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      01-30-2014, 02:50 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
interesting, i thought the idea of the vishnu PWM on the M3 was to have the meth activated and tuned for at once, same basic canned tune everyone else does. Thats what I thought I read about the vishnu kit.
Incorrect. You can simply turn the meth off by keeping it at Map0, and use the other features of the Procede, like overriding the top speed limiter, data logging, etc. You can create custom maps of your liking and switch them on the fly depending on your situation, but Map0 will always be a no meth, no mod map. This allows for the unit to be transparent in situations which require said transparency.
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      01-30-2014, 02:53 PM   #420
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It's not a couple grand more for this kit than most of the US based kits it's about $4k more once you ship it from overseas. Also based on the installation write up that was done it looks like it's about twice the amount of work than most other kits because of the FMIC. With most vendors in the US doing free or very cheap installs on kits they sell your most likely looking at closer to $5k - $6k more for this system when you do the math.
Not to mention the tbe rotrex blower is not self contained and needs an external oil feed (and labor) from the engine.

Get this system to $10k and maybe then it would make sense considering the additional costs and the fact that there is no US based support.
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      01-30-2014, 02:54 PM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
I would disagree, the S65 is VERY temperamental, IATs are going to cause retarding, You can see this by running the car on the dyno, with no downtime, and no dyno tricks. The others you mentioned play a part, but IAT is first and the greatest power loss. Try doing 5 runs in under 6 minutes, while logging everything and you will see the losses congruent with IAT rise.

I dont debate quality fuel, but in marketing tactics that could be many things. mixing 93 and race fuel is not quality fuel, its racegas mix. Run the highest pump octane you can find or dont bring it up. your either on pump fuel or race gas. If you want to know what the car is doing, then use the fuel you normally do. If you want to know what you most capable of, use the race fuel. I dont care, nobody does, but you better say it when posting results or its shady and misleading.

As for your M vS 911, you have another variable, and thats cooling. One was designed from the ground up to support long high performance driving with boost, the other was not and is only doing the best it can.

If you want to compare A-A and A-W then please do, because every other platform knows that A-A will combat heat better over a longer time. water is great at dissipating heat, until its hot, then it takes longer to cool than the aluminum. I request, if you want debate that, find some tech articles and start a new thread, we can do it in there.
Did you not read my post? I said I prefer to air to air.

When you dyno'd back to back to back, did you have full control of the data and log EGTs? Fuel trims? Engine temp? oil temp? FI duty cycle? Timing retardation by cyl? etc etc etc???? Sorry IAT's don't tell the whole story.
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      01-30-2014, 03:04 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by M-powerMode View Post
It's not a couple grand more for this kit than most of the US based kits it's about $4k more once you ship it from overseas. Also based on the installation write up that was done it looks like it's about twice the amount of work than most other kits because of the FMIC. With most vendors in the US doing free or very cheap installs on kits they sell your most likely looking at closer to $5k - $6k more for this system when you do the math.

Get this system to $10k and maybe then it would make sense considering the additional costs and the fact that there is no US based support.
Do you always speak about thing you don't know? The write-ups and review about installation paints a completely different picture than what your saying, so you must have information from somewhere, please share it.

One guy did it in his driveway, a first time install, and the other had a shop do it. Reviews on it are on various forums.


How much was the shipping to your location when you got your price for the kit?


Maybe Wayne can comment, he has the kit. Or the other guy, anyone know what he paid for shipping?

Best yest - Evolve, whats the total come out to?

This is why i stay off forums, everyone knows everything, except what they dont know..

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Did you not read my post? I said I prefer to air to air.

When you dyno'd back to back to back, did you have full control of the data and log EGTs? Fuel trims? Engine temp? oil temp? FI duty cycle? Timing retardation by cyl? etc etc etc???? Sorry IAT's don't tell the whole story.
i never dyno'd my M3. Im saying since you do and have, ill put $$ that IAT is the first and biggest factor in your HP losses if you do the test the way i described. But what do I know..
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      01-30-2014, 03:19 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-powerMode View Post
It's not a couple grand more for this kit than most of the US based kits it's about $4k more once you ship it from overseas. Also based on the installation write up that was done it looks like it's about twice the amount of work than most other kits because of the FMIC. With most vendors in the US doing free or very cheap installs on kits they sell your most likely looking at closer to $5k - $6k more for this system when you do the math.

Get this system to $10k and maybe then it would make sense considering the additional costs and the fact that there is no US based support.
Do you always speak about thing you don't know? The write-ups and review about installation paints a completely different picture than what your saying, so you must have information from somewhere, please share it.

One guy did it in his driveway, a first time install, and the other had a shop do it. Reviews on it are on various forums.


How much was the shipping to your location when you got your price for the kit?


Maybe Wayne can comment, he has the kit. Or the other guy, anyone know what he paid for shipping?

Best yest - Evolve, whats the total come out to?

This is why i stay off forums, everyone knows everything, except what they dont know..

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Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Did you not read my post? I said I prefer to air to air.

When you dyno'd back to back to back, did you have full control of the data and log EGTs? Fuel trims? Engine temp? oil temp? FI duty cycle? Timing retardation by cyl? etc etc etc???? Sorry IAT's don't tell the whole story.
i never dyno'd my M3. Im saying since you do and have, ill put $$ that IAT is the first and biggest factor in your HP losses if you do the test the way i described. But what do I know..
Have you looked in tbe dyno database for the many data logged blower results with back to back to back dyno runs while iat's climbed? Did you read the ess 535 heat soak and vbox testing article?
I've been keeping tabs on all blowers
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      01-30-2014, 03:39 PM   #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-powerMode View Post
Have you looked in tbe dyno database for the many data logged blower results with back to back to back dyno runs while iat's climbed? Did you read the ess 535 heat soak and vbox testing article?
I've been keeping tabs on all blowers
Good reply! For those that can't find the thread in reference:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=702956

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
This is why i stay off forums, everyone knows everything, except what they dont know..

I never dyno'd my M3. Im saying since you do and have, ill put $$ that IAT is the first and biggest factor in your HP losses if you do the test the way i described. But what do I know..
About that....
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      01-30-2014, 03:47 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by M-powerMode View Post
Have you looked in tbe dyno database for the many data logged blower results with back to back to back dyno runs while iat's climbed? Did you read the ess 535 heat soak and vbox testing article?
I've been keeping tabs on all blowers
Did it log down time between runs? Any dyno tricks?

If so, I havent seen that bit of information, as I dont think it exists. I told the other member to test his IAT theory in a way that will show exactly how IATs will kill power. Much like a road course, and real world driving.

Ive seen 2 ESS 535 reviews with IAT and vbox testing, and they do NOT show the same results.

This isnt a hard, new, unfounded or illogical idea - that IATs will kill power, that some intercooler is better than NO intercooler, and that some intercoolers are more efficient than other.


*edit- read that data you linked a bit closer and you will see what ive been saying, read it REAL thorough.. look at what changes and what the best times are. same thing i said, most power 2-3 run, and then tapers off.. even with a better decline

so yea, about that...

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      01-30-2014, 04:01 PM   #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
Did it log down time between runs? Any dyno tricks?

If so, I havent seen that bit of information, as I dont think it exists. I told the other member to test his IAT theory in a way that will show exactly how IATs will kill power. Much like a road course, and real world driving.

Ive seen 2 ESS 535 reviews with IAT and vbox testing, and they do NOT show the same results.

This isnt a hard, new, unfounded or illogical idea - that IATs will kill power, that some intercooler is better than NO intercooler, and that some intercoolers are more efficient than other.
I don't think that's the issue, I think the issue here is that Longboarder speaks from experience, he's not a keyboard jockey. You have dismissed others whose actual experience differ from what you postulate.

Additionally, you're insulting others in this thread, especially with that crack about
Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3
This is why i stay off forums, everyone knows everything, except what they dont know..
but, doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

In this thread http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11957714 didn't you say this
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Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
I think people should realize, that, 1 common factor among supercharged s65's, and rebuilds, is that they all were running methanol. Take that for what its worth.
and then sit silent after Drew showed you were pulling sh*t out of thin air?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Out of all the E9X M3 Supercharged failures around the world, the vast majority did not run Meth, and two of the three failures that did use meth, both had Meth clogging issues, thus running 9+psi on 91 octane only, those could have possibly failed due to the Meth issue, therefore the Meth itself did not cause the failure.

I ran Meth before I went with the VT3, and when they took the motor apart to add drop in Low Compression pistons and carillo rods, the internals looked solid.
Point is, don't come on here and disparage folks. We're all trying to learn together. If you have to disagree, be cool about it.

It is common sense that cooler, denser air makes for a happier car. No one discounts that. The drop off, however, is not like falling off a cliff.
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      01-30-2014, 04:08 PM   #427
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The kit is 14000 USD delivered inc import and all charges.
It's not at all hard to fit.
Some extra time is required to convert to 8 rib and front mount intercooler but both are essential.
It still doesn't take much time to fit.
The car is not cut to pieces (saves you money later).

The power is super consistent in real world hard driving at 600hp because the iat's remain very controlled.
On dyno's and runs against other powerful monsters (650's) they hold their own.
The extra power comes in as low as 2000rpm and really powers up at 3250 rpm. After 6000 it becomes very angry.

.... and this is tge 6.7 psi 600 kit.
Wait till you see what the 8 psi kit does.
Thats proper torque :-)


No kit is perfect.... we have some small issues but none of you know what these are yet.

This kit has predominantly been sold in the uk for obvious reasons.

As for us being new to the supercharger game
.... supercharging is engine tuning.
Its very simple. You either know how to do it right or you don't.
The dme tuning is the easy part. To make it safe is easy (low timing, low cyl pressure valve overlap, 11.5-12.5 AFR).
To make it drive nice spend time on partial load fuelling and that's not hard, just time consuming.

If anyone has questions please ask.

Please do not make assumptions.

Finally no kit is the best. Yes we have build quality and other positive aspects but you do have to pay for them.
For someone with a 9k budget its far from the best.

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      01-30-2014, 04:13 PM   #428
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Btw
Just reading through the exchanges - I will comment on these matters as I have tested many many things.
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      01-30-2014, 04:19 PM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-powerMode View Post
Have you looked in tbe dyno database for the many data logged blower results with back to back to back dyno runs while iat's climbed? Did you read the ess 535 heat soak and vbox testing article?
I've been keeping tabs on all blowers
Did it log down time between runs? Any dyno tricks?

If so, I havent seen that bit of information, as I dont think it exists. I told the other member to test his IAT theory in a way that will show exactly how IATs will kill power. Much like a road course, and real world driving.

Ive seen 2 ESS 535 reviews with IAT and vbox testing, and they do NOT show the same results.

This isnt a hard, new, unfounded or illogical idea - that IATs will kill power, that some intercooler is better than NO intercooler, and that some intercoolers are more efficient than other.


*edit- read that data you linked a bit closer and you will see what ive been saying, read it REAL thorough.. look at what changes and what the best times are. same thing i said, most power 2-3 run, and then tapers off.. even with a better decline

so yea, about that...
Mind me asking what you drive ? And if blown what blower you have ?
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      01-30-2014, 04:25 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by M-powerMode View Post
Not to mention the tbe rotrex blower is not self contained and needs an external oil feed (and labor) from the engine.
I can tell you for sure that the oil system is self contained and can go outside and take pictures to prove it. The "traction fluid" (S/C oil) has its own filter and cooler that mounts down low.

I also didn't pay anything for shipping - it was included in the kit price for me. I don't know if this is still the case.

I would be happy to answer any other questions about the kit as someone who has one and installed it myself.

I know everyone wants dynos and the one time I took it to get tested it wouldn't go over 5psi of boost on the dyno even though it did on the way there and on the way home. It turns out that the technician sheared one of the blow-off valve hoses when he removed the spark plug cover to get the tach reading for the testing. We fixed the hose when the car was taken off the dyno and didn't even consider the fact that this was causing the lack of boost until the next day.

Last edited by WayneM3; 01-30-2014 at 04:29 PM. Reason: typo
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      01-30-2014, 04:34 PM   #431
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IAT is king on the S65.
Period.

This is so easy to prove.

This is the first thermal efficiency test during development.
Simply tune a non intercooled kit.
Add intercooler only.

Control the coolant and oil temps.

Do a back to back run.

Datalogs will show you something simple.

All else equal lower iat boost power massively even with the extra pressure drop of the intercooler (fmic or air to water).
Yes, we do have semi aggressive timing reduction from combustion temp compensation but thats just good to leave alone for safety. Can post the map for you to see.
During development we turn off all compensation tables inc knock sensing so we know what is safe and not just the dme.

We did a huge amount of testing for our s62 intercooled kit. IAT was king again.

The thing is..... it always is and we have physics to back that up.

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      01-30-2014, 04:37 PM   #432
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Thanks Wayne.

Confirmed - Rotrex uses it's own lubrication system which is traction fluid.
Rotrex cannot use engine oil. Try it and see how long it lasts ! :-)
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      01-30-2014, 04:43 PM   #433
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Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
Well aware of the IAT effects on the S65, and already addressed with a Vishnu PWM to help combat it
Do your M3 a favor and get rid of that garbage... Piggyback tunes (what the Vishnu PROcede is) are incapable of modifying your Fueling, Ignition, VANOS tables, which need to modified for a safe N/A tune. In addition, Meth Injection has shown to have very little affect on IAT reduction on the S65, reinforced by data on the various S/C kits that have offered Meth Injection (ESS, AA, Gintani) to combat IATs.

And not for nothing, Meth is not going to be very friendly to the insides of the motor and tuning for it as an octane booster is a TERRIBLE idea, regardless of the platform. Get a proven flash tune and enjoy the consistent, safer power.
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      01-30-2014, 04:48 PM   #434
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Steve went to some expense to install methanol and gained nothing at all when he tested with our kit.
Use real high timing targets and it will help but with low ignition targets which are never going to allow knock without it and you will see very little.
With an effective intercooler setup you will see even less but ic + high timing targets methanol will help.
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      01-30-2014, 04:57 PM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
.... and this is tge 6.7 psi 600 kit.
Wait till you see what the 8 psi kit does.
Thats proper torque :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
We did a huge amount of testing for our s62 intercooled kit. IAT was king again.

The thing is..... it always is and we have physics to back that up.

Billet S62 Mani = Big Power, cannot wait to see what kinda power you put down with your headers & some quality tuning
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      01-30-2014, 05:13 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
IAT is king on the S65.
Period.

This is so easy to prove.

This is the first thermal efficiency test during development.
Simply tune a non intercooled kit.
Add intercooler only.

Control the coolant and oil temps.

Do a back to back run.

Datalogs will show you something simple.

All else equal lower iat boost power massively even with the extra pressure drop of the intercooler (fmic or air to water).
Yes, we do have semi aggressive timing reduction from combustion temp compensation but thats just good to leave alone for safety. Can post the map for you to see.
During development we turn off all compensation tables inc knock sensing so we know what is safe and not just the dme.

We did a huge amount of testing for our s62 intercooled kit. IAT was king again.

The thing is..... it always is and we have physics to back that up.

oh man this brings the E39 Supercharger game to a new level! Thing looks so sick.. no more blown plenum for the E39!
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      01-30-2014, 05:33 PM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit_Boost View Post
Do your M3 a favor and get rid of that garbage... Piggyback tunes (what the Vishnu PROcede is) are incapable of modifying your Fueling, Ignition, VANOS tables, which need to modified for a safe N/A tune. In addition, Meth Injection has shown to have very little affect on IAT reduction on the S65, reinforced by data on the various S/C kits that have offered Meth Injection (ESS, AA, Gintani) to combat IATs.

And not for nothing, Meth is not going to be very friendly to the insides of the motor and tuning for it as an octane booster is a TERRIBLE idea, regardless of the platform. Get a proven flash tune and enjoy the consistent, safer power.
Unless you are well-versed with the full feature set of the Procede, I don't really think you can call it "garbage". While you are entitled to your opinion, unless you've owned one have used it, I don't really think you're in a position to speak on it. No offense meant by that, of course.

As far as the assertion that the internals will have issues with it

Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
I ran Meth before I went with the VT3, and when they took the motor apart to add drop in Low Compression pistons and carillo rods, the internals looked solid.
I linked the originating thread above.




Sal, any intention of offering the S65 kit with that manifold design?

Last edited by whats77inaname; 01-30-2014 at 05:54 PM.
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      01-30-2014, 05:42 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
IAT is king on the S65.
Period.

This is so easy to prove.

This is the first thermal efficiency test during development.
Simply tune a non intercooled kit.
Add intercooler only.

Control the coolant and oil temps.

Do a back to back run.

Datalogs will show you something simple.

All else equal lower iat boost power massively even with the extra pressure drop of the intercooler (fmic or air to water).
Yes, we do have semi aggressive timing reduction from combustion temp compensation but thats just good to leave alone for safety. Can post the map for you to see.
During development we turn off all compensation tables inc knock sensing so we know what is safe and not just the dme.

We did a huge amount of testing for our s62 intercooled kit. IAT was king again.

The thing is..... it always is and we have physics to back that up.

Hi Sal,

I have some data which I think you will find interesting and would appreciate your feedback. But here's the summary:

My S/C kit dyno'd around 575-580 wheel STD fairly consistently on a dynojet at EAS here in SoCal. I then installed a water/meth system. After a number of "fine tuning" sessions with EAS, I finally got it to dyno in a fairly tight range at between 578-581 (initially the water/meth flow was not linear and causing power loss). IATs on all runs varied between 90 def F to ~ 125deg F. Then, I tried something - I stuck a bottle of boost juice in the freezer and then packed it on ice and brought it to EAS dyno again. My attempt was to reduce IAT's significantly (down to below 32def F). So after pouring the freezing water/meth into the tank and doing a couple runs to get the cold meth in the lines, we dyno'd and guess what...I lost power. Lower IAT's caused the opposite effect. So why did power go down when IAT's dropped? Not exactly sure because we didn't have CAN data visability.

In addition, I ran my water/meth system at a recent airstrip event when it was hot thinking it would provide me with an advantage. Nope, my car ran worse...slower 60-130s and slower compared to cars I had previously run against. I have unplugged it and not run it since.

I have a lot of data running water/meth with my 335 and the effect of cooling IATs was undeniable. While I haven't data logged my M3 with water/meth, I'm confident it reduced IATs however I'm also confident that it made my car slower.
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      01-30-2014, 06:06 PM   #439
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Very good discussion here.

The first part is directly inline with our tests, methanol does not add much power at all unless tuned specifically for (not a great idea).

The second part however very interesting. How much power did you lose?
Sure it wasn't the regular over/under correcting correction factors taking effect?

Doesn't make any sensor for the engine to lose any power unless the inlet temp went so low that you ended up in compensation table cell where ignition is removed with low IAT's but normal coolant temps. This is however highly unlikely.

We have tested our intercoolers with no front panel on the car and ramming (close range powerful fan setup) ice cold air at them and we only gained power.

So we have only seen the regular laws of physics being followed like you have seen on the N54.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
Hi Sal,

I have some data which I think you will find interesting and would appreciate your feedback. But here's the summary:

My S/C kit dyno'd around 575-580 wheel STD fairly consistently on a dynojet at EAS here in SoCal. I then installed a water/meth system. After a number of "fine tuning" sessions with EAS, I finally got it to dyno in a fairly tight range at between 578-581 (initially the water/meth flow was not linear and causing power loss). IATs on all runs varied between 90 def F to ~ 125deg F. Then, I tried something - I stuck a bottle of boost juice in the freezer and then packed it on ice and brought it to EAS dyno again. My attempt was to reduce IAT's significantly (down to below 32def F). So after pouring the freezing water/meth into the tank and doing a couple runs to get the cold meth in the lines, we dyno'd and guess what...I lost power. Lower IAT's caused the opposite effect. So why did power go down when IAT's dropped? Not exactly sure because we didn't have CAN data visability.

In addition, I ran my water/meth system at a recent airstrip event when it was hot thinking it would provide me with an advantage. Nope, my car ran worse...slower 60-130s and slower compared to cars I had previously run against. I have unplugged it and not run it since.

I have a lot of data running water/meth with my 335 and the effect of cooling IATs was undeniable. While I haven't data logged my M3 with water/meth, I'm confident it reduced IATs however I'm also confident that it made my car slower.
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      01-30-2014, 06:09 PM   #440
Sal@Evolve
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You already have this one:



Looks different in silver doesn't it!

The M5 and M3 Billet plenums are made to very similar principles especially with respect to achieving equal distribution or charge across cylinders (internal fins).


Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
Unless you are well-versed with the full feature set of the Procede, I don't really think you can call it "garbage". While you are entitled to your opinion, unless you've owned one have used it, I don't really think you're in a position to speak on it. No offense meant by that, of course.

As far as the assertion that the internals will have issues with it



I linked the originating thread above.




Sal, any intention of offering the S65 kit with that manifold design?
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