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      05-01-2012, 09:25 AM   #89
ScotchAndCigar
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Originally Posted by Michael5155 View Post
I'm just one little (though I do need to lose weight) democratic voice, but I don't typically vote democratic to tell successful people their success is unacceptable. Just the opposite... I admire anyone who can make it to the 1%, even the 5%, heck, even the 25%. I vote democratic to (hopefully) make sure everyone pays his/her fair share toward our democracy. Sure wealthy folks pay a lot of taxes when compared to an everyday working stiff. But when you look at the percentage of a middle-class salary that goes toward paying his/her fair share, it is higher than the percentage more wealthy folks pay. Why should a hard working middle class individual pay 25% in taxes and a wealthy person pay just 15% or less or not at all or even get money BACK!? They should both pay the same.
exactly
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      05-01-2012, 09:37 AM   #90
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the people in this country that have more than others
By the way, I noticed your Freudian slip - what one has is unrelated to income tax. I can have a billion dollars from a family inheritance, and pay no income tax. Income tax is simply taken as a percentage from what you earn; it's non-partisan, not class-based, and impartial. Can you see that?
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      05-01-2012, 01:12 PM   #91
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exactly
...by extension of this logic, shouldn't EVERYBODY pay the same rate, 25% or other?
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      05-01-2012, 02:50 PM   #92
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...by extension of this logic, shouldn't EVERYBODY pay the same rate, 25% or other?
Why is there suddenly an epidemic of people who don't understand graduated taxes? I mean, they've only been in place for 100 years in the US.

I support the graduated (or progressive) tax system that we've had for the past century. Is that not clear?
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      05-01-2012, 06:30 PM   #93
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My effective tax rate this time came down to about 16%, and that was only possible with the help of mortgage interest deduction (never pay down that house!).

And the total income tax I actually paid was more than roughly half of all workers in the country. And in round terms, pretty much enough cash to support two lower middle-class families for a year. The American taxpayer is carrying a heavy load in his backpack.

Don't need more revenue, need less spending.
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      05-01-2012, 08:05 PM   #94
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My effective tax rate this time came down to about 16%, and that was only possible with the help of mortgage interest deduction (never pay down that house!).

And the total income tax I actually paid was more than roughly half of all workers in the country. And in round terms, pretty much enough cash to support two lower middle-class families for a year. The American taxpayer is carrying a heavy load in his backpack.

Don't need more revenue, need less spending.
Heartwarming, but irrelevant. Seems like no one will answer the question about a graduated tax system, so I'll go ahead and draw my own conclusion.

You won't answer because it would be hypocritical - you believe in graduated taxes for lower and middle incomes, but not for higher incomes. So it's OK for low & middle income people to shell-out every non-essential penny in taxes, but upper income people can enjoy most of their income tax-free. Is that about right?
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      05-01-2012, 08:23 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Why is there suddenly an epidemic of people who don't understand graduated taxes? I mean, they've only been in place for 100 years in the US.

I support the graduated (or progressive) tax system that we've had for the past century. Is that not clear?
...for the same reason there is an epidemic of people who think it's okay that half of the country pays zero income tax. I guess that's the starting point of your graduated tax system.
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      05-01-2012, 08:27 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Heartwarming, but irrelevant. Seems like no one will answer the question about a graduated tax system, so I'll go ahead and draw my own conclusion.

You won't answer because it would be hypocritical - you believe in graduated taxes for lower and middle incomes, but not for higher incomes. So it's OK for low & middle income people to shell-out every non-essential penny in taxes, but upper income people can enjoy most of their income tax-free. Is that about right?
Wanting less spending does not mean one is in favor of the wealthy paying less taxes, or any other erroneous conclusion. It means we want less spending.
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      05-01-2012, 08:29 PM   #97
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Any system that allows for an individual upper middle class taxpayer to pay more than millions and millions of people added together would seem truly unfair. Especially given that the amount of those recycled, redistributed resources consumed by an individual is at parity.

Flat tax, across the board would work ok, no deductions. But that will never fly as the less successful will not like contributing and vote accordingly. Rights without responsibility or contribution is a liberal notion.
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      05-01-2012, 08:34 PM   #98
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Heartwarming, but irrelevant. Seems like no one will answer the question about a graduated tax system, so I'll go ahead and draw my own conclusion.

You won't answer because it would be hypocritical - you believe in graduated taxes for lower and middle incomes, but not for higher incomes. So it's OK for low & middle income people to shell-out every non-essential penny in taxes, but upper income people can enjoy most of their income tax-free. Is that about right?
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Any system that allows for an individual upper middle class taxpayer to pay more than millions and millions of people added together would seem truly unfair. Especially given that the amount of those recycled, redistributed resources consumed by an individual is at parity.

Flat tax, across the board would work ok, no deductions. But that will never fly as the less successful will not like contributing and vote accordingly. Rights without responsibility or contribution is a liberal notion.
Come now OldArmy have you no compassion?
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      05-01-2012, 08:50 PM   #99
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Come now OldArmy have you no compassion?
A very good question and the answer depends on what you mean by it?

If it means do I automatically assume that government is smarter than I am and better able to judge and address (with my possessions) need, the answer would be no.

Question: Is it compassionate to invent and sustain government programs that never solve the issue they were created to address? They only grow in cost and expansiveness while the population they serve never gets better or smaller. Fair and compassionate to take my possessions to fund these programs when I will never participate in them and they will never solve the challenge at hand?
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      05-01-2012, 09:02 PM   #100
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there is an epidemic of people who think it's okay that half of the country pays zero income tax.
Not in the least true, but still irrelevant. You still can't answer - do you accept a graduated tax system?
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Wanting less spending does not mean one is in favor of the wealthy paying less taxes, or any other erroneous conclusion. It means we want less spending.
Once again, we're not talking about spending, and not once did I comment on spending, so how could I have made a conclusion regarding spending?
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      05-01-2012, 09:51 PM   #101
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Flat tax, across the board would work ok, no deductions.
A flat tax is idiotic. What will it be, 10% for all, and the country goes bankrupt, or 30% for all, and the working class gets wiped out? And boy, wouldn't it be great for me, with my kids and mortgage, to pay the same exact tax as a single guy with the same income! Sign me up for that!
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Rights without responsibility or contribution is a liberal notion.
And making douchebag statements is a conservative notion.
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Fair and compassionate to take my possessions to fund these programs when I will never participate in them and they will never solve the challenge at hand?
Nobody's taking your possessions, old man. You don't seem to understand how taxes work: they tax your income, not your stuff. And do me a favor; let me know when you get to the point that you turn down medicaire and social security, so I can stop funding your benefits.
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      05-01-2012, 11:07 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
A flat tax is idiotic. What will it be, 10% for all, and the country goes bankrupt, or 30% for all, and the working class gets wiped out? And boy, wouldn't it be great for me, with my kids and mortgage, to pay the same exact tax as a single guy with the same income! Sign me up for that!
And making douchebag statements is a conservative notion.
Nobody's taking your possessions, old man. You don't seem to understand how taxes work: they tax your income, not your stuff. And do me a favor; let me know when you get to the point that you turn down medicaire and social security, so I can stop funding your benefits.
Good point about the flat tax.

Regarding your comment about turning down medicare and social security, I'm reminded of my brother, a staunch conservative/republican, maybe even more republican than OldArmy (if that's possible!). He's against any handout: medicare, social security, unemployment compensation, welfare, Salvation Army buckets at X-Mas, you get the point. But after he lost his job he happily got in the unemployment line and cashed all his unemployment checks. He even got an extension using bogus job interview calls. He's my brother, so I don't throw it in his face. But anytime I leave a family gathering after being subjected to his Republican ranting I always chuckle to myself.
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      05-02-2012, 07:55 AM   #103
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Regarding your comment about turning down medicare and social security, I'm reminded of my brother, a staunch conservative/republican, maybe even more republican than OldArmy (if that's possible!). He's against any handout: medicare, social security, unemployment compensation, welfare, Salvation Army buckets at X-Mas, you get the point. But after he lost his job he happily got in the unemployment line and cashed all his unemployment checks. He even got an extension using bogus job interview calls. He's my brother, so I don't throw it in his face. But anytime I leave a family gathering after being subjected to his Republican ranting I always chuckle to myself.
Haha, sounds about right!
I can guarantee you, if you asked him why he's taking the handout now, he'd say it's because the democrats caused him to lose his job.

Here's something even more hypocritical - ask OldArmy what he does, and how our taxes pay his salary and benefits and medical coverage, and who's paying his pension.

All I wanted was a straight answer, acknowledging that there's a good reason the US has a graduated tax system with deductions. But you can't get a straight answer from these people, because it exposes their hypocrisy.
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      05-02-2012, 08:30 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar View Post
Here's something even more hypocritical - ask OldArmy what he does, and how our taxes pay his salary and benefits and medical coverage, and who's paying his pension.
Treading a thin line here... I wouldn't really call the military's salary/benefits a "handout," since some of them do happen to give the ultimate sacrifice. Sure, they volunteered for it, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare their salary to a welfare program.

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All I wanted was a straight answer, acknowledging that there's a good reason the US has a graduated tax system with deductions. But you can't get a straight answer from these people, because it exposes their hypocrisy.
I would have to agree, the question has been asked a few times now, and they all just seem to ignore it. And LOL at OldArmy saying a flat tax would work... I'm not too educated on tax policy and tax code, and even I can see how that would completely fail. One of the worst comments I've seen in here recently...
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      05-02-2012, 08:50 AM   #105
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Not in the least true, but still irrelevant. You still can't answer - do you accept a graduated tax system?
Once again, we're not talking about spending, and not once did I comment on spending, so how could I have made a conclusion regarding spending?
What most liberals fail to recognize including you, is that one cannot have a conversation about taxes without having a conversation about spending. DUH This is an income and expense analysis.

The fact of the matter is the US tax code as written is a mess and does not work. Aside from the confusion that it creates and the loop holes that need to be closed that prevent companies like Apple and GE from paying virtually no income tax, further burdening the American worker, anytime there is a system in place that bifurcates the population based on their income where one half contributes nothing while the other half carries the burden it creates an inherent divide; the "haves" and "have-nots." Where one segment of the population that believes the government is their savior and is there to support them by redistributing income collected from the other segment of the population; then there is the other half of the population which continues to feed the beast that has an insatiable appetite.

Truth of the matter is I don't know what tax system would work better, neither do you, but what I do know is that it needs to be reformed and that EVERYONE in this country should contribute SOMETHING, whether that be in the form of a VAT tax or a flat tax or a combination thereof (put whatever %'s you want on that), but a lower tax base for all Americans currently paying taxes which puts more money in their pocket and back into the economy is the system I support. Then we can talk about what is "FAIR." What isn't fair is that nearly half of the population is allowed to vote for the next President, but yet they do not have a vested interest or care how Washington spends money, unless of course you consider their vested interest is how much more they will benefit from entitlements.

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A flat tax is idiotic. What will it be, 10% for all, and the country goes bankrupt, or 30% for all, and the working class gets wiped out? And boy, wouldn't it be great for me, with my kids and mortgage, to pay the same exact tax as a single guy with the same income! Sign me up for that!
How out of touch are you???? NEWS FLASH, our country is going bankrupt! We spend more than we take in, borrow ever dollar that exceeds revenues, we are heading full speed for a brick wall. Not to mention it's a stupid question to ask for one thing, unless you really sit down and analyze the budget. But my gut tells me that combined with deep CUTS across all government agencies, and serious entitlement reform that a flat tax somewhere in the range of 15% to 20% will do the trick.



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And making douchebag statements is a conservative notion.
Nobody's taking your possessions, old man. You don't seem to understand how taxes work: they tax your income, not your stuff. And do me a favor; let me know when you get to the point that you turn down Medicare and social security, so I can stop funding your benefits.
Typical liberal, when all else fails, let's start the name calling and mud slinging. Someone needs to teach you some manners and respect.

Once again you show everyone here that you live in a dream world and fail to recognize the system is broken. Anytime the fed can take money from Social Security and repurpose it without so much as a word or approval from Congress and continues to operate virtually unchecked there is a problem. Social Security is nearing insolvency, Medicare the same. Social Security will be out of cash by 2033. Medicare will be out of money by 2024. Our country is on a path where the face of Medicare/Medicade and Social Security as you and I know it is going to change dramatically whether you like it or not. I pay into this system like everyone else and therefore I expect like everyone else that contributes the money will be there, but truth be told unless there are changes it won't.

Do me a favor let me know when you get to the point of retirement and you are counting on your government pay-out and it's not there, okay?

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      05-02-2012, 10:18 AM   #106
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Treading a thin line here... I wouldn't really call the military's salary/benefits a "handout," since some of them do happen to give the ultimate sacrifice. Sure, they volunteered for it, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to compare their salary to a welfare program
First of all, he's now a government contractor, that's what our taxes pay for. And I never referred to his job (or military service) as a handout, or welfare, nor would I ever say that. I only said that our taxes pay for it.

Why do conservatives assume that any discussion of tax usage must be referring to "handouts" and "welfare"? Our taxes pay for national defense, infrastructure, and the operation of our government.
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What most liberals fail to recognize including you, is that one cannot have a conversation about taxes without having a conversation about spending.
Yes one can, but I've given up trying, because all you want to do is spew conservative platitudes. Most of what you say about spending is true, yes we spend too much, we need to reign it in, we're going bankrupt, blah blah blah. We all know this, but that's another conversation.

But I particularly like how all of you ignore that our revenues have been down due to the recession, and assume that they'll always be this way, even when unemployment is at 5%.
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Typical liberal, when all else fails, let's start the name calling and mud slinging.
I'm just giving back what was doled-out to me, but I guess you didn't read that part. And who says "all else failed"? I haven't failed, but I'm not going to be called a dick and just take it. Try reigning in your compatriots there, m-kay?
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Do me a favor let me know when you get to the point of retirement and you are counting on your government pay-out and it's not there, okay?
It would be there if we had a graduated tax that didn't stop graduating at some arbitrary, politically determined income level.

It's funny, you'll pay high property tax for your big houses, pay high sales tax for your cars, and generally pay more for everything, from suits to vacations. But god forbid if you get progressively taxed on your income like everyone else. Really, I should be the one complaining around here. I make too much to get any assistance whatsoever for my kids' colleges, but I'm expected to shell-out hefty federal, state, and property taxes, which eats up most of my non-essential income. If I had some extra income, I sure wouldn't be complaining.
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      05-02-2012, 10:32 AM   #107
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First of all, he's now a government contractor, that's what our taxes pay for. And I never referred to his job (or military service) as a handout, or welfare, nor would I ever say that. I only said that our taxes pay for it.

Why do conservatives assume that any discussion of tax usage must be referring to "handouts" and "welfare"? Our taxes pay for national defense, infrastructure, and the operation of our government.
Because in the line of posts, we went from talking about him not accepting welfare or medicare or social security, right to him being a hypocrite because his salary is paid for by the American taxpayer. Thanks for the clarification.
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      05-02-2012, 05:40 PM   #108
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And making douchebag statements is a conservative notion.
Typical liberal, when all else fails, let's start the name calling and mud slinging. Someone needs to teach you some manners and respect.
After ScotchAndCigar has called his fellow BMW posters various names in many of his 500 Political posts it occurs to me that the following is the definition that fits him very well:

Merriam-webster:
Political Gadfly: a person who stimulates or annoys especially by persistent criticism
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      05-02-2012, 06:25 PM   #109
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I should be the one complaining around here. I make too much to get any assistance whatsoever for my kids' colleges, but I'm expected to shell-out hefty federal, state, and property taxes, which eats up most of my non-essential income. If I had some extra income, I sure wouldn't be complaining.
EXACTLY!



I have to admit, even though I vehemently disagree with many of the conservative rants on this post, I have much more respect for someone (even if they are republican) who has an opinion, is passionate about it, and isn't afraid to defend it than someone who merely bites the tail of the sheep in front of him/her or is apathetic about issues affecting him/herself, family and country.

I would be willing to bet my BMW that if all of us on this thread got together at a bar, had a few brewskies, shot a couple games of pool, told a few dirty jokes and talked politics, we'd agree more than we'd disagree on general political issues and problems.

I'm sure we would all agree that more people need to take control of their lives, stop watching afternoon Oprah reruns, get off their butts, learn a trade or profession, and pound the pavement for a job rather than looking to Uncle Sam for an unemployment check. And I'm sure we'd all agree that far too many families on welfare suck the taxpayers tit by having more kids just to collect more welfare. And I'm sure we'd all agree there's far too much government waste... and that social security and medicaid will be bankrupt soon. Etc, etc. etc.

But I also think (hope?) we'd all agree every American deserves health care regardless of their ability to pay. I think we'd all agree some social institutions like public education play an important role in our democracy. I think we'd all agree that when someone is down on their luck, lost their job, we, as a society, need to help them out. And I think we'd all agree the obesely wealthy because of tax loopholes do not pay their fair share of taxes when compared to the other 99% of us.

We simply disagree on what roads (public or private) to take to arrive at solutions.

This thread is a perfect example of what is wrong with the current political climate in the US. Polarization. Dems think they're right and won't listen to compromise. Repubs think they're right and won't listen to compromise. I'd even say it's worse than that. I think it's become adversarial. Neither side wants the other to appear right. It's become a middle-school playground argument: "I know you are, but what am I."

And someone who wants to run for office who may be a moderate or independent stands absolutely NO CHANCE of winning election because the big, coorporate parties won't give them any money. We need a third party in the country... but it will never happen. Money carries a bigger voice and influence than common sense and doing the right thing.

Whew! I think I'm done.
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      05-02-2012, 07:24 PM   #110
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After ScotchAndCigar has called his fellow BMW posters various names in many of his 500 Political posts it occurs to me that the following is the definition that fits him very well:

Merriam-webster:
Political Gadfly: a person who stimulates or annoys especially by persistent criticism
Perfect! You repost my defense, but ignore the original offender, then you do exactly what you accuse me of: call me a name.
You've never contributed a useful post, you just come here to attack. Look up troll in the dictionary.
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