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      02-24-2012, 06:12 PM   #1
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Avoid Accidents, Keep the DSC off :)

Not trying to be antagonistic, just sarcastic. I do think that driving nannies numb people to the behaviour of their cars and thus, when they are turned off on a rare occassion, can lead to accidents.

If people drove with DSC off all the time, would they be better in tune with their cars and have fewer accidents?

Food for thought.
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      02-24-2012, 06:17 PM   #2
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      02-24-2012, 06:51 PM   #3
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I agree with the gist of your comment (knowing you're speaking somewhat tongue in cheekishly). Driving with the nanny off will definitely help you develop a better feel for the effects of driver input, but there is a place and time to learn and develop that feel. Determining that time and place requires judgement and sadly, that's where we fail.
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      02-24-2012, 07:06 PM   #4
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Wonder what we did before traction control? Still had 400+HP cars & managed alright. I think the M3 makes people think their a better driver than they actually are. The M3 is listed as one of the cars cops fear most because of this -

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/cars-cops-fear#2
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      02-24-2012, 08:25 PM   #5
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A fair point. Ask yourself: should we eliminate safeties on guns? Why not? Shouldn't you know if you want to shoot or not?
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      02-24-2012, 08:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdemetry View Post
Not trying to be antagonistic, just sarcastic. I do think that driving nannies numb people to the behaviour of their cars and thus, when they are turned off on a rare occassion, can lead to accidents.

If people drove with DSC off all the time, would they be better in tune with their cars and have fewer accidents?

Food for thought.
I suggest this for dessert:

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/6458...ccident+thread

I own a 2003 S2k. It has no traction control and I've never come close to even spinning it. I have hit the ragged edge of the performance envelope under idea circumstances, however.

If it had a DSC I would use it when daily driving, probably only electing to turn it off for track days. The reason is that you don't really need that extra bloody, ragged thread of the vehicle's performance while sharing the roads with other commuters.
Most of these are from years without a traction control system. Unfortunately any performance car can very quickly become unmanageable, even with "daily experience".

The best advice is to always remember the car's limits, your own limits, and when to most definitely not reach either.
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      02-24-2012, 08:55 PM   #7
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Would we even be having these discussions of late 15 yrs ago when DSC was a sci-fi concept?..people are really thinking they will sink and swim by the damn DSC..when it reality 95% of the responsibilty lies with the driver regardless if DSC is involved
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      02-24-2012, 08:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie View Post
Wonder what we did before traction control? Still had 400+HP cars & managed alright. I think the M3 makes people think their a better driver than they actually are. The M3 is listed as one of the cars cops fear most because of this -

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/cars-cops-fear#2
What exactly caused all of those 911s to spontaneously wrap themselves around trees pre-traction control?

I have known a few people to do similar things with 60's Camaros, Mustangs, etc.

It isn't only a matter of overconfidence due to DSC, it is overconfidence in one's abilities or just pure bad driving.
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      02-25-2012, 12:35 AM   #9
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      02-25-2012, 02:16 AM   #10
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      02-25-2012, 08:11 AM   #11
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One of my favorite cars was a 996 series GT3, which has no stability or traction control. I put a lot track and road miles on it without incident. I think the fact is, experienced or well trained drivers will learn any car's handling dynamics, regardless of electronic gadgets. Conversely, those of us ill prepared to drive, will find a way to crash a Prius. IMO, DSC is a useful tool on the street, as it can do things that cannot be done by any driver, which can save you in an emergency situation. Depending on the specific application, it can also by useful on track. But, anyone interested in learning high performance should put in a lot of time without it.
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      02-25-2012, 09:48 AM   #12
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After all the DSC off will kill you threads this last week, it is very refreshing to see the other side of the coin.
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      02-25-2012, 10:23 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
One of my favorite cars was a 996 series GT3, which has no stability or traction control. I put a lot track and road miles on it without incident. I think the fact is, experienced or well trained drivers will learn any car's handling dynamics, regardless of electronic gadgets. Conversely, those of us ill prepared to drive, will find a way to crash a Prius. IMO, DSC is a useful tool on the street, as it can do things that cannot be done by any driver, which can save you in an emergency situation. Depending on the specific application, it can also by useful on track. But, anyone interested in learning high performance should put in a lot of time without it.
This is a good statement of how I feel, as well. That is why I like autocross, to learn car control. IMHO it's better than track time, because it's very easy to get your car past it's limits autocrossing and only hit a cone or 10. On a track, if you over cook a corner you could be hitting a wall at 120MPH. I've been considering autocrossing my car just to get more seat time, in a safe enviroment, at the limit. I just don't drive 10/10ths at the track, but always have when I used to autocrossed for a few seasons.
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      02-25-2012, 10:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdemetry View Post
This is a good statement of how I feel, as well. That is why I like autocross, to learn car control. IMHO it's better than track time, because it's very easy to get your car past it's limits autocrossing and only hit a cone or 10. On a track, if you over cook a corner you could be hitting a wall at 120MPH. I've been considering autocrossing my car just to get more seat time, in a safe enviroment, at the limit. I just don't drive 10/10ths at the track, but always have when I used to autocrossed for a few seasons.

Excellent advice. Car Control Clinics and driving on a skid pad are also valuable learning tools. For those of us who live where it snows an empty parking lot can be a good place to practice skid recovery.

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      02-25-2012, 11:01 AM   #15
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Yesterday, I was at the instructor clinic with PCA/BMWCCA. As part of the training, we had a session with Ross Bentley. Can't tell enough how lucky I was to listen him regarding how to be a better instructor.

Anyways, one of the instructors asked this question: "What should we do if the student is constantly saved by DSC and TC, but he's not aware of it, and thinks he's doing great?". What's suggested was to work on the student's awareness (did you feel the back stepping out but DSC intervened?), take him for a ride to show him/her how the car should feel, and worst case send him to skid pad so he can safely see what happens when there's no DSC.
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      02-25-2012, 12:25 PM   #16
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Is it possible to code out the DSC ?



I met this guy at a run that said he clipped a wire in his fuze box to remove dec (e36).

Crazy dude and police stopped him shortly after this video:

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      02-25-2012, 12:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
A fair point. Ask yourself: should we eliminate safeties on guns? Why not? Shouldn't you know if you want to shoot or not?
When responsibly handling a firearm, you always assume that the safety is off and the gun is loaded and handle accordingly (always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot and never point the gun in the direction of something you do not want to shoot). You never want to rely on a mechanical safeguard to keep you from shooting what you do not want to shoot. When handled correctly, a firearm doesn't need a safety. Furthermore, Glocks have no classical safeties (safe/not safe selector).

I actually think this is a good discussion point... maybe a lot of us do not know how to properly handle an m3, nor do we take the time to learn how to properly handle an m3 in a safe environment and we do not know where the limits are (DSC or no DSC).

Honestly, I think the "keeping the finger off the trigger and keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction" for an M3 is driving responsibly on public roads. By driving responsibly I mean driving within or close to the posted speed limits, proper distance between cars, proper lane changes, no "exhibition of speed" from stop lights/signs. Doing that will keep you from getting anywhere near the limits of this car, and you should have the DSC on in those rare occasions you get close to the limit. When an M3 is handled correctly on a public road you probably would never need the DSC. When you are risking others safety on public roads I really don't think there is any other way to drive.

I actually want to thank you guys for all these threads, it has really made me examine my own driving habits. Am I always driving appropriately and responsibly? To be fair, I do not think that I have been 100% of the time. I think its time for me to start changing that.
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Last edited by doc19; 02-25-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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      02-25-2012, 12:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Mark View Post
Is it possible to code out the DSC ?

I met this guy at a run that said he clipped a wire in his fuze box to remove dec (e36).

Crazy dude and police stopped him shortly after this video:
That dude is 1 CRAZY MotherFu*K#R!!!
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      02-25-2012, 02:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Mark View Post
Is it possible to code out the DSC ?



I met this guy at a run that said he clipped a wire in his fuze box to remove dec (e36).

Crazy dude and police stopped him shortly after this video:
Not alright to almost hit the other car, but I laughed.

I think there are times DSC needs to be turned off to truly learn your car, but I love my mdm for most of the time. An m3 is a modern car with technology, so embrace it, especially off track. Although, I do think it's bad when people use traction control to just go WOT around the street with the yellow light flashing and have no idea what they're doing - it generally leads to something worst happening than them spinning in 1st gear or something. I think it's inevitable for people like this to crash sometimes.

On a side note, my other car is an old gto. It doesn't even have ABS and came from the factory overpowered for the tires because burnouts were "cool." IMO, people seemed to have about the same success rate in those days as they do today in our new Ms when it comes to performance driving. I also know from talking to older hot rodders there was far less congestion/traffic and more open area to learn a raw car that swings it's back out easy and can't stop, especially when it's raining. Forget about snow/ice. Just supports the whole notion that some time on a skidpad with dsc off does wonders!
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      02-27-2012, 08:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doc19 View Post
I actually think this is a good discussion point... maybe a lot of us do not know how to properly handle an m3, nor do we take the time to learn how to properly handle an m3 in a safe environment and we do not know where the limits are (DSC or no DSC).
Right, and that was sort of what I was getting at. A safety on a gun is there to protect both the person using the gun and others around them. I imagine that even a very good marksman (if that's the right word) appreciates that safety. In the same way, even an expert driver probably appreciates DSC.

Quote:
Honestly, I think the "keeping the finger off the trigger and keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction" for an M3 is driving responsibly on public roads. By driving responsibly I mean driving within or close to the posted speed limits, proper distance between cars, proper lane changes, no "exhibition of speed" from stop lights/signs. Doing that will keep you from getting anywhere near the limits of this car, and you should have the DSC on in those rare occasions you get close to the limit. When an M3 is handled correctly on a public road you probably would never need the DSC. When you are risking others safety on public roads I really don't think there is any other way to drive.
It sounds very reasonable.

Also consider this point I haven't seen mentioned (I may have missed it): Even professional drivers get into accidents. Now granted, this will most often be while they are driving on a race course. Furthermore, obviously being on a race course during a competition, with other drivers adding to the hazards makes these accidents much more common, sometimes even unavoidable. Would DSC help avoid some of these accidents or mishaps? Probably, and in fact many race cars do have some form of traction control (if perhaps not full blown stability control). But more importantly, the key here is that while you may be able to control your car just fine when driving alone and in known conditions, once you add other cars, drivers, and hazards into the mix all bets are off.
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      02-27-2012, 08:59 AM   #21
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DSC on or off doesn't change the idiot who's driving it. Poor judgment is the name of the game.
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      02-27-2012, 09:43 AM   #22
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DSC off didn't seem to help this guy:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=654190

And boo to the mods for closing that thread. Can't we have our fun?
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