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      03-08-2012, 02:46 PM   #45
Epacy2
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Really. Nothing you said in your initial post was remotely factual and was conjecture on your part. I stand by my original assessment.
Remotely factual? Wow, you've got deeper problems than we all thought. Shame...
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      03-08-2012, 08:40 PM   #46
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Remotely factual? Wow, you've got deeper problems than we all thought. Shame...
Remotely. Look it up.
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      03-08-2012, 08:45 PM   #47
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The volt has only been on sale in all 50 states for a couple months. Original launch was in CA, MI, and DC. I believe they added Texas, NY, CT, and maybe one or two more later. This might have had an impact on sales.

HOV lane privileges in CA apply to the volt in 2012, so I'm guessing this will help sales. The prius no longer qualifies for HOV stickers in CA.

Last edited by asus389; 03-08-2012 at 09:08 PM.
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      03-08-2012, 09:23 PM   #48
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The volt has only been on sale in all 50 states for a couple months. Original launch was in CA, MI, and DC. I believe they added Texas, NY, CT, and maybe one or two more later. This might have had an impact on sales.

HOV lane privileges in CA apply to the volt in 2012, so I'm guessing this will help sales. The prius no longer qualifies for HOV stickers in CA.
That is a good point about the limited availability. It is also true in Virginia; once a hybrid reaches a certian level of sales, the HOV incentive stops.

And one more thing, the $7,500 tax credit applies to any plug-in hybrid vehicle, just not the Volt.
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      03-08-2012, 11:04 PM   #49
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The Volt is failing because the common man/woman can't afford to buy one. Alternate fuel vehicles WILL happen: A. because the price of gas is going to double; B. because the earth contains a finite amount of oil. Like it or not, our grandkids will likely be driving an electric or hydrogen vehicle... probably half the size of the current beasts we currently drive. Heck, if the Leaf were affordable, there would be one in my garage!
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      03-08-2012, 11:06 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by flyinb501 View Post
AMEN!

Why would you spend $40k on a Volt when you can get a comparable Chevy Cruze at nearly half the price. You will never realize a gas savings on the Volt enough to offset the high price.
Not true. People using this car for commuting to and from work, will be primarily be using electric only. There are owners after 6 months of ownership that are still on the same tank of gas from purchase,.

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If a car needs a $7k tax credit (subsidy) from the government (and still doesn't sell) I would say that is proof the technology is not there yet to make a car like this viable.
This is not the only car that has very large tax credits. Even the BMW diesels had $4,500 eco credits.
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      03-08-2012, 11:11 PM   #51
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The reason that the Prius succeeded is because it costs 25k and in fact gets over 50 MPG on good old normal gas... Diesels have no chance here in the US due to higher diesel cost, pollution regulations and an overall hate for diesel. The Volt hasn't succeeded because it's a plug-in hybrid that costs $40K and comes from a recently failed company... that's that, there is little else to argue about here. You have to offer people a premium technology at a comparable cost with usability as solid as the previous technology... this is why the Prius has succeeded over and over. I predict Volt production to be done within 6 months and this whole thing written off as a loss. GM needs to focus on smaller, low displacement turbo motors for the future and increasing overall vehicle quality... this will save them, the Volt won't.
I will make a little bet. The Volt powertrain is in other GM vehicles 5 years from now. With even more electric range and gas generator range.

GM sold more Volts last month, than BMW sold 1-series, Z4's, 6-series, or X6's.

The fact they sold over a 1,000 units in a month is really good. The car was never made to be a high volume seller like the Cruze, Civic, or Carolla. This technology will take time to advance.

Last edited by M3_WC; 03-09-2012 at 03:08 AM.
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      03-08-2012, 11:17 PM   #52
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I will make a little bet. The Volt powertrain is in other GM vehicles 5 years from now. With even more electric range and gas generator range.
I'm not taking that bet! You are 100% right!
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      03-09-2012, 06:02 AM   #53
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The Volt is failing because the common man/woman can't afford to buy one. Alternate fuel vehicles WILL happen: A. because the price of gas is going to double; B. because the earth contains a finite amount of oil. Like it or not, our grandkids will likely be driving an electric or hydrogen vehicle... probably half the size of the current beasts we currently drive. Heck, if the Leaf were affordable, there would be one in my garage!
Wait a second, you own a 09 Z4 3.0i (with just two seats and about 3.5 cubic feet of trunk space, which is almost double the price of a Leaf. What do mean "if it is affordable". Not flaming here, just askin'.

The problem with the Leaf is it is a second car for most people, and as a primary car how does it fit into city or suburban life? It has a limited range of maybe 100 miles (probably less) between 8-hour charges. What do you do when the power goes out over night while you’re sleeping thinking your leaf is getting its recharge? And if it’s really meant for a city, most city dwellers don't have a vandalism-fee spot to park it and charge it over night anyway.

The Leaf has too many drawbacks to serve as primary transportation.
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      03-10-2012, 11:40 PM   #54
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Toyo sells a lot of Priuses to Rachel Maddow fans who don't watch South Park. Otherwise, not so much.

The math isn't any better for Prius buyers than it is for Volt buyers. Making up the price difference between a $25k Prius at 48mpg and a $17k Hyundai at 40mpg will take you about the same amount of time as a Chevy Volt over a Chevy Cruze, and for the average owner that time will be many years longer than they will likely own the car.
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      03-11-2012, 08:36 AM   #55
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Toyo sells a lot of Priuses to Rachel Maddow fans who don't watch South Park. Otherwise, not so much.

The math isn't any better for Prius buyers than it is for Volt buyers. Making up the price difference between a $25k Prius at 48mpg and a $17k Hyundai at 40mpg will take you about the same amount of time as a Chevy Volt over a Chevy Cruze, and for the average owner that time will be many years longer than they will likely own the car.
I spent a good amount of time yesterday running numbers on buying a Volt and retiring my E90 from daily driving (160 mile round trip commute). There is just no way to payback the Volt's cost difference over a comparable sized vehicle that gets somewhat less fuel mileage and costs $10K to $15K less. I ran the numbers and compared the Volt to an F30 328i, Ford Focus, Ford Fusion Hybrid, and a diesel Jetta. The Volt makes sense against the F30 obviously, and is slightly better than the Fusion Hybrid, but the payback against the Focus and Jetta is in the 6 to 8 year range (for me at least). In my case I'd have to drive the Volt 109,000 miles farther than the Focus and about 80,000 miles farther than the Jetta. That means 300,000 miles on the Volt just to break even. I doubt the battery in the Volt would last 300,000 miles and keep its same charge capacity.

But for a person in a city or close suburban driving situation (I live in a rural area) the Volt can make sense, if you keep it out of gas mode and the only advantage is really reducing tailpipe emissions (but not emissions from an electric plant). The Volt IMO is a better choice than the Leaf as it can run in electric mode most the time, but has no range limitation.
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      03-12-2012, 03:27 AM   #56
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Yes, if you can keep that gas engine off I can see how it could work. Or at least the math gets a lot more complicated.

But it does feel like we're finally headed in the right direction. If we put even HALF of all cars and trucks on the power grid we completely solve the energy crisis and any national security concerns about imported out, and eliminate half the air pollution as icing on the cake. Best part of that plan is, we don't have to change our car-centric lifestyle and move into communes and highrises. We don't even lose performance cars.

And for what it's worth, IMO the secret to this plan is convincing women buyers. Men want power. Women want to get the kids to soccer practice. If you convince women to buy electric cars then the economic battle of our age is over. AND we get to keep our toys. :-)
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      03-12-2012, 01:08 PM   #57
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Not true. People using this car for commuting to and from work, will be primarily be using electric only. There are owners after 6 months of ownership that are still on the same tank of gas from purchase,.
I hope they're putting stabilizer in their gas

I stand by my statement. Sorry, but you're not going to realize a $20k savings in gas in order to justify the Volt. Even the OP did the math and agrees.
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      03-12-2012, 02:28 PM   #58
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I hope they're putting stabilizer in their gas

I stand by my statement. Sorry, but you're not going to realize a $20k savings in gas in order to justify the Volt. Even the OP did the math and agrees.
I think you are talking about me. Yes I did the math, but my commute is not the commute the Volt was designed for. I'd be driving the car 160 miles a day; getting 35 miles on a home charge and driving 45 miles on gas-engine electrical generation to my office, then charging the Volt at my office and driving home on 35 miles of battery charge and 45 miles on gas-engine electric mode. I didn't do the math on the Volt if it was run primarily in electric mode. The Volt gets 94 MPGe, so there are some commutes that make the Volt cost benefical to own; mine is not one of them.

And I do agree with using Stabil in the fuel.
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