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      03-29-2012, 09:08 PM   #45
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      03-29-2012, 09:17 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
Thank you for the link! Much appreciated.

It's actually quite easy for a competent tuner to get the car to pass OBD readiness, even with no cats. I can do it in five minutes. But it's a serious violation and I wouldn't ever tamper with emissions related components. The risks far outweigh the reward/benefit.

And Roman: According to the factory BMW Internal documentation, the post cat sensors do in fact have some relation to long term fuel trims (due to catalyst aging), although I agree the primary purpose is a functional check of the cats.
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      03-29-2012, 09:39 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
I'm really sick of people that make statements when they have no idea what they are talking about. No matter what the thread is regarding tuning, alpine335 (who sells OE tunes) is always there running his mouth like he has an education. Alpine, even though you have vested interests in OE tuning, I promise you are doing your friend Jeremy a dis-service. You'd be doing him a favor if you buttoned your lip. Powerchip doesn't modify a lot of the maps that I modify, and I don't modify a lot of the maps that they do (and for specific reasons). I was furious when I found out the minimum timing map on my car was modified by Powerchip. And back in the day my check engine light was completely disabled by them (were talking when Jeremy worked there in 2008/9).
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew - min timing maps modified!? That is nasty!
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      03-29-2012, 09:40 PM   #48
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These threads always just end up being a free for all smack down..
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      03-29-2012, 10:13 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
The only reason one would tamper with OBD readiness is to illegally pass emissions. We will not expose our business or customers to the consequences of this type of activity. I cannot speak for others but we do not alter or disable the rear 02 sensors with our off road catless software. We simply disable the CEL from coming on in the dash due to increased emissions. The CEL will still function from any other issue as designed.

State laws will vary on what can and cannot be used on public roads and so will the monitoring of it but tampering with OBD readiness in an attempt to illegally pass emissions with a catless system is a federal offense in every state. If you think a trained inspection agent cannot smell a catless exhaust system you need to think again. If you want to be street legal and pass emissions you need to have catalytic converters in your vehicle.



Our E-flash remote tuning interface reads and clears codes. It also works with our supercharger systems and will soon be able to program our DCT software

I recall exchanging several PM's with you in November. If I missed one im very sorry but you can email or call me anytime.
According to California Vehicle Code Section 27156, since the smog cel elimination is altering, key word altering, the intended, another key word, intended operation of the system, it places said company, in the same situation. Arguing over the legality of cel deletion is pointless as all parties are committing the same act.

Besides, the probability of getting caught is unlikely. It's just less likely if you have a ready status as that would be the first indication and most would not dig further
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      03-29-2012, 10:16 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Baggy_M View Post
According to California Vehicle Code Section 27156, since the smog cel elimination is altering, key word altering, the intended, another key word, intended operation of the system, it places said company, in the same situation. Arguing over the legality of cel deletion is pointless as all parties are committing the same act.

Besides, the probability of getting caught is unlikely. It's just less likely if you have a ready status as that would be the first indication and most would not dig further
+1

Roman - just curious. You stated the light will not come on with aftermarket exhaust equipment. Will it still store the faults in the fault code memory?
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      03-29-2012, 10:21 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
+1

Roman - just curious. You stated the light will not come on with aftermarket exhaust equipment. Will it still store the faults in the fault code memory?
Doesn't matter as the above statement still holds true.
Again, highly unlikely for anyone to have to worry about all of this in the first place, just less likely with one approach.

Think of it like robbing a bank, only one group uses real guns, and another uses rubber guns. Same penalties.
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      03-29-2012, 10:25 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggy_M View Post
Doesn't matter as the above statement still holds true.
Again, highly unlikely for anyone to have to worry about all of this in the first place, just less likely with one approach.

Think of it like robbing a bank, only one group uses real guns, and another uses rubber guns. Same penalties.
I disagree.

If it prevents the fault from being stored, it is most definitely tampering. It's 100% illegal, no doubt about it.

If it still stores the codes, the only difference would be the driver is not notified, but all of the OBD watchdogs are still on alert.

Two completely different things.

The real question is if the post cat o2 sensors are enabled, will this cause long term fuel trim issues because the car is making corrections for what it thinks might be aging cats?
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      03-29-2012, 10:33 PM   #53
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I can see why you would think that, why tuners would think, and why most people would think that..
BUT, your dealing with 1, lawyers and lawmakers that word things precisely so as to be a catch-all, and 2 California.
So you have wording that is open to interpretation, backed by a state willing to enforce and actually over enforce such things.

The system was intentionally altered from intended operation. Subject Knowingly and willingly disabled the mandatory notification system for properly alerting the operator of increased emissions; in violation of California blah blah

Ps, I'm so happy I don't live in California

Last edited by Serpico; 03-29-2012 at 10:42 PM.
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      03-29-2012, 10:59 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggy_M View Post
I can see why you would think that, why tuners would think, and why most people would think that..
BUT, your dealing with 1, lawyers and lawmakers that word things precisely so as to be a catch-all, and 2 California.
So you have wording that is open to interpretation, backed by a state willing to enforce and actually over enforce such things.

The system was intentionally altered from intended operation. Subject Knowingly and willingly disabled the mandatory notification system for properly alerting the operator of increased emissions; in violation of California blah blah

Ps, I'm so happy I don't live in California
I appreciate the reply.

California is definitely one of those states..

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      03-29-2012, 11:19 PM   #55
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No trouble
Like I said very unlikely scenario for a customer to be in that position in the first place.
To ME, if I were to be worried about such things, which again, i dont think anyone should, I would opt for one more safety barrier of readiness. It would "almost" guarantee they don't dig deeper- driver provocation not withstanding
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      03-30-2012, 04:39 AM   #56
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These threads always just end up being a free for all smack down..
Yep, these threads are very predictable! Time to go grab some
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      03-30-2012, 05:52 AM   #57
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I recall exchanging several PM's with you in November. If I missed one im very sorry but you can email or call me anytime.
Thanks Brotha -
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      03-30-2012, 10:56 AM   #58
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What you see below is screen shot from my Apple Computer running a map editing software called WinOLS.

This is what we use to edit all of your maps and many tuners will use this software.

This is probably the first ever time anyone has put a screen shot like this up because mostly it gives away the map locations and their sizes. I have purposefully hidden the addresses, size and order of the maps.

The maps, from our evolve supercharger project version SW 231E, we need to concentrate on today's lesson are the ones highlighted yellow. These are not all of the maps relating to post CAT function but only some (I cannot fit them all on my screen shot while keeping everything in alphabetical order).



(Sorry if the image is a bit big but I wanted to make it very clear).



The code that is thrown as many of you already know for CAT Efficiency to due to CAT deletion is 2789 and 278A.

On the right hand side of the map descriptions you can see the actual location of that map at addresses 0x7170CF and 0x71726F. The individual maps are 13 bytes long each in 16bit format.

To delete the CEL ONLY for 278A and 2789 you zero out those 2 maps.

So what does this achieve? It ONLY turns off the CEL for CAT efficiency. Everything carries on working as it should.

The rest of the highlighted maps are functions which all relate to CAT efficiency in different ways. You can see the descriptions clearly and they are quite self explanatory. With these functions, depending on what you change and what value you change it to, you will still not have a CEL for CAT efficiency but you may switch off the post 02 sensor function capability altogether.

In other words there are various ways to turn off the CEL light.

Some methods will keep the readiness monitors on and others will turn them off.


I hope this little glimpse into an engineer calibrators screen will give you some idea of how things are done.

As a side subject, the above also shows people that we actually do all of the calibrations here and the majority of the ECU and it's functions are covered.
Some of the map descriptions shown are very interesting for some of you I am sure... just be aware, we don't change all of them!
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      03-30-2012, 12:46 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
No.

They do affect long term fuel trim.
Just asking because I don't know the answer...

Since the secondary O2 sensors affect fuel trim, what are the negative side effects (if any) of running catless, HFC, or test pipes vs. running stock cats? Will the car eventually run lean?
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      03-30-2012, 02:21 PM   #60
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Here it is scaled properly... There are two fault code tables, one on the injection side of the ECU and one on the ignition side of the ECU.


I have some things to say but I am going to button my lip right now until I do some more investigating... But I suspect something is not right with some previous statements made earlier in this thread (p1 specifically)..

Roman, can you please answer my previous question about whether the fault is STORED when you have the cats not on the car?

As Sal said, there are many ways to skin this cat. There are many settings in the file pertaining to oxygen sensors - both pre cat and post cat.

I want to make sure other tuners are being honest in whey they 'claim'...
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 03-30-2012 at 02:30 PM.
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      03-30-2012, 02:30 PM   #61
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haha.... scaling!



You mean the start address is different and you are looking at it with 13 columns and not 20 like I do!

Nice to see you have the checksum module .... does this mean we can expect to see you entering the tuning market some time soon? Best of luck if you are!
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      03-30-2012, 02:40 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
haha.... scaling!



You mean the start address is different and you are looking at it with 13 columns and not 20 like I do!

Nice to see you have the checksum module .... does this mean we can expect to see you entering the tuning market some time soon? Best of luck if you are!
Checksum module is just an extra as the cable will correct the checksum as you know

It was good talking to your earlier my friend..

I have been doing quite a few tunes lately with positive results, but am still behind on emails etc... I have never been so busy in my life, I wish there was more time in the day.

But you and I will get to the bottom of what we discussed earlier.
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      03-30-2012, 02:57 PM   #63
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Good talking to you also.

We will indeed get to the bottom of the magic behind how the DME is really the all seeing eye!
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      03-30-2012, 04:09 PM   #64
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Our software does not throw a CEL or store a code for increased emissions as it has had the error function for cat efficiency removed from the system. The 02 sensors function and monitoring remain as does the rest of the factory diagnostic system. The readiness monitors will show not ready as intended because the software is not designed to pass federal emissions standards. It is designed to be used for off road use only.
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      03-30-2012, 09:03 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Our software does not throw a CEL or store a code for increased emissions as it has had the error function for cat efficiency removed from the system. The 02 sensors function and monitoring remain as does the rest of the factory diagnostic system. The readiness monitors will show not ready as intended because the software is not designed to pass federal emissions standards. It is designed to be used for off road use only.
You know what I'd like? Is a tuner explaining how the fuck BMW sees these flash loaded tunes in the shadow memory once everything is flashed back. I feel like if ANY tuner could guarantee that a tune would not be detected by BMW themselves then they would sell tunes left and right.
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      03-30-2012, 09:09 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Our software does not throw a CEL or store a code for increased emissions as it has had the error function for cat efficiency removed from the system. The 02 sensors function and monitoring remain as does the rest of the factory diagnostic system. The readiness monitors will show not ready as intended because the software is not designed to pass federal emissions standards. It is designed to be used for off road use only.
Removing the fault code from the fault code table (thus preventing the car from throwing this code) is 100% undoubtedly tampering with federal emissions standards. You are literally removing a fault from the DME which is supposed to be there, rather than telling the car to ignore the input from the rear oxygen sensors. This is far and above turning off the rear o2 sensor byte. This means the rear oxygen sensors stay on and have a potential impact on long term fuel trims due to internal DME functions which monitor catalyst aging.

I am going to be testing readiness with Sal over the next few days and we will have a more definitive answer. My car with Akra and one of my customers cars with Turner test pipes will be the test vehicles for me. He will have cars to test there in the UK on this matter.

Something is not adding up, and both Sal and I recgonize this.
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