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      03-27-2012, 09:46 PM   #1
werly
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Engine tunes recommendation?

While I am still deciding whether to get engine tune or not, my amateur research shows that Evolve receives really good review on the forum.

A friend of mine told me ESS also provides tune but I did not see any vendor carry them (only the SC kit)

I also heard about GIAC & Eurocharge (pardon if the names are incorrect)

I would like to hear about reviews of any tune you have or encountered.

Thanks
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      03-27-2012, 10:17 PM   #2
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Guys on here are just gonna tell you to search man lol. My buddy and I had our cars tuned at Gintani and I love mine and I know he does as well. The guys over there are awesome to deal with but to be fair I've only heard good things about most of the other tunes out there as well. My two cents would be just to consider whether you would prefer being able to drive down to a shop and actually speak to someone in person or have a cable mailed to you and then if there are any problems having to deal with emails and waiting.
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      03-27-2012, 10:52 PM   #3
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With the Evolve tune, the rear O2 sensors will pass readiness which I assume means they are operational a greater range to prevent a CEL. Since minor adjustments to the mixture are made based on the rear sensors, this feature is enough to seal the deal for me. No other tune has this capability as far as I know. From what i can tell, all others shut off the rear sensors to prevent a CEL which causes you to fail inspection and lose the capability I described above.
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      03-27-2012, 11:24 PM   #4
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The one that eliminates smell from being catless..

Sorry OP..couldnt resist.
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      03-27-2012, 11:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1
The one that eliminates smell from being catless..

Sorry OP..couldnt resist.
Lol
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      03-28-2012, 12:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
With the Evolve tune, the rear O2 sensors will pass readiness which I assume means they are operational a greater range to prevent a CEL. Since minor adjustments to the mixture are made based on the rear sensors, this feature is enough to seal the deal for me. No other tune has this capability as far as I know. From what i can tell, all others shut off the rear sensors to prevent a CEL which causes you to fail inspection and lose the capability I described above.
Designing a tune to disable the increased emissions warning thrown by a catless exhaust systems while having OBD readiness active is easy to do. We have had the ability to do this for many years on many different platforms. The problem is that tampering with the state OBD readiness system in an attempt to cheat the system is against federal law. The system is in place for a reason. Most emissions testing stations can detect this if checked. A catless exhaust is easy to spot simply by smell alone as most know. If you are caught tampering with the OBD readiness system by a state inspection station you face a fine of up to $250,000 per incident. We choose not to expose ourselves or our customers to this. If a customer decides to operate their vehicle in this manner they need to be aware of the risks involved. There is a reason our company and many other tuners have stayed far away from this practice over the years and have declined to do it when asked.

Our off road catless tune is designed to not throw a CEL for catless exhaust systems. We do this so that customers who run catless systems can and will have a working CEL if there is a real problem with the car instead of having it always on. This is very helpful for cars that are being run hard for track use. Although our system deactivates the readiness monitors when the vehicle is catless it will automatically activate the readiness system if you re-install the catalytic converters. This design allows the customer to be emissions OBD compliant if they re-install the necessary hardware to do so.
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      03-28-2012, 01:15 AM   #7
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There is also Vishnu PNP tune that also allows you to run meth safely with GREAT power gain. I made 400whp on just proceed, meth and magnaflow exhaust.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...hlight=proceed

I also had the Gintani tune for a year. Good guys over there.
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      03-28-2012, 03:30 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
The one that eliminates smell from being catless..

Sorry OP..couldnt resist.
not to my knowledge, and hey I was just curious that someone said it actually helps and how he/she can back that up
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      03-28-2012, 06:12 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Designing a tune to disable the increased emissions warning thrown by a catless exhaust systems while having OBD readiness active is easy to do. We have had the ability to do this for many years on many different platforms. The problem is that tampering with the state OBD readiness system in an attempt to cheat the system is against federal law. The system is in place for a reason. Most emissions testing stations can detect this if checked. A catless exhaust is easy to spot simply by smell alone as most know. If you are caught tampering with the OBD readiness system by a state inspection station you face a fine of up to $250,000 per incident. We choose not to expose ourselves or our customers to this. If a customer decides to operate their vehicle in this manner they need to be aware of the risks involved. There is a reason our company and many other tuners have stayed far away from this practice over the years and have declined to do it when asked.

Our off road catless tune is designed to not throw a CEL for catless exhaust systems. We do this so that customers who run catless systems can and will have a working CEL if there is a real problem with the car instead of having it always on. This is very helpful for cars that are being run hard for track use. Although our system deactivates the readiness monitors when the vehicle is catless it will automatically activate the readiness system if you re-install the catalytic converters. This design allows the customer to be emissions OBD compliant if they re-install the necessary hardware to do so.

THIS !
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      03-28-2012, 08:04 AM   #10
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      03-28-2012, 12:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Designing a tune to disable the increased emissions warning thrown by a catless exhaust systems while having OBD readiness active is easy to do. We have had the ability to do this for many years on many different platforms. The problem is that tampering with the state OBD readiness system in an attempt to cheat the system is against federal law. The system is in place for a reason. Most emissions testing stations can detect this if checked. A catless exhaust is easy to spot simply by smell alone as most know. If you are caught tampering with the OBD readiness system by a state inspection station you face a fine of up to $250,000 per incident. We choose not to expose ourselves or our customers to this. If a customer decides to operate their vehicle in this manner they need to be aware of the risks involved. There is a reason our company and many other tuners have stayed far away from this practice over the years and have declined to do it when asked.

Our off road catless tune is designed to not throw a CEL for catless exhaust systems. We do this so that customers who run catless systems can and will have a working CEL if there is a real problem with the car instead of having it always on. This is very helpful for cars that are being run hard for track use. Although our system deactivates the readiness monitors when the vehicle is catless it will automatically activate the readiness system if you re-install the catalytic converters. This design allows the customer to be emissions OBD compliant if they re-install the necessary hardware to do so.
So the car is not able to make mixture adjustments via the rear O2 sensors with your catless tune, correct? Because the sensors are shut off?

So it's more illegal to run with the sensors on with an increased range than off?
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      03-28-2012, 12:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
So the car is not able to make mixture adjustments via the rear O2 sensors with your catless tune, correct? Because the sensors are shut off?

So it's more illegal to run with the sensors on with an increased range than off?


the issue is that they will appear not ready and will fail any emissions inspection ASAP.. In my state there are no inpsections for emission or safety. We do what we want
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      03-28-2012, 12:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
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the issue is that they will appear not ready and will fail any emissions inspection ASAP.. In my state there are no inpsections for emission or safety. We do what we want
I don't care about failing. I will be putting my stock x-pipe back on and flashing back to stock for my emissions tests. I won't take any chances there.

What I want to know is if it is "more illegal" to run with the sensors operating with a modified range (no CEL, functionality retained) than to shut them off in case I get busted by 5-0 sometime between tests (CA has smog check points).

The reason that I ask is that I want to retain functionality of the rear O2 sensors if at all possible because the car uses them for more than just monitoring cat efficiency from what I understand.
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      03-28-2012, 01:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by werly View Post
While I am still deciding whether to get engine tune or not, my amateur research shows that Evolve receives really good review on the forum.

A friend of mine told me ESS also provides tune but I did not see any vendor carry them (only the SC kit)

I also heard about GIAC & Eurocharge (pardon if the names are incorrect)

I would like to hear about reviews of any tune you have or encountered.

Thanks
We've had great success with the Evolve tunes. Here's a recent dyno of a N/A M3 pushing +400whp:



If you're serious about power, this is the tune (accompanied by proper matching of upgrades) to have.
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      03-28-2012, 01:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
I don't care about failing. I will be putting my stock x-pipe back on and flashing back to stock for my emissions tests. I won't take any chances there.

What I want to know is if it is "more illegal" to run with the sensors operating with a modified range (no CEL, functionality retained) than to shut them off in case I get busted by 5-0 sometime between tests (CA has smog check points).

The reason that I ask is that I want to retain functionality of the rear O2 sensors if at all possible because the car uses them for more than just monitoring cat efficiency from what I understand.
There is no federal law that limits your ability to keep a CEL light from coming on due to increased emissions with an off road system. Doing so triggers the readiness monitors to show not ready which is what the system is designed to do so that emissions inspection stations know you have modified your exhaust system when they scan the OBD system. The only time you are breaking the law is when you manipulate the OBD system to trick the testing station into thinking you have not modified your exhaust when you actually have.

If you are concerned with being 100% emissions compliant at all times I would suggest keeping catalytic converters in the car.
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      03-28-2012, 02:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
There is no federal law that limits your ability to keep a CEL light from coming on due to increased emissions with an off road system. Doing so triggers the readiness monitors to show not ready which is what the system is designed to do so that emissions inspection stations know you have modified your exhaust system when they scan the OBD system. The only time you are breaking the law is when you manipulate the OBD system to trick the testing station into thinking you have not modified your exhaust when you actually have.

If you are concerned with being 100% emissions compliant at all times I would suggest keeping catalytic converters in the car.
I'm concerned about having 100% functionality of the rear O2 sensors with the least legal risk possible.

I'm not looking to trick anyone. My car will be 100% emissions compliant when it's tested. It's highway patrol and emissions checkpoint traps that worry me. I am attempting to determine which provides less legal risk in such a scenario. Is leaving the rear sensors on with an increased range going to increase my legal risk in such a scenario above and beyond simply shutting them off completely?
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      03-28-2012, 02:40 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
I'm concerned about having 100% functionality of the rear O2 sensors with the least legal risk possible.

I'm not looking to trick anyone. My car will be 100% emissions compliant when it's tested. It's highway patrol and emissions checkpoint traps that worry me. I am attempting to determine which provides less legal risk in such a scenario. Is leaving the rear sensors on with an increased range going to increase my legal risk in such a scenario above and beyond simply shutting them off completely?
Readiness emulation will not give you the edge on passing infrared beams/traps.

This option is not recommended, and irrelevant if you are planning on swapping back to your OEM X-pipe come test time.
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      03-28-2012, 02:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO View Post
With the Evolve tune, the rear O2 sensors will pass readiness which I assume means they are operational a greater range to prevent a CEL. Since minor adjustments to the mixture are made based on the rear sensors, this feature is enough to seal the deal for me. No other tune has this capability as far as I know. From what i can tell, all others shut off the rear sensors to prevent a CEL which causes you to fail inspection and lose the capability I described above.
Please show me the documentation that the car actually makes mixture adjustments based off of the rear O2 sensors.

As far as I am aware, the rear O2 sensors monitor catalyst efficiency and mixture adjustment is done with the front O2 sensors, if you have documentation that shows the MSS60 DME uses the rear O2 sensors for mixture adjustment I would like to see it.

The Advent of the rear or post cat O2 sensor was as a result of emissions regulations requiring that manufactures showed that the catalyst were operating in a specific efficiency range. Once out of that efficiency range the rear O2 sensors tell the DME or ECU to set a MIL/CEL light stating the vehicle is operating at increased emissions levels. In this case the increased emissions are due to catalyst efficiency being below threshold.

To the OP, spend some time on here searching and I am sure you will be able to get a good idea of who you want to use for a tune. Reading the many, many reviews on here will give you more information than just asking what tune people think you should buy.
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      03-28-2012, 03:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3PO
With the Evolve tune, the rear O2 sensors will pass readiness which I assume means they are operational a greater range to prevent a CEL. Since minor adjustments to the mixture are made based on the rear sensors, this feature is enough to seal the deal for me. No other tune has this capability as far as I know. From what i can tell, all others shut off the rear sensors to prevent a CEL which causes you to fail inspection and lose the capability I described above.
Who do you think is smarter: Tuners who figured this out a long time ago and realized they could lose their businesses and go to jail if they did it, or the tuners who figured it out and decided to commit a federal felony so they could differentiate themselves from the competitors?

BTW, it's usually not a good idea to admit on a public car forum that you're committing a federal felony by knowingly installing something on your car that was designed to trick the federal smog laws. Just saying.
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      03-28-2012, 03:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Please show me the documentation that the car actually makes mixture adjustments based off of the rear O2 sensors.

As far as I am aware, the rear O2 sensors monitor catalyst efficiency and mixture adjustment is done with the front O2 sensors, if you have documentation that shows the MSS60 DME uses the rear O2 sensors for mixture adjustment I would like to see it.

The Advent of the rear or post cat O2 sensor was as a result of emissions regulations requiring that manufactures showed that the catalyst were operating in a specific efficiency range. Once out of that efficiency range the rear O2 sensors tell the DME or ECU to set a MIL/CEL light stating the vehicle is operating at increased emissions levels. In this case the increased emissions are due to catalyst efficiency being below threshold.

To the OP, spend some time on here searching and I am sure you will be able to get a good idea of who you want to use for a tune. Reading the many, many reviews on here will give you more information than just asking what tune people think you should buy.
I read that on here written by a member I consider/ed knowledgeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post
Who do you think is smarter: Tuners who figured this out a long time ago and realized they could lose their businesses and go to jail if they did it, or the tuners who figured it out and decided to commit a federal felony so they could differentiate themselves from the competitors?

BTW, it's usually not a good idea to admit on a public car forum that you're committing a federal felony by knowingly installing something on your car that was designed to trick the federal smog laws. Just saying.
To be honest, I don't care what the tuner does with regards to themselves. What I care about is how it effects me. That's where I am looking for some guidance without a smart ass tone. Thanks.
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      03-28-2012, 03:21 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Please show me the documentation that the car actually makes mixture adjustments based off of the rear O2 sensors.

As far as I am aware, the rear O2 sensors monitor catalyst efficiency and mixture adjustment is done with the front O2 sensors, if you have documentation that shows the MSS60 DME uses the rear O2 sensors for mixture adjustment I would like to see it.

The Advent of the rear or post cat O2 sensor was as a result of emissions regulations requiring that manufactures showed that the catalyst were operating in a specific efficiency range. Once out of that efficiency range the rear O2 sensors tell the DME or ECU to set a MIL/CEL light stating the vehicle is operating at increased emissions levels. In this case the increased emissions are due to catalyst efficiency being below threshold.

To the OP, spend some time on here searching and I am sure you will be able to get a good idea of who you want to use for a tune. Reading the many, many reviews on here will give you more information than just asking what tune people think you should buy.
There is post floating around from Lemans_blue_M (not sure on exact syntax of username) indicating that the rear o2's have a tiny ability to adjust mixture, while the fronts do 99%. I believe he was some sort of insider, but I don't know much more about it. I think he left after a dispute with the sites operators.


Also - to people arguing semantics over tricking the readiness - removing or tampering with your cats is also against federal law (assuming they are working properly)...So as soon as you took off your stock cats, you already broke the law. Just so we are clear : )
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      03-28-2012, 03:24 PM   #22
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Readiness emulation will not give you the edge on passing infrared beams/traps.

This option is not recommended, and irrelevant if you are planning on swapping back to your OEM X-pipe come test time.
That's not what I'm going for, I'm thinking more about what happens after I've been caught. What am I going to be charged with. I recognize that if the cats are removed, they will absolutely know one way or another.

If the rear sensors are for nothing more than monitoring cat efficiency, this is all a moot point. Because that's the ONLY reason I am interested in keeping them operating; if they serve another purpose. I'm not trying to trick ANYONE.
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