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      02-16-2012, 02:52 AM   #67
Nition
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Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
first of all, all manufacturers overestimate their gains. learn that as a rule.

second of all, what franklin was saying is that not all m3s will dyno the same baseline numbers, even if they are stock. it is extremely likely that my car for example and richards, if both stock, would not dyno the same power. look at the huge variation in numbers from stock dynos that are posted on this site for proof. more proof is that both dinan cars had the same mods and didnt make the same power. if all m3s made the same power, such a variation would be impossible.

finally, it seems like you didnt read post 14 in this thread. compare the power under the curve between the modded cars and stock cars at all RPMs. this is what was done in post 14. you can clearly see the difference in power. it is possible that the 09 m3, with modifications to the tune, can make upwards of 360 SAE whp by making power all the way to redline. this is yet to be seen, and the car will be taken back to the dyno to see if we can make it happen.

not to mention that franks car makes 20+ SAE whp (which is not what most manufacturers use because SAE is more conservative and shows lower readings) more than the stock car at redline. this is not an insignficant gain.
I still think manufacturers (not limited to performance parts manufacturers) should be more truthful when advertising their products. According to almost every dyno chart that I've come across, no stock M3 has produced 350whp (around 410 crank) or more. Most of them produced around 330-335 whp (which is around 395 crank, please correct me if I'm wrong). This includes cars that are less than a year old. Then why is BMW claiming that it produces 414hp? I'm not complaining about the lack of power, but about the honesty of the manufacturers. Why false advertise? 395 crank hp is not a small number, just tell the truth.

To go back to the discussion, I do understand that they overestimate. But overestimating for more than 150% of the gain is a little concerning. The two Dinan cars here produced similar power. I've also looked at the charts on post 14. However, it still stands that none of the cars (disregarding the car having issues with the tuning) produced power that is even close to what it should produce. All the charts show a drop in torque figures while every single product is supposed to produce a gain in torque.

Edit: I meant to say that the modded cars produced less torque than the stock car. I cannot possibly know the torque figure of the modded cars when they were stock. Hence, I cannot know if they produced less or more.

Last edited by Nition; 02-16-2012 at 03:08 AM.
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      02-16-2012, 03:05 AM   #68
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With regards to Frank's car, I have made some calculations. Please feel free to correct me. Here are the claimed gains from the website:

Dinan rear exhaust (+6hp), Dinan mid exhaust (+23hp), Dinan pulley (+11hp), Dinan mid-pipe tune (+9hp). Total = 49hp, which should convert to about 30whp.

You say that his car made +20whp or more. Although this is impressive, it is still substantially less than what is claimed.
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      02-16-2012, 08:30 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nition View Post
I still think manufacturers (not limited to performance parts manufacturers) should be more truthful when advertising their products. According to almost every dyno chart that I've come across, no stock M3 has produced 350whp (around 410 crank) or more. Most of them produced around 330-335 whp (which is around 395 crank, please correct me if I'm wrong). This includes cars that are less than a year old. Then why is BMW claiming that it produces 414hp? I'm not complaining about the lack of power, but about the honesty of the manufacturers. Why false advertise? 395 crank hp is not a small number, just tell the truth.

To go back to the discussion, I do understand that they overestimate. But overestimating for more than 150% of the gain is a little concerning. The two Dinan cars here produced similar power. I've also looked at the charts on post 14. However, it still stands that none of the cars (disregarding the car having issues with the tuning) produced power that is even close to what it should produce. All the charts show a drop in torque figures while every single product is supposed to produce a gain in torque.

Edit: I meant to say that the modded cars produced less torque than the stock car. I cannot possibly know the torque figure of the modded cars when they were stock. Hence, I cannot know if they produced less or more.
You dont apply a fixed driveline loss ratio to a car's WHP to calculate to crank HP. You would take the given stock WHP and apply whatever driveline loss factor needed to get back to the listed crank HP. Thats the first issue.

Second of all, there is a thread right now by EAS that shows a stock car dyno'ing over 350 whp on their dyno. So it has been done before, and there are other examples of it as well.

You cannot compare other cars to each other in terms of absolute numbers regardless of mods or not. It isnt a fair comparison.

For example, you state that the dinan mods should make 25 more whp than the stock car but that franks only made 20 more. It is entirely possible that franks car could have made 5-10 less whp than richards car if dyno'd stock, then the dinan claims would have been substantiated.

Trying to make the predictions like you have without the proper data is not accurate.

And again, the 09 car showed a gain of torque to 261 ft/lbs.

EDIT : Talking about overestimating gains........aftermarket intake companies have been advertising 10+ whp gains on most cars for years.....most of them make zero HP. A good example of this is the e46 m3.
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      02-16-2012, 09:09 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nition View Post
I still think manufacturers (not limited to performance parts manufacturers) should be more truthful when advertising their products
Who's to say they are not Here's what you really need to consider. If we had driven to another dyno right after these runs, do you think we would have gotten some different results? There's a pretty good chance of it happening. I would imagine that these manufactures run their test in perfect conditions and they do so until the desired outcome is achieved. The average gear head goes to the dyno not knowing if the machine has been calibrated or if the conditions are ideal for a run. So if I were you I wouldn't put a lot of stock into the claims some of these guys make. As I stated a few post ago....it's marketing and get this.......it's all legal. I'm sure they have a run file in the fault to back up their claim in the case of a lawsuit.........Phil
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      02-16-2012, 10:26 AM   #71
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This is fascinating data and coversation! Wish I had been able to join you guys that day with my stock E90. Just to throw in one more wrench into the apple and banana comparison.

Forgive the newb question, but why do auto manufacturers report HP at the crank and not the wheels? Isn't whp what really matters?
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      02-16-2012, 11:25 AM   #72
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Need baseline dyno's to make this a fair and accurate comparison. Fabspeed xpipe w/HFCs and Powerchip tune gave me a 26 whp increase over stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwidjojo View Post
2008 M3 E92 - DCT
Stock
334 whp
246 ft-lbs

vs

2009 M3 E90 - 6MT
Performance Mods:
Turner Test Pipe
Evolve Software Tune
Active Autowerke Green Filter
340 whp
244 ft-lbs


so primary cat delete + tune only yields 6 whp increase??
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      02-16-2012, 11:32 AM   #73
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Bolt-on mods definitely makes the car go faster in a straight line... The last time we hit the local drag strip, stock M3ís were running 13 seconds in the ľ mile and 2 M3ís (mine and disapr w/HFCs and tune) were running 12.6 and 12.5 seconds, respectively.

Btw, Richard has us all beaten on the track!


Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
I can almost guarantee that the specific car that put down 370whp SAE will run probably no quicker on the straight away compared to Richards 334whp SAE.

If my assumptions are wrong, please correct me.
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      02-16-2012, 11:40 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nition View Post
Am I missing something? It seems like the power gains that each modification is supposed to make is not even close to the results shown here. The Turner test pipes are supposed to make "over 40whp" but here it shows only 6whp with a tune. Are the product manufacturers lying? Almost pulled the trigger on a HFC x-pipe, but after seeing this, I have my doubts.
Thereís so much BS about what does and does not make power that I only trust what forum users have published independently. The facts are dropping primary cats and adding a tune adds 25 whp. IMO, all other mods: intake, catback, pulley donít make power. Iíve proven that catback exhausts and a pulley donít make power despite manufacture claims.

Unless someone has independently dynoíd the car (before and after) I wouldn't believe what the manufacturers publish
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      02-16-2012, 07:51 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
You dont apply a fixed driveline loss ratio to a car's WHP to calculate to crank HP. You would take the given stock WHP and apply whatever driveline loss factor needed to get back to the listed crank HP. Thats the first issue.

Second of all, there is a thread right now by EAS that shows a stock car dyno'ing over 350 whp on their dyno. So it has been done before, and there are other examples of it as well.

You cannot compare other cars to each other in terms of absolute numbers regardless of mods or not. It isnt a fair comparison.

For example, you state that the dinan mods should make 25 more whp than the stock car but that franks only made 20 more. It is entirely possible that franks car could have made 5-10 less whp than richards car if dyno'd stock, then the dinan claims would have been substantiated.

Trying to make the predictions like you have without the proper data is not accurate.

And again, the 09 car showed a gain of torque to 261 ft/lbs.

EDIT : Talking about overestimating gains........aftermarket intake companies have been advertising 10+ whp gains on most cars for years.....most of them make zero HP. A good example of this is the e46 m3.
First off, EAS does not state whether the results have been SAE corrected. Hence, we don't know how accurate their results were. I mentioned that the Dinan car should be making +30whp or more, not less. 20whp is significantly less than over 30whp. Unless Frank's car's baseline is around 325whp, the claimed gains are still not met. I've made my calculations with the driveline loss in mind. I made calculations with 15-20% driveline loss from crank to wheel, making the baseline numbers more conservative, and making the horsepower gains from the performance mods less conservative, hence "maximizing" the performance gains. However, even then, the power gains do not come close to the claimed results. Keep in mind that I made calculations for the Dinan car gains conservatively (it should really be around +32whp).

I will agree with you that making dumb calculations like this is very inaccurate. However, I am still not convinced that the manufacturers are being honest. This is an independent dyno test and I trust that this dyno is accurate (mainly because you guys have nothing to gain from it other than the information you have presented). And from observation, the dyno results provided by manufacturers differ significantly from what is shown here.
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      02-16-2012, 10:58 PM   #76
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So either all the manufacturers and vendors are being dishonest on their numbers, or the dynojet at MSR Houston was highly uncalibrated to skew the numbers low.

I really wish I had gotten a dyno done when I was stock. I literally went from stock to full-bolt on in one day. On a Wednesday, I only had the Dinan rear muffler. On Thursday, I added the Dinan mid-pipe, Dinan mid-pipe tune, and Dinan pulley.
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