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      05-06-2012, 10:23 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
I agree with this completely. Running 275 all around doesn't make the rear tail happy at all. All it does is increase front grip, and don't forget at 275, you're still wider than stock (for non-competition package), so you've got lot's of grip.

I also think that if you're considering driving with traction control off, the best time to try it is in the wet. I personally think I learned a lot more about throttle and brake control with traction control off in the wet than at any other point being on the track. In the wet, you're generally running slower than in the dry, so mistakes are less likely to cost you. Because the reaction of the car is 'exaggerated' in the wet, you'll learn a lot about car control, different racing lines and learn how to feel the car more. It's also a lot of fun pushing yourself in the wet.
I fully agree that you can probe the car limits a lower speeds in the wet.

However, an important factor to consider is how grass behaves when it is wet. It becomes like an ice rink. So if you do go off on wet grass, you won't slow down much on it. Kissing a guardrail then becomes much more likely. MDM helps keeping one off the grass .

Last edited by CanAutM3; 05-07-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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      05-06-2012, 10:32 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shizzle View Post
I agree with this completely. Running 275 all around doesn't make the rear tail happy at all. All it does is increase front grip, and don't forget at 275, you're still wider than stock (for non-competition package), so you've got lot's of grip.

I also think that if you're considering driving with traction control off, the best time to try it is in the wet. I personally think I learned a lot more about throttle and brake control with traction control off in the wet than at any other point being on the track. In the wet, you're generally running slower than in the dry, so mistakes are less likely to cost you. Because the reaction of the car is 'exaggerated' in the wet, you'll learn a lot about car control, different racing lines and learn how to feel the car more. It's also a lot of fun pushing yourself in the wet.
+! but even better is ice racing for learning car control like I did in Quebec in the mid 70's on rubber to ice in a Fiat 128 & a Lotus Cortina in studded.To be able to fast properly in the wet or dry,well developed car control skills are paramount.

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      05-06-2012, 11:27 PM   #113
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thats great gearhead. looks fun too.
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      05-07-2012, 12:25 AM   #114
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Metamorphosis

I participated in early part of this thread, arguing w/ the OP. Welp, I think time has come to go DSC off.

As stated earlier in this thread, I've stubbornly stuck to tracking in MDM, even in mostly sunny Southern California. As long as I was making progress (as evidenced by steadily decreasing lap times), I felt that MDM was a safe way to track and is still a blast. But, I've hit & gotten stuck at a plateau a little while ago, and just can't seem to get beyond it.

But, I don't want to just throw money into better equipments to shave lap times. I've gotten to know the local tracks fairly well, and I'd rather improve my driving and learn to attack the tracks progressively better.

Using Buttonwillow and Big Willow tracks as examples, I've gotten to 2:06 at Buttonwillow 5 track days ago and can't get to 2:05. In fact, I did 2:07 during last 2 events there as the temperature/weather is getting very warm. Same at Big Willow - 1:36 4 track days ago and can't get into 1:35, and yesterday (a warm day and R-S3 with not much tread left) managed only 1:38.

While those times are good enough to let you run in Red groups, it got to the point where, yesterday by lunch, it wasn't much fun any more. Of course, lap time is not everything; but, how else do you measure your progress? Anyhow, the weather from this point on is only going to get hotter. So, take a sabbatical from tracking 'til October or November? (It's not a coincidence that my best lap times all came during January & February, and in morning sessions)

But, I can't stop tracking, lulz. After averaging about 2.5 track days per month since I started tracking in this April of last year, I now get a serious case of the jitters if I don't track more than 2 to 3 weeks. So, not track 'til end of the year? LOL, naw.

So, ran the afternoon sessions yesterday at Big Willow w/ DSC off.

As Big Willow is a fairly fast track, and there are many areas where you simply don't want to go off, I took it easy and it felt like I was learning to track-drive all over again.

But, while that is precisely the main reason why I didn't want to deviate from tracking in MDM mode [i.e. after going to 5 local tracks at least half dozen times each, all in MDM mode, having learned the (MDM) lines, (MDM) gear selection at various corners, (MDM) throttlling, etc, the prospect of relearning all that in TC off mode seemed only a month ago an unnecessary prospect/exercise], I think now is the time. I guess, rather than letting people who are in different situations and with different outlooks trying to convince you, I just had to come to a self-realization.

Meanwhile, yesterday, my track buddies who have been tracking from the beginning w/ TC off (primarily due to lack of MDM, or something similar to MDM) are flying around the track, and one even set his personal best time this weekend.

Good for him, and them, but I'm keeping my ego in check and will go slow so that I can eventually go faster. And, start experimenting at various corners of various tracks.

An example: turn 3 at Big Willow requires a major braking, and then the left turn takes you up the hill. In MDM, I used to downshift to 3rd gear (DCT), turn, and start pumping the gas pedal (essentially fighting the MDM computer that was cutting the gas on me due to the steering wheel angle). Welp, I quickly learned that things get dicey if you exit that same corner in 3rd gear with DSC off, as the following video shows. Keep in mind that, a lot of cars go off there, left & right. Yesterday, an E46 M3 spun there and hit the wall on the left side.

Anyhow, I guess this post sort of morphed into a blog. I plan on doing the summer track days to re-learn the various tracks and hope to be besting my personal best lap times by October/November. It's gonna be a blast.

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      05-07-2012, 02:03 AM   #115
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Great thread. I've done 6 track days to date and all within the past year. I always drove with MDM on and off the track. Last month I did my 5th and 6th track day and on that first day I started to notice that I was putting a whole lot of trust in MDM. I was pushing the car pretty hard in the corners knowing MDM would catch any oversteer...and it did flawlessly. When my last session was coming up for that day I decided I would give DSC-off a shot and just take things very slowly. While I was much slower around the course that last session, it was the most fun I've had yet because I knew it was me driving the car. Not only was it more rewarding, but I was getting much smoother knowing that there wasn't a system in place to save me from a spin. Driving with DSC-off made me a better driver.

A few days later I went to another track day at Laguna Seca. This time I had my mind set on sticking with DSC-off for the whole day. I want to become a better driver regardless of what car I drive. No I don't have any dreams of going pro or even competing. I just like challenging myself in anything I do and getting better at something is always rewarding in itself. Anyways, throughout the day I was pushing the car harder and harder and ended up running around 1:50 at laguna most of the day with DSC-off. Now that's not a time to be proud of, but I think it's decent for someone who's pretty new and getting the hang of driving without traction control. The M3 is very forgiving and feels very neutral so I think it's a great car to drive with DSC off and not be too intimidated. You just have to work your speed up slowly.

I know I can potentially shave at least 5 seconds off of my time so I signed up for Skip Barber's advanced car control class so I can get more seat time and confidence driving at the limits of grip. I also recommend reading the book "Going Faster - Mastering the Art of Race Driving". I just finished it and it really opened my eyes up to this awesome hobby.
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      05-07-2012, 04:35 AM   #116
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OC3, I'm glad the training wheels are coming off. I'm sure you'll have a blast and that you have the skills to be a great DSC-free driver. But I recommend to you and to everyone that to protect your investment, buy HPDE insurance if you haven't already.

I'm very glad I did...especially in light of what almost happened at Thunderhill this weekend...

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      05-07-2012, 07:51 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Definitely not. A square set-up makes the car nice and neutral by removing the annoying M3 understeer. This without making it more tail happy than it is .

You still have plenty of traction when powering out of corners .
I guess it depends on driving style, but I know I'm not the first to think 275 square can cause oversteer on E92 M3's. I'm confident 295/275 or possibly even 295/265 would be quicker than 275 square, it's just weighing operating costs and speed. Assuming the traction is rear-limited on a 275 sq setup that is. I'm not trying to start a big debate though, I know there are plenty on here and if you like your 275 square that's all that matters.
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      05-07-2012, 07:54 AM   #118
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looks fun gearhead, I bet it wouldn't take much to get the rear loose on ice. A few friends and I have toyed with the idea of renting a large parking lot normally used for auto-x for a day and wetting it down to practice countersteer without risking our cars.
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      05-07-2012, 08:22 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
An example: turn 3 at Big Willow requires a major braking, and then the left turn takes you up the hill. In MDM, I used to downshift to 3rd gear (DCT), turn, and start pumping the gas pedal (essentially fighting the MDM computer that was cutting the gas on me due to the steering wheel angle). Welp, I quickly learned that things get dicey if you exit that same corner in 3rd gear with DSC off, as the following video shows. Keep in mind that, a lot of cars go off there, left & right. Yesterday, an E46 M3 spun there and hit the wall on the left side.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yyoo View Post
OC3, I'm glad the training wheels are coming off. I'm sure you'll have a blast and that you have the skills to be a great DSC-free driver. But I recommend to you and to everyone that to protect your investment, buy HPDE insurance if you haven't already.

I'm very glad I did...especially in light of what almost happened at Thunderhill this weekend...

Nice catch guys

This is what car control is all about!

Last edited by CanAutM3; 05-07-2012 at 09:37 AM.
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      05-07-2012, 09:13 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
I participated in early part of this thread, arguing w/ the OP. Welp, I think time has come to go DSC off.

As stated earlier in this thread, I've stubbornly stuck to tracking in MDM, even in mostly sunny Southern California. As long as I was making progress (as evidenced by steadily decreasing lap times), I felt that MDM was a safe way to track and is still a blast. But, I've hit & gotten stuck at a plateau a little while ago, and just can't seem to get beyond it.

But, I don't want to just throw money into better equipments to shave lap times. I've gotten to know the local tracks fairly well, and I'd rather improve my driving and learn to attack the tracks progressively better.

Using Buttonwillow and Big Willow tracks as examples, I've gotten to 2:06 at Buttonwillow 5 track days ago and can't get to 2:05. In fact, I did 2:07 during last 2 events there as the temperature/weather is getting very warm. Same at Big Willow - 1:36 4 track days ago and can't get into 1:35, and yesterday (a warm day and R-S3 with not much tread left) managed only 1:38.

While those times are good enough to let you run in Red groups, it got to the point where, yesterday by lunch, it wasn't much fun any more. Of course, lap time is not everything; but, how else do you measure your progress? Anyhow, the weather from this point on is only going to get hotter. So, take a sabbatical from tracking 'til October or November? (It's not a coincidence that my best lap times all came during January & February, and in morning sessions)

But, I can't stop tracking, lulz. After averaging about 2.5 track days per month since I started tracking in this April of last year, I now get a serious case of the jitters if I don't track more than 2 to 3 weeks. So, not track 'til end of the year? LOL, naw.

So, ran the afternoon sessions yesterday at Big Willow w/ DSC off.

As Big Willow is a fairly fast track, and there are many areas where you simply don't want to go off, I took it easy and it felt like I was learning to track-drive all over again.

But, while that is precisely the main reason why I didn't want to deviate from tracking in MDM mode [i.e. after going to 5 local tracks at least half dozen times each, all in MDM mode, having learned the (MDM) lines, (MDM) gear selection at various corners, (MDM) throttlling, etc, the prospect of relearning all that in TC off mode seemed only a month ago an unnecessary prospect/exercise], I think now is the time. I guess, rather than letting people who are in different situations and with different outlooks trying to convince you, I just had to come to a self-realization.

Meanwhile, yesterday, my track buddies who have been tracking from the beginning w/ TC off (primarily due to lack of MDM, or something similar to MDM) are flying around the track, and one even set his personal best time this weekend.

Good for him, and them, but I'm keeping my ego in check and will go slow so that I can eventually go faster. And, start experimenting at various corners of various tracks.

An example: turn 3 at Big Willow requires a major braking, and then the left turn takes you up the hill. In MDM, I used to downshift to 3rd gear (DCT), turn, and start pumping the gas pedal (essentially fighting the MDM computer that was cutting the gas on me due to the steering wheel angle). Welp, I quickly learned that things get dicey if you exit that same corner in 3rd gear with DSC off, as the following video shows. Keep in mind that, a lot of cars go off there, left & right. Yesterday, an E46 M3 spun there and hit the wall on the left side.

Anyhow, I guess this post sort of morphed into a blog. I plan on doing the summer track days to re-learn the various tracks and hope to be besting my personal best lap times by October/November. It's gonna be a blast.

Power on oversteer is the classic bad habit for people coming from traction control on. Kudos for you to making the advancement, understanding what the car is doing, and adjusting.

I feel like a broken record in the passenger seat repeating over and over...OPEN THE WHEEL. If you repeat it to yourself from apex to track out you'll see that tendency to apply too much throttle disappear.

Look at it this way...either you open the wheel at track out while applying throttle or the car will force you to not just open it but add opposite lock.

Bravo for posting the video and progressing.
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      05-07-2012, 09:32 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
I guess it depends on driving style, but I know I'm not the first to think 275 square can cause oversteer on E92 M3's. I'm confident 295/275 or possibly even 295/265 would be quicker than 275 square, it's just weighing operating costs and speed. Assuming the traction is rear-limited on a 275 sq setup that is. I'm not trying to start a big debate though, I know there are plenty on here and if you like your 275 square that's all that matters.
I've run a 295/265 combination before. It's a nice combination for high speed tracks, but its surprising how much understeer you'll get. Trying to get the car rotated takes some effort with 295 rears. That's why I went to 275. I still get the same rear stability, but the front is much more responsive.
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      05-07-2012, 09:50 AM   #122
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I don't know how you can keep MDM on...at least the non-ZCP MDM. You're leaving so much on the table on exit especially on tigher, slower corners because this car is so heavy. The beauty of this car is how you can rotate the car with power. You can feel the M-diff doing its job in getting the car straight. But you need slip angle and even allow the tires to slide and the inside tire to spin a little. MDM kills it. Even if you do lose the back end, the car WANTS to straighten out. I was in a tank slapper this weekend. After about 3 oscillations, I had it but I went over a curb, upset the car and then spun. Even as I was spinning, you can tell the car wants to straighten out. Check out the video below...see how the rear end doesn't whip around...

I was in some of your shoes a couple of months ago. Don't want to defeat DSC because you're not confident about catching oversteer. I dialed it back and started to force the car to oversteer on slow, safe (no wall) corners with a stab of the throttle and then catch it. You start to get in a rhythm and get that feel. You also gain confidence. As you do that, build a little speed.

I think drifting is an EXCELLENT way to gain confidence in car control. I did one drifting practice and I learned a LOT!

I do keep MDM on for the first session. I think it helps me to knock off the rust quicker by punishing me for not being smooth...rather than spinning the car.



Here's a video of me at the drift practice I went to...

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      05-07-2012, 09:51 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
looks fun gearhead, I bet it wouldn't take much to get the rear loose on ice. A few friends and I have toyed with the idea of renting a large parking lot normally used for auto-x for a day and wetting it down to practice countersteer without risking our cars.
The majority of the tracks around here have skidpads and we try to bring a water truck in which usually makes the exersizes much more useful.One of the best exersizes is entering the skid pad at high speed into a decreasing radius turn marked by the pylons.it amazed me how many experienced track rats could not do this properly without spinning.When I was racing I was quite amazed by the lack of car control that so many racers displayed in the wet or even in the dry!
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      05-07-2012, 10:01 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porschefile View Post
I guess it depends on driving style, but I know I'm not the first to think 275 square can cause oversteer on E92 M3's. I'm confident 295/275 or possibly even 295/265 would be quicker than 275 square, it's just weighing operating costs and speed. Assuming the traction is rear-limited on a 275 sq setup that is. I'm not trying to start a big debate though, I know there are plenty on here and if you like your 275 square that's all that matters.
A square setup on a E9x M3 is a very neutral setup unlike the stock staggered setup that understeers quite a bit on corner entry which causes you to make large corrections with the wheel & throttle to place the car properly.With 400+ hp you have to be careful to avoid large amounts of power oversteer on exit in the lower gears regardless of running a square or staggered setup.I think a square setup will be the quicker setup for somebody experienced and still an easy to drive setup for a novice to learn on.
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      05-07-2012, 10:04 AM   #125
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Quote:
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Looks like you were sliding on something...coolant or oil maybe.
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      05-07-2012, 10:11 AM   #126
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Quote:
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Looks like you were sliding on something...coolant or oil maybe.
I would like to think that but I'm pretty sure I was a little late on the initial correction. But those 2 turns are an example of where DSC would intervene unnecessarily. The turn is off camber and then there is another subtle right hander so it is really 3 turns which rotate more than 180 degrees. My 330 has a lot more front end grip so I didn't have an understeer issue. This car is heavier and, IMO, faster if you stay on or feed in a little throttle to rotate the car. Because the diff in this car is fantastic and will rotate the car. Won't do it in MDM though.
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      05-07-2012, 04:08 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyoo View Post
OC3, I'm glad the training wheels are coming off. I'm sure you'll have a blast and that you have the skills to be a great DSC-free driver. But I recommend to you and to everyone that to protect your investment, buy HPDE insurance if you haven't already.

I'm very glad I did...especially in light of what almost happened at Thunderhill this weekend...
Which insurance carrier did you use?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Nice catch guys

This is what car control is all about!
Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
Power on oversteer is the classic bad habit for people coming from traction control on. Kudos for you to making the advancement, understanding what the car is doing, and adjusting.

I feel like a broken record in the passenger seat repeating over and over...OPEN THE WHEEL. If you repeat it to yourself from apex to track out you'll see that tendency to apply too much throttle disappear.

Look at it this way...either you open the wheel at track out while applying throttle or the car will force you to not just open it but add opposite lock.


Bravo for posting the video and progressing.
10-4, good to know.
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      05-07-2012, 07:38 PM   #128
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Which insurance carrier did you use?
I use Lockton Affinity. There's a discount for BMWCCA members. There may be cheaper options.

http://bmwhpdeins.locktonaffinity.com/
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      05-09-2012, 02:13 AM   #129
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Here's a video of me at the drift practice I went to...
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      05-09-2012, 02:29 AM   #130
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Tires have a lot to do with it, too. You'll probably find that low-aspect street tires with stiff sidewalls are easier to manage than soft, grippy track tires.

Last edited by Drifty//; 05-09-2012 at 02:40 AM.
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      05-09-2012, 02:37 AM   #131
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I'll be honest, having a supercharged m3 at the track, I was pretty scared to go DSC off. The first few track days, I kept running MDM. It got to the point where you get comfortable and go full dsc off.. The car is alot more to drive. It's extremely fun but can get pretty sideways if you are over driving...

My advise, take it however you feel comfortable.
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      05-09-2012, 09:04 PM   #132
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Drives: 2015 M4 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Ouch !! That seems like a pretty hard hit when you hit the turtles just before your spin. Any damage to your left rear wheel or suspension? Or does it just look bad in the video?
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