its shocking to me that BMW has advanced its engine mount technology so little in 2 decades. I think anyone that has a stock engine mount, especially like yours Mike that has 50k plus miles on them, would benefit from the upgrade significantly.

What that Vibra-Technics graph does effectively show is what happens to a stock mount over time - that 6mm of deflection is the sag that occurs over time with a stock mount that has a hydraulic center section. First it sags, then it degrades, and ultimately it rips apart:



That being said - 100k is a perfectly acceptable lifespan for an engine mount, and we would expect ours to have a similar lifespan (depending on conditions of course), though when it is worn, you simply replace the bushings and refresh the mount, our design can't come apart in the same way (though that's not to say you can't damage them, they are not indestructible).

Sorry about the length of the post, that was a good way to spend the last 30 minutes of my morning
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      12-16-2013, 11:41 AM   #13
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Located in n.y but let me know 516-642-2866 Ryan
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      12-16-2013, 12:46 PM   #14
joe@blackforest
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Ryan - thanks for the interest, but we do have an individual set up to help us tentatively.
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      12-16-2013, 03:04 PM   #15
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Order sent

Thanks for you help Joe
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      12-18-2013, 01:24 PM   #16
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Looking forward to helping you guys out.

Full write-up and review to follow
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      12-18-2013, 01:41 PM   #17
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See you guys Monday! My friend and I will give her a nice bath on Sunday.
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      12-18-2013, 02:16 PM   #18
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Curious to hear about first hand experience on nvh after these are installed. I thought polyurethane also requires lubrication from time to time while rubber won't?
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      12-18-2013, 03:04 PM   #19
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e92zero - The engine mounts never require lubrication. "Squeaky" polyurethane is the result of a dissimilar material moving against the polyurethane surface.

Sway bars squeak because the twist of the bars outer surface is enough to create shear against the face if the inside of the bushing.

These motor mounts are not ever in a true shear condition, the bushings (while not loaded symmetrically at all times) are almost always in compression, or in a rebound condition so they never squeak.
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      12-18-2013, 03:05 PM   #20
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Warot - Were looking forward to it!
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