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      02-25-2012, 11:45 AM   #45
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It would be interesting to see lap times with MDM on vs MDM off. Anyone has done it?
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      02-25-2012, 12:16 PM   #46
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that will vary wildly between drivers depending on your skill level. some will benefit from having nannies and some will be slowed down. that goes to my earlier point. at the point in your track progression that you feel mdm is slowing you down its time to turn it off. with good data acquisition you will be able to tell if you are faster or slower as well as how comfortable you are with each situation.
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      02-26-2012, 01:19 AM   #47
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The answer is easier for me. I don't have MDM. Consequently, it's always OFF at the track which suits me just fine. The car is extremely balanced, particularly with a square setup, and I feel that DSC OFF encourages smoother input.
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      02-26-2012, 02:09 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchBoy View Post
The answer is easier for me. I don't have MDM. Consequently, it's always OFF at the track which suits me just fine. The car is extremely balanced, particularly with a square setup, and I feel that DSC OFF encourages smoother input.
+1

no mdm mode here. I think by the first half day at the track dsc was getting in the way so its always shut off. This car really is stupid easy to drive, even with all the nannies off. Its just that good.

of course instead of buying track insurance, I just bought a dedicated track car.
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      02-26-2012, 07:19 AM   #49
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It's always hilarious to see a guy show up with r-comps, suspension and a BBK, who leaves his DSC on. That's not a learning situation. Street tires, no DSC, and on a wet day is a better way to go. Put the money you save on R-comps into track insurance.
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      02-28-2012, 05:32 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r53s65e90 View Post
I am relying on the hazard triangle to come on. MDM does not blink. Since I was deliberately doing an experiment on tracks I am very comfortable with, I was paying attention to the light. Peripheral vision can pick it up easily.
A few days ago, I took a left hand turn pretty fast. I had DSC on. Instead of the hazard light blinking, I the DSC (car w/skids) on the instrument panel started to flash. Maybe something changed for the 2012s?
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      02-28-2012, 05:37 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
A few days ago, I took a left hand turn pretty fast. I had DSC on. Instead of the hazard light blinking, I the DSC (car w/skids) on the instrument panel started to flash. Maybe something changed for the 2012s?
We are talking about the same indicator: orange triangle with an almost circle around it on the dash. The one that stays always on with dsc off.
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      02-28-2012, 05:51 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r53s65e90 View Post
We are talking about the same indicator: orange triangle with an almost circle around it on the dash. The one that stays always on with dsc off.
No, I'm talking about an icon of a car with skid marks, in between the speedo and tach.
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      02-28-2012, 06:59 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
No, I'm talking about an icon of a car with skid marks, in between the speedo and tach.
Attached is what I am talking about. 09 E90 with DCT. I have no car with skid marks. And you are right it seems to have changed in 2012 as I can tell from the 2012 user manual.
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      02-28-2012, 07:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
A few days ago, I took a left hand turn pretty fast. I had DSC on. Instead of the hazard light blinking, I the DSC (car w/skids) on the instrument panel started to flash. Maybe something changed for the 2012s?
I read a few mentioning about the "hazard" light flashing for DSC intervention... Not sure about this. When you say hazard light, do you mean the red triangle on the centre console (between the two vents) or the DSC light in the gauge cluster? Have any others seen this ?

On my car (2008 M3) it is the DSC light in the gauge cluster that flashes (first pic).

In my wife's S4 (2006) the ESP icon is as per 2nd pic. It seems more recent BMWs are also using this symbol.
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      02-28-2012, 09:15 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r53s65e90 View Post
Attached is what I am talking about. 09 E90 with DCT. I have no car with skid marks. And you are right it seems to have changed in 2012 as I can tell from the 2012 user manual.
Yes, same spot, different icon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I read a few mentioning about the "hazard" light flashing for DSC intervention... Not sure about this. When you say hazard light, do you mean the red triangle on the centre console (between the two vents) or the DSC light in the gauge cluster? Have any others seen this ?

On my car (2008 M3) it is the DSC light in the gauge cluster that flashes (first pic).

In my wife's S4 (2006) the ESP icon is as per 2nd pic. It seems more recent BMWs are also using this symbol.
Yes, mine looks similar to the second pic.

I think the confusion of the "hazard" light has to do with the actual hazard light button with red triangle near the A/C vents in the very center of the dash. I thought that red triangle blinked when DSC was activated. But maybe I was confused, or mistaken. Or maybe with a different model?
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      03-01-2012, 07:21 PM   #56
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Here is an interesting video showing off the Corvette traction management system I was referring to. They make it look impressive in the the last two modes that allow some slip and let the car lay down a nice black stripe on the turn exit.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/highligh...ment-in-action

The video also inadvertently proves the point that traction control indeed makes it impossible to fully control the car and to learn throttle control - they are mashing the throttle on purpose in every run in a rather tight turn, and still make it. An unsuspecting driver would think that's the right to do it.

An ideal (for track) system would intervene only at the point of no return - when there is nothing the driver can do to prevent the car from swapping ends. Not sure if it's possible at all.
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      03-02-2012, 08:17 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxL View Post
Here is an interesting video showing off the Corvette traction management system I was referring to. They make it look impressive in the the last two modes that allow some slip and let the car lay down a nice black stripe on the turn exit.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/highligh...ment-in-action

The video also inadvertently proves the point that traction control indeed makes it impossible to fully control the car and to learn throttle control - they are mashing the throttle on purpose in every run in a rather tight turn, and still make it. An unsuspecting driver would think that's the right to do it.

An ideal (for track) system would intervene only at the point of no return - when there is nothing the driver can do to prevent the car from swapping ends. Not sure if it's possible at all.
The newer generation traction control came out on the Vettes in 2011 and includes full launch control.The newest Vette that i have driven on track is Steves 2008 z06 and its traction control in quite instrusive when in use.Quite interesting for sure!
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      03-15-2012, 05:28 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundpilot View Post
It would be interesting to see lap times with MDM on vs MDM off. Anyone has done it?
I have.

I'm probably in a unique situation in that, I ran 27 track days over an 11 month period (started tracking in April of last year) at 95% in MDM mode.

During that time, I've progressed from a complete track n00b to running in (according to local track event organizers' run group systems) high intermediate or advanced groups (whatever that means).

Using Buttonwillow track as an example (and, it's a good example as it's a technical track and it's a track where time attacks are held & measured at), I did 2:06 both in MDM and with DSC off. Not the fastest, but not slow either. The point is, at this point (8 times on this track), my lap times are the same in both traction control modes. It should be noted that I only ran 1 track day here in DSC off mode all day.

While I'm sure I can reduce that lap time further by going DSC off exclusively, the prospect of going slower for a while (probably several track days) to eventually go faster is something I don't relish. I guess I'm impatient.

Bottom line is, as several people mentioned, each to his own. I'm having a ton of fun out there at HPDE/track events and there ain't nobody who is going to convince me to run in one traction control mode over another. I've been ridiculed and needled, but (as the song goes) I'll do it my way.

I know the arguments, pros & cons, of MDM vs DSC off. And, with my car's particular setup right now (Ground Control suspension & aggressive camber, Brembo BBK w/ Endless pads & squared R-S3 tires, and otherwise, completely stock), I don't expect to shave substantial amount of time any time soon by going DSC off. If anything, I'll be slower for a while. What will get me faster lap time quickly is mods such as better suspension (Moton, JRZ, etc), aero (wing, front splitter), more power (exhaust & tune), etc.

So, what about driver skill? I think I'm decent. Will going DSC off make me a better driver? Possibly. But, to what extent? Will it eventually get me a seat on the Formula 1 circuit? Hah.

Perhaps in hindsight, I should've transitioned to DSC off before I got too comfortable with MDM mode. The thought of doing 5 Southern California tracks that I regularly go to in slower learn-how-to-drive-these-tracks-all-over-again fashion on at least 3 or more visits for each tracks is not exciting.

As for driving in MDM mode, sure, it interferes at slow tight corners when you get on the throttle. At Buttonwillow 13CW, the section that connects the Sweeper to beginning of Esses, at Sunset, at Sunrise and, most of all, at Off-ramp, the faster you get at this track, more the prominent the effect of MDM interference at these corners. It had gotten to the point where, when you get on the throttle, the long silence where everything seem to go in slow motion, seems just forever lasting.

But, I've developed a way to minimize the MDM's negative effect at these corners. MDM, of course, kicks in when it senses that (what it thinks is) too much throttle is being applied "while" the steering wheel is turned. So, you briefly unwind the steering wheel (i.e. straighten it out) to fool the MDM, whence, you see the RPM needle start to climb again and hear the engine sound. But wait, you need to complete the turn, so you turn in again. And, MDM kicks in again. So, you unwind again. So on & so forth. So, videos show the steering wheel being played back & forth, back & forth thru the tight turns. But, that's done with DSC off also, but obviously for a different reason -> to counter against oversteers (and, when you're oversteering, and hence, not going straight, you're losing a bit of time too, aren't you?). So, what's the end result? I feel decently quick thru tight turns (but, obviously not as quick as when DSC off).

As for the upside, well, obviously it's safer than DSC off. I can be very aggressive in attacking the tracks with MDM, and just can't be similarly aggressive with DSC off. To do so would require substantial track equipment upgrades (as mentioned above) or some private lessons from Christian Vettel. Or, several more years of track experience with the same current car setup. At certain sections, I'm slower with DSC off, as the speed is too high and the car (as good a car as M3 is) tends to have more lateral movement than it does in MDM at the same sections. So, I find myself throttling back a bit. And, yes, you definitely take different lines around the tracks when going DSC off.

But, MDM of course won't save you at all situations. Fling the car at 120 mph into a 50 mph turn, lulz, good luck. Physics takes over.

Someone mentioned "thinking about some stupid sh*t" while on the track - i.e. momentarily lose focus. That happened to me this past Saturday at Buttonwillow. As I was going through Bus Stop and approaching left-hand turn 9, I caught a glimpse in the mirror of a track buddy's Stohr F1000 coming up fast behind me. And, for a brief moment, I was admiring its open-wheeled outline. It's a beautiful machinery. Well, when I re-focused on the turn in front of me, I wound up taking the turn a fraction of a second later than I usually do. So, upon exiting, I wound up further out to the right side of the track than usual, and so the rear passenger side wheel went into the dirt, and even in MDM mode, let me tell you, that corner of the car (because the steering wheel was still turned to the left a bit) came swinging out to the right much more so than what MDM usually allows on asphalt. I quickly counter-steered into the slide, but that's when a very interesting thing happened. The backend snapped back (to the left, and so I straightened out the steering wheel), but snapped back neatly inline to the direction of the track. The sensation felt like something spring-loaded rattling back in place rapidly. Here's the video: first is my side window mounted cam, and the second is from Stohr F1000 close up behind me:





While I feel somewhat comfortable with car control, counter-steering, etc, if I was DSC off at that time, I don't think I could've managed the backend of the car to fall so neatly back inline (probably would've fishtailed a bit before getting it straightend). I mean, MDM, with what, its computer taking hundreds of samples a second, was simply marvelous on that close call.

Now, here's another video of an incident at the same corner on several track day events prior. This was from a session that day wherein I wanted to try running DSC off. Well, keenly aware that I was DSC off, I took it easy a bit up to this corner. But, after I made this left turn, I momentarily forgot that I was DSC off and started pumping/modulating the throttle, which is (along with playing w/ the steering wheel back & forth) what I usually had to do in MDM mode (i.e. you're essentially fighting the computer). It, after so many track days, had become a sort of muscle memory.



At least I kept the car from fishtailing around, lulz.

Here's a video of the same spinout taken from thorny's car:



Anyhow, we're obviously not out there racing for money or trophy, and not trying to move up a race class. I'm addicted and having a lot of fun. Not sure what the future will hold for me in terms of traction control setting...

Here's a 2:06.x run in MDM this past Saturday:



.
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Last edited by OC3; 03-15-2012 at 06:01 AM.
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      03-15-2012, 08:45 AM   #59
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That was a long post!

If you're modifying your driving to trick the computer, you're doing it wrong. If the MDM is interfereing, you're overdriving. Maybe not in terms of track driving, but street driving. Your goal should be able to learn throttle modulation and steering input (or unwinding) because that's what you need to do to keep the car on the track....not because you need to keep MDM happy.

That last long slide had more to do with hopping the curb than traction control. If you are hopping things...you need to get your steering done ahead of time, and unwind for the "lightness" in the suspension. Your car and its gizmos have allowed you to go faster than your car control is ready for. Just get some more seat time going slower with DSC off.
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      03-15-2012, 11:56 AM   #60
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I think you post proves the point that driving with MDM at the track generally develops bad driving habits .

However, if you just want to have fun out there and be safe, MDM is perfectly OK .

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
What will get me faster lap time quickly is mods such as better suspension (Moton, JRZ, etc), aero (wing, front splitter), more power (exhaust & tune), etc.
I am also not sure about this statement. To go faster, there usually is a lot to be gained between the seat and the steering wheel before any other mods are required .

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      03-15-2012, 04:58 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
That was a long post!

If you're modifying your driving to trick the computer, you're doing it wrong. If the MDM is interfereing, you're overdriving. Maybe not in terms of track driving, but street driving. Your goal should be able to learn throttle modulation and steering input (or unwinding) because that's what you need to do to keep the car on the track....not because you need to keep MDM happy.
Well, I think modifying one's driving with respect to a particular car and that car's components is something we all do. Who drives a GT-R and a Corvette the same way on tracks? So, arguably, why is it wrong when that's done with respect to MDM?

Modern cars like M3, in comparison to say... a '67 Mustang, can be construed as the entire M3 being sort of like MDM.


Quote:
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That last long slide had more to do with hopping the curb than traction control.
Not true. If you raise the volume and listen for the engine sound, you'll see that the engine was floored after I already went over the berm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Car54 View Post
If you are hopping things...you need to get your steering done ahead of time, and unwind for the "lightness" in the suspension. Your car and its gizmos have allowed you to go faster than your car control is ready for. Just get some more seat time going slower with DSC off.
I do tend to go over berms (but, not at very high speed corners), and I do get my steering done ahead of time. I turn in early, and as I'm over the berms, I'm counter-steering/unwinding, and then land all 4 wheels.

As for gizmos allowing me to go faster, I'll agree. But, again, w/ modern cars like M3, the entire car is a "gizmo." You think people who get 1:55 at Buttonwillow CW13 can do the same with a (for example) '68 Mercury Cougar? Look how much gizmos there are in these modern sports GT cars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I think you post proves the point that driving with MDM at the track generaly develops bad driving habits .

However, if you just want to have fun out there and be safe, MDM is perfectly OK .
Yeah, I see many people of that opinion. In any case, so? Do people with "good" driving habits get a prize and a pat on the back? And, how "really good" are the driving habits of HPDE DSC-off M3 drivers in general? As a direct result of going DSC off, and honing their skills, are they now ready to compete in SCCA or DTM series? Hmmm?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
What will get me faster lap time quickly is mods such as better suspension (Moton, JRZ, etc), aero (wing, front splitter), more power (exhaust & tune), etc.
I am also not sure about this statement. To go faster, there usually is a lot to be gained between the seat and the steering wheel before any other mods are required .
Well, what I said was not an absolute statement. Also, "quickly" is the operative word there. Sure, given time, one can improve driving skills so that you can be very fast without needing additional/better equipments. But, how long does that take? Remember, we're only occasional/weekend hobbyists. We can't be dedicating 60 hours a week on this.

---

In any case, I don't mean to come out sounding like I'm defending MDM or anything like that. It's just that, these discussions & points about MDM vs DSC off, etc, while I understand and generally agree with all things said, I just am not 100% convinced given the context that most of us are in.
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Last edited by OC3; 03-15-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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      03-15-2012, 05:36 PM   #62
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I love how Thorny put up his window haha. classic.

Great videos
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      03-15-2012, 06:17 PM   #63
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I love how Thorny put up his window haha. classic.

Great videos
Hahaha
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      03-15-2012, 06:26 PM   #64
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I have yet to turn off DSC at the track. It is a security blanket that I've held on to. When I was driving on the Nurburgring, the MDM is not really for me as it is for other drivers and unexpected track condition such as an oil slick. You don't have guys on the side of the track waving a yellow flag at you to make you aware if something is wrong on track. With the Ring on tourist days, you are just hoping you have enough time to react to whatever comes up on the next blind corner. I've had an "Oh Shit" moment every weekend there but I've come out good on the other end. In the States, I've only driven on a track once and that was at VIR last month and felt that I probably should start turning DSC off because I do feel it impeding especially in the slower corners like turn 1,4,5,6 and Oak Tree. So look out if you're going to VIR on May 5-6, because there might be an AW M3 spinning wildly out of control at you.

Or not, I AutoX with DSC off... hehe Here's me tossing a 3700lbs car around as fast as the guys in the S2000s with DSC = off, throttle = Sports Plus, Servotronic = Sport, EDC = Sport in the rain.
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      03-15-2012, 06:55 PM   #65
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Mdm

Ok. I feel compelled to offer my 50 cents on the issue. I am relatevly new to the tracking and I drive with the MDM. I do not think MDM is to blame for bad driving habits. Driver's own skill is to blame for bad driving habits. If you drive with every little widget off, you can still have bad habits that result in crappy lap times, not necessarily in spinouts.

My number one goal when I track is improving my lap times. So far every time I went I improved my time considerably. I am in a pretty much stock car on stock tires and after two events on this particular configuration my best time in Button CW13 is 2:08.10.

I just purchased a set of KW clubsports, and as soon as my new wheels (te37sl) come from Japan, I will be getting all these installed along with some RS3 tires and track alignment. I am yet to see what kind of improvement I am going to have from the setup. I am in a great hope that the improvement wont be marginal after looking at how much I spent. Again, my goal is to shave even more time and hopefully join CW13 2 min club.

If I see that my lap times stuck at a certain number, I will consider turning DSC off and see what happens. And if they are not stuck, I'll still try it off. I am 100 percent certain I will do it at some point, but as long as my lap times are getting better, honestly I am not concerned with this issue. Like some people say, I go out there and have fun

And one last point, MDM will intervene when you drive fast on the track, especially in slow corners, and yes I know it cost some time, but saying "mdm intervenes because you overdrive your car or because you have bad habits" is not correct. If you try to keep MDM from going off, you'll be driving like a grandma around the circuit

Bottomline: laptime is the only standard I believe someone should judge how good they are. If you can lap button CW13 under 2 minutes in an M3 you're a great driver, no matter whether your DSC is on or off.

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      03-15-2012, 08:01 PM   #66
CanAutM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny View Post
And one last point, MDM will intervene when you drive fast on the track, especially in slow corners, and yes I know it cost some time, but saying "mdm intervenes because you overdrive your car or because you have bad habits" is not correct. If you try to keep MDM from going off, you'll be driving like a grandma around the circuit
Fully agree. Almost impossible to do a true quick lap without having MDM intervention. It is way to intrusive, especially if you are running a square set-up.

The point about developing bad habits with MDM, is that mostly inexperienced drivers tend to rely on DSC/MDM to cover for their mistakes. With time these mistakes become natural habits and as as speed increases, eventually they can lead to unfortunate events.

IMO, a good example is in OC3's video where he is followed by the formula car. His car was in an an oversteer situation well before he put one wheel off. Yet all the way through he kept steering the car into the turn instead of reacting to the oversteer. It is good that he only put a wheel off and that MDM was able to catch it. With more speed, he might have ended-up sideways in the dirt, and sideways in the dirt can lead to a flip, even with MDM!!!

It is just my opinion, but good driving habits should come first. Next come the fast lap times. Even if we are not aiming to become pros

Last edited by CanAutM3; 03-15-2012 at 08:26 PM.
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