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      04-19-2012, 10:40 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
... I think racing autox is gay but for improving car control there is no better place and then applying that knowledge to the track will make you a very well rounded driver. That's my approach and it has worked for me so far.
Gay?? I suppose you lay waste every time you show up.
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      04-19-2012, 11:01 AM   #46
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Gay?? I suppose you lay waste every time you show up.
I am not sure what his experience of auto-x was, but if it was "gay", it sounds like he was doing it wrong!
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      04-19-2012, 11:16 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by OC3
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
One thing I would add is it that slides are easier to catch by thinking ahead.
Indeed. I heard more than a few very experienced track people say "you almost have to anticipate it."


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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Not sure I understand. I think I would want the clutch to disengage so I don't spin the motor backwards...how would downshifting help?
Oh, I'm not saying I the driver downshifted. The car/DCT does it by itself.

In several spins I was in, I'd be in S3 at the beginning of the spin and, when the car came to a stop, it's in S1.

I even have a helmet-mounted video showing the dashboard in one of those spins where, somewhere during mid-spin, it changes from S3 to S2, then once the car came to a full stop, it changed to S1. I was too busy w/ the steering and throttle to be doing anything w/ the gear, including trying to put the DCT into N.

In your video your car was rolling backwards. Even if the DCT downshifted to S1 was it still in gear while Illinois backwards? I would think that can't be good and if it was a manual car I would engage the clutch.

How does the DCT account for a spin like this when the car rolls backwards? Is it smart enough to put it in neutral? If it doesn't is there any damage to the engine or being jn gear and rolling backwards?
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      04-19-2012, 11:53 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
In your video your car was rolling backwards. Even if the DCT downshifted to S1 was it still in gear while Illinois backwards? I would think that can't be good and if it was a manual car I would engage the clutch.

How does the DCT account for a spin like this when the car rolls backwards? Is it smart enough to put it in neutral? If it doesn't is there any damage to the engine or being jn gear and rolling backwards?
As posted earlier in this thread:

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While having fun in an empty snow covered parking lot, the impression I was getting is that DCT is smart enough to detect that the car is in a spin and disengages the clutches.
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      04-19-2012, 12:21 PM   #49
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There's been some pretty good and interesting advice in this thread. You can get away with a lot more with smooth inputs, so that's probably been my biggest focus over my last few years of tracking. Driving the Kink at Road America is probably one of the best spots to practice slow inputs at a high speed corner.

I did flash back, though, to some of the previous argumentative threads on this forum about turning DSC off at the track, and this thread likely provides a good argument for weaning off of it as soon as possible (though going DSC off and first time on rcomps the same weekend is likely asking for trouble). I'll agree with the above comment about the best way to learn is exceending the limits, but preferably in small ways vs large. A great learning experience for me was driving in snow this past winter a few times in A/S tires (I have winters for my M3, but not the R). I Realize A/S in snow isn't the best idea, but it was great skid practice, since the A/S slid much easier than winters would have, so I got great practice feeling and correcting.
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      04-19-2012, 12:40 PM   #50
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One of the tricks to getting away from DSC is to drive the track at 9/10 or "aggressive" and not have the light flash. If you see it flashing at you and you either don't feel why or actually felt it change the yaw of the car...you shouldn't turn it off, yet.

In other words...think of DSC as a wet track simulator. The inputs that trigger DSC intervention are often the same things that you cannot get away with on a slick track.

DSC can be used as a "check ride" in otherwords. It doesn't help recovery or real car control...but it does help keep the car balanced, understand taking a "set", and rewards smoothness.
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      04-19-2012, 01:07 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
One of the tricks to getting away from DSC is to drive the track at 9/10 or "aggressive" and not have the light flash. If you see it flashing at you and you either don't feel why or actually felt it change the yaw of the car...you shouldn't turn it off, yet.

In other words...think of DSC as a wet track simulator. The inputs that trigger DSC intervention are often the same things that you cannot get away with on a slick track.

DSC can be used as a "check ride" in otherwords. It doesn't help recovery or real car control...but it does help keep the car balanced, understand taking a "set", and rewards smoothness.
The concept you present makes a lot of sense.

However DSC/MDM can do quick interventions without flashing the light in the dash. A more experienced driver will feel it kicking in, but a more novice one might not. This could give him a false sense of car control.
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      04-19-2012, 01:30 PM   #52
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Honestly, my experience with DSC are all in E46's (and ASC in older)...which I think are a little slower and more crude.

I didn't know the cars will intervene without presenting an indicator...I've never felt it without seeing it.

Must wear thinner pants.
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      04-19-2012, 03:11 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by armyav8tor View Post
My philosophy is, the quickest way to learn the limit is to exceed it.
The DE organization I run with says the oppposite..quoting Skip Barber (I think)...you don't have to spin it to find the limits.

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Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
One of the tricks to getting away from DSC is to drive the track at 9/10 or "aggressive" and not have the light flash. If you see it flashing at you and you either don't feel why or actually felt it change the yaw of the car...you shouldn't turn it off, yet.

In other words...think of DSC as a wet track simulator. The inputs that trigger DSC intervention are often the same things that you cannot get away with on a slick track.

DSC can be used as a "check ride" in otherwords. It doesn't help recovery or real car control...but it does help keep the car balanced, understand taking a "set", and rewards smoothness.
I've found that if you are on R-Comps, you should be at a level where you are past relying on DSC to clue you in. From my experience, you really should be on street tires.

For me, the decision to go with stickier tires was hard to figure out. Until my first weekend on the Conti slicks. I thought it was significantly different especially since I had really dialed in my car and was very comfortable with it. Then the slicks threw me off.

I think I am ready because now I am confident with oversteer, feeling things with my butt , and sliding the car around a little bit.
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      04-19-2012, 04:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
The DE organization I run with says the oppposite..quoting Skip Barber (I think)...you don't have to spin it to find the limits.
...
True, but I think that the process will be much slower if you're never able to push to and beyond the limit. I did SB and I think that all my prior AX experience gave me a big advantage over the other guys.

A car control clinic with a good variable grip skid pad can really accelerate the learning curve dramatically. Until you get all crossed up and save it, you just don't know how fast things can happen and how much you can do to save things, so long as you act early.

Dave
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      04-19-2012, 04:51 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
In your video your car was rolling backwards. Even if the DCT downshifted to S1 was it still in gear while Illinois backwards? I would think that can't be good and if it was a manual car I would engage the clutch.

How does the DCT account for a spin like this when the car rolls backwards? Is it smart enough to put it in neutral? If it doesn't is there any damage to the engine or being jn gear and rolling backwards?
As posted earlier in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
While having fun in an empty snow covered parking lot, the impression I was getting is that DCT is smart enough to detect that the car is in a spin and disengages the clutches.
I think so too. Plus, remember, with DCT in S1 on an inclined stop sign/light, if you ease off the brake, the car rolls like it's in N even though the dash displays S1.
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      04-19-2012, 06:48 PM   #56
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True, but I think that the process will be much slower if you're never able to push to and beyond the limit. I did SB and I think that all my prior AX experience gave me a big advantage over the other guys.

A car control clinic with a good variable grip skid pad can really accelerate the learning curve dramatically. Until you get all crossed up and save it, you just don't know how fast things can happen and how much you can do to save things, so long as you act early.

Dave
Oh, I agree with you. Definitely speeds up the learning curve. I think the key is to be smart about it on the track. Like...make sure there's no wall or drainage ditch nearby.
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      04-19-2012, 06:55 PM   #57
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Denis, email me the data of your spin. Let me take a look

There should be four files for each session (.dat, .drk, .gpk, .rrk).
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      04-19-2012, 07:28 PM   #58
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Denis, email me the data of your spin. Let me take a look

There should be four files for each session (.dat, .drk, .gpk, .rrk).
e-mail sent. Be gentle with me.
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      04-20-2012, 07:29 AM   #59
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Gay?? I suppose you lay waste every time you show up.
I guess I should not have used that word but what I meant was I don't find it fun to do it for competition. I'm there to sharpen up my skills, precision and finese and most importantly to find the limits of the car. It doesn't get my blood pumping at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
The DE organization I run with says the oppposite..quoting Skip Barber (I think)...you don't have to spin it to find the limits.
Well, no DE organization is going to encourage you to spin the car on their track. I went through my stint at the Nurburgring without a spin but that's because there is no margin for error on that track and I was no where near the limits. Also, as dcstep said, the progression is much slower. I have not done a skidpad yet and would jump on the opportunity if given the chance but I am able to drift around cones on an AutoX quite easily so I don't think it is completely necessary in my case.
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      04-20-2012, 08:32 AM   #60
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I think you have to practice getting out of "oh shit, I'm gonna crash" mode when the backend steps out and work on getting into calm, quick countersteer, bring the wheel back and throttle control mode.
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      04-20-2012, 04:11 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by M3 Montreal View Post
In your video your car was rolling backwards. Even if the DCT downshifted to S1 was it still in gear while Illinois backwards? I would think that can't be good and if it was a manual car I would engage the clutch.

How does the DCT account for a spin like this when the car rolls backwards? Is it smart enough to put it in neutral? If it doesn't is there any damage to the engine or being jn gear and rolling backwards?
I spun out in the rain a couple weeks ago. I basically did a 360 on the track (but didn't go backwards), and when I came to a stop the car was in S1. When I hit the throttle, the chime went off, and the display said to put the foot on the brake first. After that, it was smooth sailing. So it does seem like there is some logic to save the DCT in a spin. I had a tech inspection done at the dealership since then, and no error codes came up, so it looks like all is well.
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      04-20-2012, 04:17 PM   #62
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I spun out in the rain a couple weeks ago. I basically did a 360 on the track (but didn't go backwards), and when I came to a stop the car was in S1. When I hit the throttle, the chime went off, and the display said to put the foot on the brake first. After that, it was smooth sailing. So it does seem like there is some logic to save the DCT in a spin. I had a tech inspection done at the dealership since then, and no error codes came up, so it looks like all is well.
And if you keep the start-stop function activated, it will shut down the engine to save the environment .

Watch at 2:30 into the video:
http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/jer...s-16-episode-5

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      04-20-2012, 08:32 PM   #63
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how modified is your car? i would still be running stock suspension if i was you. its tempting but going to modified suspensions and sticky rubber too soon makes it too hard to learn limits in an incremental manner...at least thats what i've learned.
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      04-20-2012, 09:54 PM   #64
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how modified is your car? i would still be running stock suspension if i was you. its tempting but going to modified suspensions and sticky rubber too soon makes it too hard to learn limits in an incremental manner...at least thats what i've learned.
I think he bought the car in the state that it's in. He just added camber plates.
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      04-21-2012, 12:59 PM   #65
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I think he bought the car in the state that it's in. He just added camber plates.
Right...well, imo --- need to have a very good handle on car control with stock suspension and street tires...then car control AT THE LIMIT with stock suspension and street tires...before you start adding suspension, tires, brakes into the mix.

Jumping to heavily track prepped or race car slows your progress IMO. The more capable the car, the more capable the driver should be.

I would recommend to the OP to do a handful of auto-x days if he hasn't already. While Autox driving is generally much choppier than on track, it does acquaint you with the limits of the car quickly. Granted, sideways at 45mph is different than at 90mph...but better than nothing.
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      04-21-2012, 04:26 PM   #66
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Right...well, imo --- need to have a very good handle on car control with stock suspension and street tires...then car control AT THE LIMIT with stock suspension and street tires...before you start adding suspension, tires, brakes into the mix.

Jumping to heavily track prepped or race car slows your progress IMO. The more capable the car, the more capable the driver should be.

I would recommend to the OP to do a handful of auto-x days if he hasn't already. While Autox driving is generally much choppier than on track, it does acquaint you with the limits of the car quickly. Granted, sideways at 45mph is different than at 90mph...but better than nothing.
Good advice - thanks. I started in stock E92 - did a few events. Bought the E46 a did a few more on stock tires. Quite honestly, traction control was really masking a lot of my bad habits. While not practical to go backwards with respect to car mods, I have reset my own internal expectations. I have a PCA PDS next week that focuses on car control in an AutoX type of environment.
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