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      02-21-2012, 11:23 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
Bold #1. There are many well qualified people who use an AR for home defense. Clint Smith is one of them. You may have heard of him. Maybe not.
That's nice, really, but most people aren't qualified, especially not the OP who is purchasing his first gun, so recommending otherwise is unwise. And like I said, even if you are, you're still better off with the pistol which I will explain again.

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Either way, a handgun is an inferior weapon compared even to a .22 rifle.
Whoa whoa whoa, back up there, that's a joke right? This is not an opinion as it's a fact that a 9mm has far more stopping power and larger wound cavity then a .22; even a plain old FMJ, let alone a JHP. This is not opinion, it's tested fact.


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I'd rather dominate a situation with an AR. To your point about range and weapon retention: If you are going to have a weapon in the home, you have a responsibility to be able to run the gun. That means understanding proper distances for engagement. If you are sleeping in your bed when accosted, a pistol under a pillow or night stand is your best friend. If you are in separate room from an intruder, I'll take the rifle all day long.
Get out of your fantasy world. I am tired of people with these fantasy scenarios in their heads giving advice to others based of them. You don't engage an intruder in your house from another room. You might think so in your head, but that's a delusion, you will approach the room and check to see who or what is in it first. You might think you're just going to blast through the wall, but you wont, and if you did you would deserve to go to jail for being negligent. That's very basic firearms etiquette.


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Bold #3.The whole point of the internet forum is to be able to post opinions, but sometimes there are differences of opinion that must be discussed if only for the integrity of the learning process for those without your experience. I know people who are exhilarated by shooting anything and to them the AR is the pinnacle.
There's a difference in sharing your opinion and trying to convince someone who shared there's that it's wrong. Which is what happened after I shared mine. You can't convince someone their opinion is wrong. I am not trying to convince you guys of my opinion, simply defending it.

You'll notice I did not argue with NYC6, he shared his opinion differing from mine, but he didn't try to convince me and everyone else that his opinion was right, and mine was wrong like Ybizz has. That's just an ignorant thing to do.


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I agree that many encounters are at close range, but to use your logic, a shotgun would fall in the same category as an AR. I think you said in this thread that a shotgun would be more suitable. I'm not sure if you did so I apologize if you didn't. Either way, a long gun requires a different type of engagement distance than a pistol, and I disagree that it's easier to disarm a long gun than a pistol. Two hands farther apart give greater leverage for retention, not to mention the bludgeon capability of a long gun.
I did not say a shotgun was a good home defense weapon, in fact a stated somewhat to the contrary. Additionally I did not state that it was easy to disarm someone with a rifle, I said it was much easier to overrun them and get inside the muzzle. It's much easier to grab a hold of a rifle an manipulate the muzzle away from you, or simply be so close that it is ineffective (this goes for a shotgun as well). This is not easy to do with a pistol.

Couple that with the stated facts about encounter distance, the fact that most people with hesitate greatly; if a bad guy charges you, chances are they will be on top of most people before they pull the trigger. A pistol can and will be instinctively pulled away, and can still be shot from the hip or other close to the body position, and it's much harder for a bad guy to put his hand on a pistol and manipulate the muzzle away from him. In fact, attempting to do that would likely get them shot, unintentionally.

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The most basic pistol that is reliable enough for self defense will easily cost 300+, not to mention that shooting a long gun accurately is far easier than shooting a pistol accurately, so the training to become proficient must also be factored into your cost criteria.
Again, encounter distance. In self defense you're not shooting at 100feet. Putting a pistol in a complete amateurs hands with no training whatsoever, without even sights, telling them to point and shoot, they will easily hit the target inside of 10 feet. And in fact, you will not be aiming when the time comes. This is not the military, you will not be prepared and on alert for an encounter, it will come as a surprise and you will have an instant to react. Again, facts based of statistics.


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As you said, its all opinion, but if yours is challenged, at least have the decency to provide a well thought out, lucid response instead of just saying its your opinion. You don't have to of course, but for the newb, I think accurate information or at least opinion supported with some sort of fact or experience is incredibly helpful.
I have supported my opinions that can be done so with fact. I cannot support "an m1 is more fun to shoot" with much fact other then it has a bigger cartridge which most people find to be more fun.

You don't "challenge" peoples opinions. They are opinions. You just have a different opinion you share.

The pistol vs rifle thing is not so much of an opinion as it is a widely held notion.
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      02-21-2012, 11:32 AM   #68
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I think knives are a good idea. Big, fuck-off shiny ones. Ones that look like they could skin a crocodile. Knives are good, because they don't make any noise, and the less noise they make, the more likely we are to use them. Shit 'em right up. Makes it look like we're serious. Guns for show, knives for a pro.
That being said, I like knives.
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      02-21-2012, 11:50 AM   #69
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I carry a Springfield Armory TRP Operator as a sidearm, and I have equipped all of our cars with Remington 870s worked on by Wilson Combat and Rock River Arms AR 15s. 870s have slug and the ARs have 55 grain soft points for people and FMJ for hard targets.
Have you put up a pic of that TRP? How did I miss that? Outstanding choice.
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      02-21-2012, 12:31 PM   #70
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You'll notice I did not argue with NYC6, he shared his opinion differing from mine, but he didn't try to convince me and everyone else that his opinion was right, and mine was wrong like Ybizz has. That's just an ignorant thing to do.
I'm not going to stoop to your level and result to name-calling and insults (which you've resulted to throughout our discussion). It's the internet. Just curious though, what is the deal with all of the tsuris? Can you not get away with acting like that in person or something?

All you have done is try to convince people that you were RIGHT about your opinion.

Chief example: Your claim that the AR-15 is not a good home defense weapon. That is your opinion. You tried to convince me, and others, that you were right.
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      02-21-2012, 12:39 PM   #71
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Some people do train in their homes for SD. I run 2 typical scenarios:


1. Intruder at night while in my bedroom.

For which i have a pistol, trench gun (read short barrel pistol grip), and my short barrel AR within reach or a few feet from my bed. About once a month i run my house from the bedroom with each weapon. Depending on the situation i will pick the tool. If someone is at my bedroom door, i'll grab the shotty or pistol. If i hear things happening on the other side of the house i will strap on my pistol and run the house with the AR. I choose the AR because i just feel more comfortable with it in regards to handling. I feel like i can hang on to that more easily than the shot gun with only a pistol grip. There are actually 2 pistols next to my bed, one is super easy access. The other is in a holster attached to a belt so i can quickly put it on for clearing the house.


2. Coming home during burglary.

This one i'm am only armed with a pistol because i always have one in the car and i'm not going to get another AR to keep in the garage. Of course this one is more difficult pick up on unless you noticed something amiss when arriving home. Hoping that i would pick up on that, i also practice running the house from the garage entrance.

Of course both scenarios are run with the lights off. While i do practice clearing the whole house i also try and think from the baddies perspective with different motives. This way i have an idea where one might be hiding or waiting for me. If i had my way, i would have my AR & pistol coming in from the garage as well. After all the repetition, i just feel more comfortable running the house with that weapon.

This might sound like over kill, especially since i live at the end of a dead end street with water on two sides of my property, which i share with a 100# American Bulldog. But i figure there are some crazy people out there and should i have an intruder at some point they are either going to be really dumb or really crazy. So while the likelihood is slim, I should be even more prepared in the event it actually does happen. I've been part of the restoration process of some fatal home invasion shootings and as Mike can attest, there are some whacked out people out there.


Just figured i'd chime in to let people know that you don't have to be government trained to become proficient at handling your weapons and defending your loved ones and property. After all this discussion on what to use, get, etc... no matter what you have, it likely won't do you much good unless you practice to become proficient with it. So learn how to use it and do so safely.
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      02-21-2012, 01:10 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
I'm not going to stoop to your level and result to name-calling and insults (which you've resulted to throughout our discussion). It's the internet. Just curious though, what is the deal with all of the tsuris? Can you not get away with acting like that in person or something?

All you have done is try to convince people that you were RIGHT about your opinion.

Chief example: Your claim that the AR-15 is not a good home defense weapon. That is your opinion. You tried to convince me, and others, that you were right.
Again, that's your failure at reading comprehension, I suggest you actually go back and review, you'll see I am defending my opinion against you trying to say it's wrong (actually I mostly only correct you and others putting words in my mouth). I say I think an ar15 is boring and an m1 is more fun to shoot, you say no I'm wrong your opinion is right. I defend my opinion, which requires refuting yours. There's a difference between defending an opinion against someone trying to convince people that there's is right and someone else is wrong, and being the moron that tried to do it in the first place (that's you, since you probably haven't figured that out)
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      02-21-2012, 02:08 PM   #73
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In your opinion [NOTE: This is a signal that I have acknowledged your opinion and am about to offer my opinion and my basis for having such an opinion. Amazingly, this does not automatically mean that I believe that it is "right."], they (AR-15s) have no utility. (Apparently "oomph" and "hunting" are the only two possible purposes of rifles.) If I wanted some more "oomph" with my AR, I'd slap a 300BLK upper on it and have some fun. At 300 meters, the 300BLK has around 15-16% more energy than the 7.62x39 (AK) round. It's basically a cut down .223 casing with an AK bullet shoved in it.

The AR-15/M4 is arguably the most popular rifle platform in use today (at least in the United States). The M4 carbine is used by the U.S. military, countless law enforcement agencies across the country, and hundreds of thousands of civilians.

You know, some people train with their weapons/attend classes (like some members here track their cars), set them up to be home defense weapons, etc. and do not just go out in their backyard and shoot at coke cans 15 feet away once or twice a month.

The 5.56/.223 isn't a large round but it is still very effective/lethal out to about 500 yards.

Go spend about 5 hours over here: www.m4carbine.net and learn a little about the platform before you make yourself look silly.

And most importantly, to each his own. [This is pretty self-explanatory.]

P.S. - I enjoy all firearms. Nice M1.
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Again, that's your failure at reading comprehension, I suggest you actually go back and review, you'll see I am defending my opinion against you trying to say it's wrong (actually I mostly only correct you and others putting words in my mouth). I say I think an ar15 is boring and an m1 is more fun to shoot, you say no I'm wrong your opinion is right. I defend my opinion, which requires refuting yours. There's a difference between defending an opinion against someone trying to convince people that there's is right and someone else is wrong, and being the moron that tried to do it in the first place (that's you, since you probably haven't figured that out)
I love how your stance is that you are DEFENDING your opinion (not trying to convince me/others that it is right).

But when I try to express my opinion, I am trying to convince you/others that is right, rather than just defending MY opinion.

Can you read what I quoted up there? Are you capable of understanding that? How did you fail to interpret the statement: "To each his own" to mean anything else than an acknowledgment of the fact that we had differing opinions?

Do you have to make up for your lack of logic and reason by calling me ignorant, moron, idiot, etc.?
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      02-21-2012, 02:11 PM   #74
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Lol a mod who has gun knowledge, and a short temper. Note to self: don't mess with him.
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      02-21-2012, 02:14 PM   #75
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Lol a mod who has gun knowledge, and a short temper. Note to self: don't mess with him.
Watch your back Collins.
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      02-21-2012, 02:31 PM   #76
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In all seriousness, as a veteran on this site that recognizes almost everyone, also as a gun newb who asked the same question. Ybiz, and immiketoo know their shit. One is a professional badass(mike), the other is very knowledgable in guns. Mike's opinion wil lean towards the "cooler" tactical guns, Ybiz leans towards the most mature means.


Disregard the bickering OP, and listen to those two guys.
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      02-21-2012, 02:51 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
As for cost, a Remington 870 can be had for $300 bucks, will function flawlessly and will easily dominate a room.
I love my 870

With an 18" barrel it's pretty good for home defense if kept near by.

Besides, nothing puts the fear of God in someone quite like a pump action "cha-chunk"
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      02-21-2012, 02:53 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
I love how your stance is that you are DEFENDING your opinion (not trying to convince me/others that it is right).

But when I try to express my opinion, I am trying to convince you/others that is right, rather than just defending MY opinion.

Can you read what I quoted up there? Are you capable of understanding that? How did you fail to interpret the statement: "To each his own" to mean anything else than an acknowledgment of the fact that we had differing opinions?

Do you have to make up for your lack of logic and reason by calling me ignorant, moron, idiot, etc.?
Lol, proving again you lack reading comprehension by quoting that post of yours. The conversation went like this:

Me: my opinion I like m1s more then AKs and ARs, they aren't fun without full auto.

You: disagreeing with my opinion I disagree, and anyone who knows anything knows full auto is just for fun (you misunderstood)

Me: Allowing you to have your opinion that is different from mine, but clarifying your misunderstanding of what I said about full auto: No shit they are for fun, that was the point, I don't see an AK or AR as much fun as an M1 without full auto. (further explaining my opinion, not attacking yours)

You (the post you quoted): Again disagreeing with my opinion and trying to explain why your opinion is right and you think mine is wrong: ARs can have oompf, ARs are popular, ARs have utility as home defense weapons.

Me: (Ignoring your post and letting you have your own opinion that is different then mine AGAIN) Explaining to immiketoo he misunderstood my comment about full auto, even though I already clarified. Further clarifying the point that semi auto rifles are for fun, and an ar15 without full auto is just a small cartridge semi auto rifle you can bling out (which I don;t think is all that fun), and that isn't appropriate for home defense. Pointing out this is my opinion and useless to disagree with.

You: Again challenge my opinion with your own, even though I let you have your opinion, as is appropriate. It's obvious you aren't going to let it go and your opinion is right and mine is wrong

Me: Share my opinion that your opinion is dumb (as you have to me twice now)

You: nuh uh. Prove it.
(I ignore this AGAIN letting you simply have your own opinion and talk to others)

You: Again trying to pick a fight after I ignored your last attempt. here's a bunch of reasons why I think my opinions right and a rifle is good for home defense, Ocha still won't provide any reasoning behind his opinion.

I give in

Me: OK fine, have it your way, here are just a few reasons why a rifle is an inappropriate SD weapon.

You: both a handgun and rifle are effective SD weapons.

Me: (oh great argument over)Ok that's great the only reason I argued the point in the first place was because you would not let it go. Cool so we're done now, my only point in the first place was I just think an m1 is more fun. Cool end of story.

You: JUST KIDDING IM GONNA PICK MORE FIGHTS No you're still wrong all your reasoning was flawed.

Me: Seriously? We can't be done with it? Fine Here's some clarification.

You: oh no special forces uses it.

Me: great here's why and why it's still inappropriate for self defense not war.

You: ULTIMATE VICTORY I think I caught you going back on what you said, but really I just can't read.

me: No actually, you just didn't read correctly.

You: yes I am a dumbass for comparing a rifle round to a pistol round.

Me: yes you are.

you: youre right



If you go post by post, you'll discover that is, in fact, the course of the discussion between us, have a nice day.
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      02-21-2012, 03:16 PM   #79
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In all seriousness, as a veteran on this site that recognizes almost everyone, also as a gun newb who asked the same question. Ybiz, and immiketoo know their shit. One is a professional badass(mike), the other is very knowledgable in guns. Mike's opinion wil lean towards the "cooler" tactical guns, Ybiz leans towards the most mature means.


Disregard the bickering OP, and listen to those two guys.
Excellent point made by Collins re: Immiketoo. He really is a valuable resource. He's someone that trains with a variety of weapons for a living.
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      02-21-2012, 03:21 PM   #80
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have a nice day.
Sorry that's all I caught there that stood out.

I'll let the other posters draw their own conclusions, as Collins suggested.

By the way, O-cha, let me know when you take your rifle outdoors and beyond 51 feet off of a bench sometime.
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      02-21-2012, 03:24 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CollinsE90 View Post
In all seriousness, as a veteran on this site that recognizes almost everyone, also as a gun newb who asked the same question. Ybiz, and immiketoo know their shit. One is a professional badass(mike), the other is very knowledgable in guns. Mike's opinion wil lean towards the "cooler" tactical guns, Ybiz leans towards the most mature means.


Disregard the bickering OP, and listen to those two guys.
Excellent point made by Collins re: Immiketoo. He really is a valuable resource. He's someone that trains with a variety of weapons for a living.
Professionally at that. The YouTube Russian shoots all guns, but mike does it better than most in the US. So his opinion on the ownership, accuracy, ability, and diverse situations is one of the best you can hear.

But, I'm sure your knowledge on guns is as close, he just trains with them, you read and research.

Mike also worked at a gun store, so the aforementioned resume makes those quality resources.

The rest is just personal vendettas
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      02-21-2012, 04:24 PM   #82
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Professionally at that. The YouTube Russian shoots all guns, but mike does it better than most in the US. So his opinion on the ownership, accuracy, ability, and diverse situations is one of the best you can hear.

But, I'm sure your knowledge on guns is as close, he just trains with them, you read and research.

Mike also worked at a gun store, so the aforementioned resume makes those quality resources.

The rest is just personal vendettas
Haha I train with them too. On a civilian level. Taking a class with Chris Costa in the summer.
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      02-21-2012, 04:49 PM   #83
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Sorry that's all I caught there that stood out.

I'll let the other posters draw their own conclusions, as Collins suggested.

By the way, O-cha, let me know when you take your rifle outdoors and beyond 51 feet off of a bench sometime.
What ever do you mean? Are you suggesting that paper targets don't rush at you wielding it's own weapon?

Many people fail to realize that nothing can prepare people for the stress of a home invasion except experience. And you'll need a lot of experience to keep cool when being attacked in the dark wearing your boxers. There have been cases where cops have fired double digit shots at less than 15ft and only hit the perp with 20% of their shots.

It's easy for just about any first time shooter to hit a life size target at 10 with a pistol. Double or triple their heart & breathing rate, turn off the lights, and have the now live and desperate target attack the same first time shooter and see if different results don't prevail.
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      02-21-2012, 05:09 PM   #84
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What ever do you mean? Are you suggesting that paper targets don't rush at you wielding it's own weapon?

Many people fail to realize that nothing can prepare people for the stress of a home invasion except experience. And you'll need a lot of experience to keep cool when being attacked in the dark wearing your boxers. There have been cases where cops have fired double digit shots at less than 15ft and only hit the perp with 20% of their shots.

It's easy for just about any first time shooter to hit a life size target at 10 with a pistol. Double or triple their heart & breathing rate, turn off the lights, and have the now live and desperate target attack the same first time shooter and see if different results don't prevail.
Well said sir. There is no gentlemen's agreement with an attacker that I'm aware of that provides that he will stop, allow you to get comfortable and get a good sight picture before the encounter proceeds.

Some people just like to shoot for the mere "fun" of it and punch holes in paper. There's no problem with that. I happen to like doing a bit more "training" than that. I've seen this quote on another forum and I couldn't agree more with it - "A firearm should be considered a fighting weapon first. Any other use should be considered a bonus."

I've been itching to do a carbine class for a while but there haven't been many offered recently in my area that would work with my schedule. Maybe I can just book a weekend with immiketoo .
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      02-21-2012, 05:45 PM   #85
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Besides, nothing puts the fear of God in someone quite like a pump action "cha-chunk"
I'm not sure those particular a-holes have a God. And I'd rather surprise them (not give away my position).

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      02-21-2012, 06:19 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
I love my 870

With an 18" barrel it's pretty good for home defense if kept near by.

Besides, nothing puts the fear of God in someone quite like a pump action "cha-chunk"
I have seen quite a few people startle at the sound of it. It sends a message that its getting real.

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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
Excellent point made by Collins re: Immiketoo. He really is a valuable resource. He's someone that trains with a variety of weapons for a living.
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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
Sorry that's all I caught there that stood out.

I'll let the other posters draw their own conclusions, as Collins suggested.

By the way, O-cha, let me know when you take your rifle outdoors and beyond 51 feet off of a bench sometime.
Why the hell would you bench rest a rifle at 51 feet? Oh wait.... I see what you did there -____-

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Originally Posted by CollinsE90 View Post
Professionally at that. The YouTube Russian shoots all guns, but mike does it better than most in the US. So his opinion on the ownership, accuracy, ability, and diverse situations is one of the best you can hear.

But, I'm sure your knowledge on guns is as close, he just trains with them, you read and research.

Mike also worked at a gun store, so the aforementioned resume makes those quality resources.

The rest is just personal vendettas
Not sure what O-Cha has against me, but I even agreed with him that an M1 is more fun!

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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
Well said sir. There is no gentlemen's agreement with an attacker that I'm aware of that provides that he will stop, allow you to get comfortable and get a good sight picture before the encounter proceeds.

Some people just like to shoot for the mere "fun" of it and punch holes in paper. There's no problem with that. I happen to like doing a bit more "training" than that. I've seen this quote on another forum and I couldn't agree more with it - "A firearm should be considered a fighting weapon first. Any other use should be considered a bonus."

I've been itching to do a carbine class for a while but there haven't been many offered recently in my area that would work with my schedule. Maybe I can just book a weekend with immiketoo .
I drove 5800 miles round trip to go to Oregon to attend Clint's class. It was worth every penny and I would do it again in a heart beat! You should do the same.

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Originally Posted by Redcapote View Post
I'm not sure those particular a-holes have a God. And I'd rather surprise them (not give away my position).

This is a valid point sir. Sneaky is better, but are you prepared to shoot without a verbal challenge first? If not, verbal challenge and pump action leave quite an impression.


Lastly, not once did I advocate shooting through walls. I said engaging from another room if it was an option. If not, I said the nightstand gun is your best option. Here's mine.
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      02-21-2012, 06:52 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
Sorry that's all I caught there that stood out.

I'll let the other posters draw their own conclusions, as Collins suggested.

By the way, O-cha, let me know when you take your rifle outdoors and beyond 51 feet off of a bench sometime.
Again, you highlight your failure in reading comprehension. Like I said, I took it to the indoor range out of convenience and to break in the barrel, I'm starting to wonder if you have a disability where you can't finish reading an entire sentence.


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Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
What ever do you mean? Are you suggesting that paper targets don't rush at you wielding it's own weapon?

Many people fail to realize that nothing can prepare people for the stress of a home invasion except experience. And you'll need a lot of experience to keep cool when being attacked in the dark wearing your boxers. There have been cases where cops have fired double digit shots at less than 15ft and only hit the perp with 20% of their shots.

It's easy for just about any first time shooter to hit a life size target at 10 with a pistol. Double or triple their heart & breathing rate, turn off the lights, and have the now live and desperate target attack the same first time shooter and see if different results don't prevail.
That was actually the point I was making, most people don't use their sights AND freeze up, which allows an attacker inside of point blank. In which case having a rifle, you'll be far more screwed then having a pistol.

If you go look in the handgun thread you'll see I already recommended practicing without using the sights, rapid fire point and shooting, because when it comes down to it, that's what you'll be doing. Also to practice shooting from the hip, one handed and with your off hand. Commenting that just going to the range and squeezing off well aimed rounds every few seconds wont do much to save you.
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      02-21-2012, 07:38 PM   #88
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Has anyone had an intruder and had to use there weapon?(either for threat or use?)
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