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      03-28-2012, 03:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
That's not what I'm going for, I'm thinking more about what happens after I've been caught. What am I going to be charged with. I recognize that if the cats are removed, they will absolutely know one way or another.

If the rear sensors are for nothing more than monitoring cat efficiency, this is all a moot point. Because that's the ONLY reason I am interested in keeping them operating; if they serve another purpose. I'm not trying to trick ANYONE.
Tampering with emissions equipment is serious business in CA.

Rear O2s only monitor secondary cats in compliance with OBDII requirements, they have no effect on tuning and/or performance.
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      03-28-2012, 03:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
There is post floating around from Lemans_blue_M (not sure on exact syntax of username) indicating that the rear o2's have a tiny ability to adjust mixture, while the fronts do 99%. I believe he was some sort of insider, but I don't know much more about it. I think he left after a dispute with the sites operators.


Also - to people arguing semantics over tricking the readiness - removing or tampering with your cats is also against federal law (assuming they are working properly)...So as soon as you took off your stock cats, you already broke the law. Just so we are clear : )
Thank you. The post(s) I read were written by another author but described a similar purpose for the rear O2s.
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      03-28-2012, 03:37 PM   #25
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      03-28-2012, 03:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
I read that on here written by a member I consider/ed knowledgeable.



To be honest, I don't care what the tuner does with regards to themselves. What I care about is how it effects me. That's where I am looking for some guidance without a smart ass tone. Thanks.
Thanks for the respect Sir !
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      03-28-2012, 06:37 PM   #27
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A tune is last on my list as its the least bang for your buck and the Mrs is already not liking the wheel and suspension I have planned, BUT, coming from an e46 M, I had the Evolve, and can't speak highly enough about them. When the time comes, I'm going with evolve.

But for now, im currently running a BMS dp fix that just keeps the Cel away with great success so far.Worth looking into I guess. But if your hard set on a tune, Evolve is a guaranteed winner
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      03-28-2012, 08:37 PM   #28
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I'm gonna sound like a total idiot here...but humor me.

I'm looking to get the Turner Test Pipes for my car...would the evolve tune actually preserve OBD readiness and allow me to pass emissions testing??
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      03-28-2012, 08:49 PM   #29
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Since you are in Los Angeles, I would hit up OE Tuning and talk to Jeremy. He is really knowledgable and everything about tuning. From there you can access what is the pros and cons about things.

If i was in Arizona, I go to ESS, but in Cali and especially you are close to where OE Tuning is , I would go there. There has been many blogs about his great work and also with his experience in the Mercedes world. Not that mercedes matters here but it does say something about him.
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      03-29-2012, 12:07 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by werly View Post
While I am still deciding whether to get engine tune or not, my amateur research shows that Evolve receives really good review on the forum.

A friend of mine told me ESS also provides tune but I did not see any vendor carry them (only the SC kit)

I also heard about GIAC & Eurocharge (pardon if the names are incorrect)

I would like to hear about reviews of any tune you have or encountered.

Thanks
Check out the Dinan Tune, great company, tons of R&D
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      03-29-2012, 12:38 PM   #31
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By altering the rear 02, in any fashion, be it modifying the signal, or COMPLETELY DISABLING it is against CA law, so from a purely legal standpoint, both would carry the same penalty if caught. So to argue which is better on those merits alone is futile.
I think what you are ultimately looking for is which option mitigates your risk.
By having readiness you are less likely to be caught, greatly reducing your chances of having unwanted legal issues.
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      03-29-2012, 04:28 PM   #32
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Evolve's code reading/clearing ability closed the deal for me - that and they continue to come out with improvements to pass onto their customers....and they answer PM's, Roman
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      03-29-2012, 04:31 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreeKon View Post
I'm gonna sound like a total idiot here...but humor me.

I'm looking to get the Turner Test Pipes for my car...would the evolve tune actually preserve OBD readiness and allow me to pass emissions testing??
Missing cats will fail a sniffer test.
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      03-29-2012, 05:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Rear O2s only monitor secondary cats in compliance with OBDII requirements, they have no effect on tuning and/or performance.
Untrue.
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      03-29-2012, 05:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggy_M View Post
By altering the rear 02, in any fashion, be it modifying the signal, or COMPLETELY DISABLING it is against CA law, so from a purely legal standpoint, both would carry the same penalty if caught. So to argue which is better on those merits alone is futile.
I think what you are ultimately looking for is which option mitigates your risk.
By having readiness you are less likely to be caught, greatly reducing your chances of having unwanted legal issues.
The only reason one would tamper with OBD readiness is to illegally pass emissions. We will not expose our business or customers to the consequences of this type of activity. I cannot speak for others but we do not alter or disable the rear 02 sensors with our off road catless software. We simply disable the CEL from coming on in the dash due to increased emissions. The CEL will still function from any other issue as designed.

State laws will vary on what can and cannot be used on public roads and so will the monitoring of it but tampering with OBD readiness in an attempt to illegally pass emissions with a catless system is a federal offense in every state. If you think a trained inspection agent cannot smell a catless exhaust system you need to think again. If you want to be street legal and pass emissions you need to have catalytic converters in your vehicle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie View Post
Evolve's code reading/clearing ability closed the deal for me - that and they continue to come out with improvements to pass onto their customers....and they answer PM's, Roman
Our E-flash remote tuning interface reads and clears codes. It also works with our supercharger systems and will soon be able to program our DCT software

I recall exchanging several PM's with you in November. If I missed one im very sorry but you can email or call me anytime.
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      03-29-2012, 06:18 PM   #36
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Me too, VERY happy!
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Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
I use Evolve.
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      03-29-2012, 06:50 PM   #37
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Quote:
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Untrue.
Was waiting for someone to point that out. And thats from someone selling tunes lol
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      03-29-2012, 07:56 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom @ eas View Post
Missing cats will fail a sniffer test.
I heard from someone the other day that California is moving to just an OBD readiness test and is dumping the tailpipe test. I do not know if this is true and haven't verified the authenticity of this statement, but if true it shows the faith that the powers that be have in OBD readiness testing as an accurate measure of emissions.

To my understanding the rear o2 sensors do not perform any 'direct' mixture adjustment whatsoever. The purpose of them is to check the efficiency of the cat, and any fuel mixture changes are handled by pre-cat oxygen sensors. I am going to look at my factory documentation in the next couple days and post more information on the subject. However, there are INDIRECT reasons why post cat o2 sensors may affect fuel trims. (see my post below)

And as far as the tune, since you are local, you should call me. The benefits of my tuning are equal to the other companies offering performance software on this site. Check engine light functionality is always retained, any tuner that disables it completely you should stay far away from!
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 03-29-2012 at 08:18 PM.
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      03-29-2012, 08:09 PM   #39
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Per Internal Factory Documentation:

Catalyst monitoring is based on the monitoring of the oxygen storage capability by comparing the signals of the O2 sensor upstream and downstream the catalyst.

The engine control results in regular lambda oscillations of the exhaust gas. These oscillations are damped by the storage activity of the catalyst. The amplitude of the remaining lambda oscillations downstream the catalyst indicates the oxygen storage capability.

If all monitoring conditions are fulfilled, then a special defined A/F-modulation will be done. The relation of the deviations between the current downstream-sensor-signal to the average value of the downstream-sensor-signal is a criteria for catalyst condition. The catalyst system is considered malfunctioning, if after a specified number of monitoring cycles the average of the ratios exceeds a threshold. The corresponding fault code is stored

To cover aging effects in the emission related exhaust system, for parts like catalysts as well as pre- and post oxygen sensors, a fuel trim strategy is used. As a part of the fuel trim the post oxygen sensor signal is taken into account.

For shifting the post oxygen sensor signal on a certain voltage level, the closed loop controller is used. The expected rear oxygen sensor signal is compared to the current signal. As long as the expected value is not reached, the closed loop controller is shifting the system by a certain amount of proportional or integral share. The outcome is a corrected lambda value (fuel trim value is added to the base fuel calculation).

In case it is not possible to shift the system on the expected level, the fuel trim diagnostic will cover validation of the proportional/ integral value of the fuel trim.

The fuel trim data will be compared with an application threshold. As soon as the threshold is exceeded a malfunction code will be set for the specific criteria.

Note that before a malfunction for trim control is set, a validation of front and post oxygen sensor is performed through introducing a rich/ lean shift.

The plausibility/ rationality check of the post – catalyst oxygen sensor covers four diagnostic strategies:
-Diagnostic during fuel cut off, to verify if the signal is below a certain threshold while in fuel cut off (P013E/ P014A) -Diagnostic during fuel cut off, validation of the transition time (P013A/ P013C)
-Diagnostic during re-injection after fuel cut off, validation of the signal gradient (P013B/ P013D)
-Diagnostic during wide open throttle, to verify if the signal climbs above a certain threshold in WOT (P0136/ P0156)

Active Test
Futhermore, an active test is performed which is the response on a fuel trim malfunction.
The monitor will only be enabled if a fuel correction fault has been detected and a malfunction code has been stored, i.e., P2096/ P2098 or P2097/ P2099.

If a fuel correction malfunction exists, this diagnosis will be enabled to determine if the root cause of the malfunction is due to a stuck signal of the Upstream O2 sensor or a system malfunction, i.e. vacuum leak, injector, etc… If it has been determined that the O2 signal was the root cause of the fuel correction fault, the appropriate DTC will be stored along with the fuel correction DTC.
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 03-29-2012 at 08:19 PM.
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      03-29-2012, 08:49 PM   #40
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Secondary 02 sensors have no function when it comes to A/F calibration. They are used as a secondary check of the primary sensors and catalytic converters.
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      03-29-2012, 09:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Per Internal Factory Documentation:

Catalyst monitoring is based on the monitoring of the oxygen storage capability by comparing the signals of the O2 sensor upstream and downstream the catalyst.

The engine control results in regular lambda oscillations of the exhaust gas. These oscillations are damped by the storage activity of the catalyst. The amplitude of the remaining lambda oscillations downstream the catalyst indicates the oxygen storage capability.

If all monitoring conditions are fulfilled, then a special defined A/F-modulation will be done. The relation of the deviations between the current downstream-sensor-signal to the average value of the downstream-sensor-signal is a criteria for catalyst condition. The catalyst system is considered malfunctioning, if after a specified number of monitoring cycles the average of the ratios exceeds a threshold. The corresponding fault code is stored

To cover aging effects in the emission related exhaust system, for parts like catalysts as well as pre- and post oxygen sensors, a fuel trim strategy is used. As a part of the fuel trim the post oxygen sensor signal is taken into account.

For shifting the post oxygen sensor signal on a certain voltage level, the closed loop controller is used. The expected rear oxygen sensor signal is compared to the current signal. As long as the expected value is not reached, the closed loop controller is shifting the system by a certain amount of proportional or integral share. The outcome is a corrected lambda value (fuel trim value is added to the base fuel calculation).

In case it is not possible to shift the system on the expected level, the fuel trim diagnostic will cover validation of the proportional/ integral value of the fuel trim.

The fuel trim data will be compared with an application threshold. As soon as the threshold is exceeded a malfunction code will be set for the specific criteria.

Note that before a malfunction for trim control is set, a validation of front and post oxygen sensor is performed through introducing a rich/ lean shift.

The plausibility/ rationality check of the post – catalyst oxygen sensor covers four diagnostic strategies:
-Diagnostic during fuel cut off, to verify if the signal is below a certain threshold while in fuel cut off (P013E/ P014A) -Diagnostic during fuel cut off, validation of the transition time (P013A/ P013C)
-Diagnostic during re-injection after fuel cut off, validation of the signal gradient (P013B/ P013D)
-Diagnostic during wide open throttle, to verify if the signal climbs above a certain threshold in WOT (P0136/ P0156)

Active Test
Futhermore, an active test is performed which is the response on a fuel trim malfunction.
The monitor will only be enabled if a fuel correction fault has been detected and a malfunction code has been stored, i.e., P2096/ P2098 or P2097/ P2099.

If a fuel correction malfunction exists, this diagnosis will be enabled to determine if the root cause of the malfunction is due to a stuck signal of the Upstream O2 sensor or a system malfunction, i.e. vacuum leak, injector, etc… If it has been determined that the O2 signal was the root cause of the fuel correction fault, the appropriate DTC will be stored along with the fuel correction DTC.
Thanks for confirming Mike! I've seen a couple people talk about this, but it's nice to get concrete data on it.
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      03-29-2012, 09:04 PM   #42
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Popcorn time.

Someone grab me a soda while you are up?

Last edited by Singletrack; 04-02-2012 at 11:47 AM.
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      03-29-2012, 09:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
I heard from someone the other day that California is moving to just an OBD readiness test and is dumping the tailpipe test. I do not know if this is true and haven't verified the authenticity of this statement, but if true it shows the faith that the powers that be have in OBD readiness testing as an accurate measure of emissions.
Mike,

this is true:

http://www.smogtips.com/new-smog-law-AB-2289.cfm
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      03-29-2012, 09:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Secondary 02 sensors have no function when it comes to A/F calibration. They are used as a secondary check of the primary sensors and catalytic converters.
No.

They do affect long term fuel trim.
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