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      04-03-2012, 09:19 AM   #1
dizzyj
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better brake modulation?

My E90 is stock and the brakes have such a small area on the pedal to modulate. I find it hard to heal toe simply because to hit my heal on the gas, I'm having to stomp on the brakes. Would different pads give the the same/better stopping power while offering a wider range of modulation? if so what do you recommend?
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      04-03-2012, 11:31 AM   #2
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Is it a problem on track or just on the street? I've found in the past (currently have DCT) that certain cars require the deep pedal push of heavy braking--typically in a track setting--to properly align the height of the brake and gas pedals for easy heel-toeing. Oftentimes on the street you don't have the brake pedal depressed far enough for an easy roll of your ankle/foot down and to the right.
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      04-03-2012, 11:54 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyj View Post
My E90 is stock and the brakes have such a small area on the pedal to modulate. I find it hard to heal toe simply because to hit my heal on the gas, I'm having to stomp on the brakes. Would different pads give the the same/better stopping power while offering a wider range of modulation? if so what do you recommend?
Practice.

The heel on heel-toeing is done with the side of the foot. Use the ball of your right big toe as a lever pivoting on the side of the pedal and push the gas with the side of your right foot (with a little twist of the ankle too)
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      04-03-2012, 12:10 PM   #4
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i wish i could get this down also. i suck at heal toe and its frustrating on the track.
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      04-03-2012, 12:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
Is it a problem on track or just on the street? I've found in the past (currently have DCT) that certain cars require the deep pedal push of heavy braking--typically in a track setting--to properly align the height of the brake and gas pedals for easy heel-toeing. Oftentimes on the street you don't have the brake pedal depressed far enough for an easy roll of your ankle/foot down and to the right.
its a problem on the track. My preference is to actually use the heel, not side of my foot. I do this fine on my 944 race car, but in the m3, the brakes engage just a little too high for my liking. I'd prefer I had to depress the brake more.
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      04-03-2012, 01:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiM3y View Post
Practice.

The heel on heel-toeing is done with the side of the foot. Use the ball of your right big toe as a lever pivoting on the side of the pedal and push the gas with the side of your right foot (with a little twist of the ankle too)
What he said. I find the side of the foot is a lot easier to do while maintaining brake pressure. I notice people with smaller feet like to swing the heel over, but I have wide enough feet that the side of the foot reaches easily.
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      04-03-2012, 01:09 PM   #7
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so back to my question. will different pads offer different modulation characteristics?
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      04-03-2012, 01:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyj View Post
My E90 is stock and the brakes have such a small area on the pedal to modulate. I find it hard to heal toe simply because to hit my heal on the gas, I'm having to stomp on the brakes. Would different pads give the the same/better stopping power while offering a wider range of modulation? if so what do you recommend?
Wouldn't extended pedals on the bottom side help with heel toe if you're having problems catching the pedal? I use the side of my foot and have no problems, but if you're used to it in your Porsche and can do it fine, it seems to be a problem of differing setup rather than fundamental technique. I find it extremely easy in my BMW, but find it somewhat harder in other 5/6MT cars that I've driven with differing pedal setups. I think there was a pedal, called "BMW" or "Ultimate" or something that only extends portions of the pedal, like the lower left, center, or upper left. I'd try that.

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so back to my question. will different pads offer different modulation characteristics?
Yes, different pads offer different modulation characteristics. I'm no expert, but hopefully I'm explaining this correctly? It's in the initial bite: some pads bite harder when you simply touch the pedal, and some you have to get on them pretty hard for them to achieve maximum stopping power. As for what pads do what, I'm no expert on that.
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      04-03-2012, 01:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
Wouldn't extended pedals on the bottom side help with heel toe if you're having problems catching the pedal? I use the side of my foot and have no problems, but if you're used to it in your Porsche and can do it fine, it seems to be a problem of differing setup rather than fundamental technique. I find it extremely easy in my BMW, but find it somewhat harder in other 5/6MT cars that I've driven with differing pedal setups. I think there was a pedal, called "BMW" or "Ultimate" or something that only extends portions of the pedal, like the lower left, center, or upper left. I'd try that.

Edit:



Yes, different pads offer different modulation characteristics. I'm no expert, but hopefully I'm explaining this correctly? It's in the initial bite: some pads bite harder when you simply touch the pedal, and some you have to get on them pretty hard for them to achieve maximum stopping power. As for what pads do what, I'm no expert on that.
Ultimatepedals.com
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      04-03-2012, 01:18 PM   #10
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Ultimatepedals.com
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      04-03-2012, 01:52 PM   #11
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Sorry, I dont think I described my problem that well. Its not that the break peddle is too far left or right to the gas, but that the height of where brake pedal engages to too high compared to the gas pedal. In order for me to kick the gas I have to have the brake fully engaged, which is often too much brake for the corner. If there was an adjustment to just move the brake pedal closer to the floor, I'd be happy with how the brakes operate, or if I had more modulation I would have the same effect. I actually think the stock brakes bite too hard, too early for me. It seems like all the braking is done right when you touch the pedal, then the harder you press, there really is not much more stopping power left.
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      04-03-2012, 01:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
Wouldn't extended pedals on the bottom side help with heel toe if you're having problems catching the pedal? I use the side of my foot and have no problems, but if you're used to it in your Porsche and can do it fine, it seems to be a problem of differing setup rather than fundamental technique. I find it extremely easy in my BMW, but find it somewhat harder in other 5/6MT cars that I've driven with differing pedal setups. I think there was a pedal, called "BMW" or "Ultimate" or something that only extends portions of the pedal, like the lower left, center, or upper left. I'd try that.

Edit:



Yes, different pads offer different modulation characteristics. I'm no expert, but hopefully I'm explaining this correctly? It's in the initial bite: some pads bite harder when you simply touch the pedal, and some you have to get on them pretty hard for them to achieve maximum stopping power. As for what pads do what, I'm no expert on that.
ya, thats what im thinking of. I just dont have that much experinece with different pads. But, my stock pads are getting warn, and if I'm going to spend the money, I might as well see what all options I have.
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      04-03-2012, 02:30 PM   #13
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Maybe you just need a pedal on the accelerator to bring it up higher.

Are you pressing the brakes so far that you're into ABS? Trying to understand the comment "too much brakes".

One habit I often find my students doing when trying to heel toe, or even shifting in a braking zone...is that they often are in a rush to downshift. The downshift should be completed towards the end of the braking zone. This requires less blip, and less accelerator pedal travel. Not sure if this is your problem, but though I'd mention it.
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      04-03-2012, 02:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Maybe you just need a pedal on the accelerator to bring it up higher.

Are you pressing the brakes so far that you're into ABS? Trying to understand the comment "too much brakes".

One habit I often find my students doing when trying to heel toe, or even shifting in a braking zone...is that they often are in a rush to downshift. The downshift should be completed towards the end of the braking zone. This requires less blip, and less accelerator pedal travel. Not sure if this is your problem, but though I'd mention it.
this is a good comment and something i recently picked up. i get almost all my braking done prior to gear changes so its unsettling the car less because the rear isnt quite so light at that point and we have undulations under braking that also make this effect more pronounced at PR, making the later shift a better spot to get it done.
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      04-03-2012, 03:06 PM   #15
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I think It is kind of the same problem I was running into. My previous car didn't have the throttle pegged at the base, it was a floating peddle much like the brake in our cars. I find it a whole lot easier doing heal toe with my heal in the brake and my toes on the throttle....I find it significantly easier for me to bring the revs up.
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      04-03-2012, 03:43 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyj View Post
Sorry, I dont think I described my problem that well. Its not that the break peddle is too far left or right to the gas, but that the height of where brake pedal engages to too high compared to the gas pedal. In order for me to kick the gas I have to have the brake fully engaged, which is often too much brake for the corner. If there was an adjustment to just move the brake pedal closer to the floor, I'd be happy with how the brakes operate, or if I had more modulation I would have the same effect. I actually think the stock brakes bite too hard, too early for me. It seems like all the braking is done right when you touch the pedal, then the harder you press, there really is not much more stopping power left.
Platform shoes?

Seriously though, speaking of the brake pedal being too high compared to the gas pedal, you should try a Lotus - the height difference is even worse (which is what made me think of platform shoes).
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      04-03-2012, 10:32 PM   #17
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Platform shoes?
On the left: The latest boots and driving suit from OMP might do the trick...these boots are particularly appropriate for "money" shifts...

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      04-04-2012, 12:01 AM   #18
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I can't think of (not saying it doesn't happen) when I'm downshifting and I'm not on the brakes relatively hard. If you are brushing the brakes or using a light application, I don't think you'll slow the car enough to warrant a gear change.

I just used PF01s at the track this weekend and the modulation is about the same as stock pads...maybe a little less initial bite. But its also just like stock in that the brake feels artifically boosted at first and as you don't get a lot more pressure as you further bury the brake pedal in the carpet.
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      04-04-2012, 12:05 AM   #19
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On the left: The latest boots and driving suit from OMP might do the trick...these boots are particularly appropriate for "money" shifts...

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      04-04-2012, 11:14 AM   #20
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On the left: The latest boots and driving suit from OMP might do the trick...these boots are particularly appropriate for "money" shifts...

lol thats a riot!

I didnt think about adding an extension to the gas pedal causing it to be higher. Thats actually a good idea.
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      04-04-2012, 11:30 AM   #21
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Quote:
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I think It is kind of the same problem I was running into. My previous car didn't have the throttle pegged at the base, it was a floating peddle much like the brake in our cars. I find it a whole lot easier doing heal toe with my heal in the brake and my toes on the throttle....I find it significantly easier for me to bring the revs up.
I just caught this....really? Brake with the heel? That sure is asking you're leg (big muscle) to do a real delicate task. You should maybe reconsider this just in case you drive a car with a tendency to lockup. Just saying.
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      04-04-2012, 11:43 AM   #22
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Hey, he says he does it a-okay with his Porsche, so if it works it works, right?

OP, try PMing vendor wwjd15, he's tried a vast array of pads from when I've talked to him. He seems to favor Endless pads, but he's tried other pads as well, like Ferodo, Hawk, etc.
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