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      02-03-2012, 03:49 PM   #45
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You think because you were a D1 athlete that makes you a nutrition and physiology expert?

Maybe you can help me diagnose this mole I have on my arm too...

EDIT: 25 minutes of biking, that's a cardio workout for you? Coming from a D1 athlete, I expected a lot more. Oh, yea I was a recruited D1 athlete too. I was also all-state in high school for swimming. I've done quite a bit of cardio in my lifetime. I was a distance swimmer. I swam more than 10 miles a day, every day, starting when I was 10, until I was 22. I'm a do'er, as you say... If we're measuring e-peens here, that is...
Your true colors are still showing...I bet you too have a ton of smart-ass thread comments.

Yes, D1 athletes learn a lot more about training and nutrition, but I am no expert. I'm not disagreeing with anyone...I just dont understand why personal attacks have to be made and was in the process of making fun of Quick6EF for doing this numerous times. Why do you insist on making negative comments when it is clear you are not reading everything? 25 min (Bike) cardio each day I work out, that is followed by running 2x per week and speed drills 2x per week. In addition, that is followed by the weight program i listed. BTW...exercise for each area includes numerous types of lifts. I guarantee there are about 95% of the people at every gym that go through the motions and dont actually work hard enough. The bike workout for 25 minutes is balls-out...dripping when I am done. it's not for everyone and i guarantee you would not be able to hang with me...maybe a few months ago when i was a fat couch potato at 225lbs.

Good for you with the swimming...did you swim in College? There is an enormous difference in training, nutrition, and especially coaching at the next level.

Now you just made fun of the other guy...are you not happy? I also agree with him in that it is not molecular engineering or science...just do it!
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      02-03-2012, 04:06 PM   #46
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Your true colors are still showing...I bet you too have a ton of smart-ass thread comments.

Yes, D1 athletes learn a lot more about training and nutrition, but I am no expert. I'm not disagreeing with anyone...I just dont understand why personal attacks have to be made and was in the process of making fun of Quick6EF for doing this numerous times. Why do you insist on making negative comments when it is clear you are not reading everything? 25 min (Bike) cardio each day I work out, that is followed by running 2x per week and speed drills 2x per week. In addition, that is followed by the weight program i listed. BTW...exercise for each area includes numerous types of lifts. I guarantee there are about 95% of the people at every gym that go through the motions and dont actually work hard enough. The bike workout for 25 minutes is balls-out...dripping when I am done. it's not for everyone and i guarantee you would not be able to hang with me...maybe a few months ago when i was a fat couch potato at 225lbs.

Good for you with the swimming...did you swim in College? There is an enormous difference in training, nutrition, and especially coaching at the next level.

Now you just made fun of the other guy...are you not happy? I also agree with him in that it is not molecular engineering or science...just do it!
Physiology is a science. Studying the functions of the metabolism, how it works, how muscle is gained and fat is metabolized, all a science. I'm not debating the facts of exercise or weight loss. I'm arguing the fact that you two seem to think that it is possible to GAIN muscle when you're in a CALORIC DEFICIT. This is not possible. I'm not going to repost the links to studies that have already proven you wrong, but you just come here with opinion based arguments and no facts.

Show me ONE STUDY with a group of people (or even ONE person), with a daily caloric deficit and measurable lean mass gains and you will have proved me wrong. Until then, you're going on all opinions.

Now you are ragging on people for throwing personal attacks out there, but you keep doing it yourself. Hypocrisy huh? I couldn't care less about what you think my "true colors" are, you're still being a hypocrite. Post some facts like the others here have or kindly see your way out of the thread. My true colors are trying to help the OP out and filter the bullshit people like you are trying to feed him.

I'm sure your 25 minute bike workout is really tough...

EDIT: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...ng-fat-qa.html

A good read on some of the physiological processes. If you're an out of shape beginner (not the OP who is in shape already), it's possible to gain muscle and lose fat, but for a small period of time only until the fat cells become less insulin resistant.

And here is another "site" with claims that you can lose fat and gain muscle at the same time: notice that to learn the secret you have to buy their crap, LOL
http://www.holygrailbodytransformation.com/index1.shtml
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      02-03-2012, 04:44 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Physiology is a science. Studying the functions of the metabolism, how it works, how muscle is gained and fat is metabolized, all a science. I'm not debating the facts of exercise or weight loss. I'm arguing the fact that you two seem to think that it is possible to GAIN muscle when you're in a CALORIC DEFICIT. This is not possible. I'm not going to repost the links to studies that have already proven you wrong, but you just come here with opinion based arguments and no facts.

Show me ONE STUDY with a group of people (or even ONE person), with a daily caloric deficit and measurable lean mass gains and you will have proved me wrong. Until then, you're going on all opinions.

Now you are ragging on people for throwing personal attacks out there, but you keep doing it yourself. Hypocrisy huh? I couldn't care less about what you think my "true colors" are, you're still being a hypocrite. Post some facts like the others here have or kindly see your way out of the thread. My true colors are trying to help the OP out and filter the bullshit people like you are trying to feed him.

I'm sure your 25 minute bike workout is really tough... It's nothing compared to my daily 4-5 mile runs and lifting routine, I'm sure... I bet you would just put me to shame...
I never said that "Gain muscle when you're in caloric deficit". But I will now. You jumped all over me so don't call me a hypocrite. I forced myself into a caloric deficit to get my weight down from 225 to 200...but I gained muscle mass. Did it in two months. How do I know?...my strength increased by 30%. You cannot gain strength without gaining muscle mass. There are plenty of papers out there so please search....Why do I have to search for you? You sound like Quick6EF.

BTW...I studied physiology, kinesiology, and anatomy. Did you?

Again...Why the personal attacks? I was also a black belt so we can go to the local dojo and do a few rounds if you want My specialty was Jiu Jitsu with emphasis on Muay Thai. Why do you keep trying to emphasize you are in better than me? I dont care...Is it penis envy? Your car is better than mine? Well, mine is bigger and my car is faster
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      02-03-2012, 04:47 PM   #48
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Your pants fitting has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I am talking about the fact that you think you can lose weight (i.e. be in a caloric deficit which is the only way to lose weight) and still gain muscle mass (which is the exact opposite, because you're gaining).

If you don't believe in science, then that's a whole different issue... Maybe you're a magician? But a caloric deficit does not equal muscle gains. Never has, and never will.
[hammer to skull]

Hey look, as I said already, do what you want to do and I'll stay my course. Personally, you sound like the guy I see at the gym that just sits on a mat and reads his books while everybody around him is actually working out.

Gotta ask though, in all your excitement are you confusing your players? I never said cutting caloric intake alone was going to build muscle. On that, we can agree. It doesn't work that way. You'd lose fat and muscle if all you did was cut the calories. But that doesn't exactly seem like rocket science to figure out.

All I know is as I said in my first post, by cutting my caloric intake, throwing in daily cardio (20-40 mins treadmill) and 4 sets of 10 reps of various dumbell work, my waist and stomach are smaller, and my arms/chest have definitely seen an increase in muscle and strength.

In all this debate, do you think it's possible you're overlooking one small fact; that eing that not everybody responds to caloric deficit, weigh lifting, cardio, etc the same way. Would be nice if it were that simple, but it's just not.

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      02-03-2012, 04:52 PM   #49
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I know your fingers are hitting those key at a feverish pace, but I've had my humor for the day. Talk to you tomorrow buddie
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      02-03-2012, 04:58 PM   #50
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just fun facts, many of the top amateur guys I know that cut for shows don't bother with cardio, they run intermittent fasting or keto diets. Ultimately the key is a caloric deficit for the WEEK (not necessarily per day) and LOW blood sugar thus low insulin levels for 16-18 hours a day average.

Cardio is a dumb way to reduce net caloric intake for a day, and is often counterproductive when done by noobs.

fight on
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      02-03-2012, 05:02 PM   #51
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You cannot gain strength without gaining muscle mass.
Yes you can, elite PL'ers do it every day they train while staying in a weight class.

neurons fire and contract muscle tissue, it's a CNS game as much as a mass game.

ironaddicts.com // leangains.com // alanaragon.com

/thread
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      02-03-2012, 05:02 PM   #52
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just fun facts, many of the top amateur guys I know that cut for shows don't bother with cardio, they run intermittent fasting or keto diets. Ultimately the key is a caloric deficit for the WEEK (not necessarily per day) and LOW blood sugar thus low insulin levels for 16-18 hours a day average.

Cardio is a dumb way to reduce net caloric intake for a day, and is often counterproductive when done by noobs.

fight on
+1...the body builders from DePapes (Gym I trained at for awhile) would do it all of the time before competition. Forgot about that one.
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      02-03-2012, 05:04 PM   #53
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Yes you can, elite PL'ers do it every day they train while staying in a weight class.

neurons fire and contract muscle tissue, it's a CNS game as much as a mass game.

ironaddicts.com // leangains.com // alanaragon.com

/thread
interesting...what's elite PL'ers? Pilates? if so, tha'ts way out from the norm.
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      02-03-2012, 05:41 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfv2 View Post
Yes you can, elite PL'ers do it every day they train while staying in a weight class.

neurons fire and contract muscle tissue, it's a CNS game as much as a mass game.

ironaddicts.com // leangains.com // alanaragon.com

/thread
Thanks for the sites...I agree 'Fuckarounditis'...95% or more in the gym.
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      02-04-2012, 12:11 AM   #55
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Read this article:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne36.htm

Natural bodybuilders have the same goal: lose fat while sparing muscle. Keep you fat loss to 2lbs a week tops.
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      02-05-2012, 08:09 PM   #56
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You know what? I don't need to say anything else, just...

LOL @ these people thinking 20 minutes of biking and treadmill walking/running is hard work...
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      02-05-2012, 08:16 PM   #57
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Read the article in the new Men's Fitness (March 2012)... starting on page 75, titled 'Lose Carbs, Gain Muscle'. It is based around the Carb Nite philosophy and has an excellent 4 day workout cycle to go along with it. Plan to start tomorrow... I have been wanting to cut carbs for awhile now. I will try it out for a month, and depending on how it works out, may or may not continue with it. I have been very happy for the last year with Crossfit though.
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      02-06-2012, 12:52 PM   #58
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Read the article in the new Men's Fitness (March 2012)... starting on page 75, titled 'Lose Carbs, Gain Muscle'. It is based around the Carb Nite philosophy and has an excellent 4 day workout cycle to go along with it. Plan to start tomorrow... I have been wanting to cut carbs for awhile now. I will try it out for a month, and depending on how it works out, may or may not continue with it. I have been very happy for the last year with Crossfit though.
I advise against cutting carbs. Your training will suffer greatly if you're depleted.
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      02-09-2012, 10:06 AM   #59
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Currently I'm running a 500-600 calorie deficit, trying to lose extra fat. I've been watching my macros, but I'm new to this whole thing. I've been lifting and cardio about 5 days a week, but what I'm picking up from this thread is that I can't gain muscle if I'm running a deficit, even if I'm lifting and doing cardio? Is it a situation where you can pick up strength but not mass? I've been uping my bench, but according to this thread there's no way I can be getting stronger if I am running a deficit?
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      02-09-2012, 11:09 AM   #60
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Currently I'm running a 500-600 calorie deficit, trying to lose extra fat. I've been watching my macros, but I'm new to this whole thing. I've been lifting and cardio about 5 days a week, but what I'm picking up from this thread is that I can't gain muscle if I'm running a deficit, even if I'm lifting and doing cardio? Is it a situation where you can pick up strength but not mass? I've been uping my bench, but according to this thread there's no way I can be getting stronger if I am running a deficit?
You are mistakenly assocating increasing your bench with building more muscle.

There was some study that showed that elite power lifters elicit roughly 300% more of a 'response' from a muscle fibre than a newbie does. So most people's initial gains are simply the byproduct of better CNS adaptations.

If you are trying to lose weight, lift heavy compounds 3-4x a week, ditch the cardio except for walking, and eat in a deficit. The fat will melt off.
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      02-09-2012, 11:23 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Currently I'm running a 500-600 calorie deficit, trying to lose extra fat. I've been watching my macros, but I'm new to this whole thing. I've been lifting and cardio about 5 days a week, but what I'm picking up from this thread is that I can't gain muscle if I'm running a deficit, even if I'm lifting and doing cardio? Is it a situation where you can pick up strength but not mass? I've been uping my bench, but according to this thread there's no way I can be getting stronger if I am running a deficit?
Strength does not always mean more mass. You can get stronger and not gain any mass, just like you can sometimes gain mass and not really gain any strength. There's a lot more at play than just muscle growth when it comes to real strength gains or even perceived strength gains.

Unless you're an overweight beginner or you're taking drugs, it is nearly impossible to be in a caloric deficit and gain muscle mass. The math is pretty simple. How can you actually gain something (i.e. an excess) when you're consuming less than what is required? Your body needs energy to grow, and when you're giving it less energy based on your activity, it won't grow. The short answer is that you cannot. People that say otherwise (especially in this thread) are pretty misinformed.

Also, it's much easier to have one goal at a time. People that try to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously usually fail or make such little progress over a long period of time that they quit prematurely. If you want to gain muscle, you can do so while minimizing fat gain and then cut down while minimizing muscle loss in a later phase. This is probably the best (and easiest) way to do it, although it may take longer.
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      02-09-2012, 11:27 AM   #62
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Strength does not always mean more mass. You can get stronger and not gain any mass, just like you can sometimes gain mass and not really gain any strength. There's a lot more at play than just muscle growth when it comes to real strength gains or even perceived strength gains.

Unless you're an overweight beginner or you're taking drugs, it is nearly impossible to be in a caloric deficit and gain muscle mass. The math is pretty simple. How can you actually gain something (i.e. an excess) when you're consuming less than what is required? Your body needs energy to grow, and when you're giving it less energy based on your activity, it won't grow. The short answer is that you cannot. People that say otherwise (especially in this thread) are pretty misinformed.

Also, it's much easier to have one goal at a time. People that try to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously usually fail or make such little progress over a long period of time that they quit prematurely. If you want to gain muscle, you can do so while minimizing fat gain and then cut down while minimizing muscle loss in a later phase. This is probably the best (and easiest) way to do it, although it may take longer.

Thanks for the post. So essentially, I should be eating about what my calculation from the Mifflin-St Jeor says, and worrying about cutting in two/three months? Shoot, there isn't much more fat to lose, maybe a few pounds tops, but I still want to lose it around my midsection before beach weather.

Lifting while eating at a deficit won't do any long term damage or anything like that as long as my macros are good, right? I won't lose much of what I've already gained assuming I eat right and don't cut too much of a deficit?
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      02-09-2012, 11:39 AM   #63
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Thanks for the post. So essentially, I should be eating about what my calculation from the Mifflin-St Jeor says, and worrying about cutting in two/three months? Shoot, there isn't much more fat to lose, maybe a few pounds tops, but I still want to lose it around my midsection before beach weather.

Lifting while eating at a deficit won't do any long term damage or anything like that as long as my macros are good, right? I won't lose much of what I've already gained assuming I eat right and don't cut too much of a deficit?
Are you still wanting to gain mass now? If so, don't worry about a deficit. Don't go crazy, like don't eat 8000 calories a day or something, but you can comfortably eat 500-750 calories over. Just follow your typical lift routine for gaining (if you have one). I've always been a fan of heavy compound lifts for size and strength. Limit your cardio a lot, it'll sap your energy, but don't get rid of it completely, it'll aid in keeping your fat gain at a minimum. Walking and light jogging is good, light bike riding too since it's low impact.

When you go to cut, get a good deficit going and bump up the intensity of your lifts. Less rest in between sets is better than just more reps. You'll naturally do less weight with the less rest in between sets, but you'll still be able to go pretty heavy and you can maintain as much mass as possible. When I am trying to burn fat, I always go from 60-90 seconds in between sets to 30 seconds or less. It might not seem like a lot, but damn you'll be smoked. I can still lift pretty heavy like this, but the intensity of the workouts is higher than my typical gain workout.

As long as your diet is straight you should lose minimal mass while watching the fat melt away.
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      02-09-2012, 11:44 AM   #64
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You are mistakenly assocating increasing your bench with building more muscle.

There was some study that showed that elite power lifters elicit roughly 300% more of a 'response' from a muscle fibre than a newbie does. So most people's initial gains are simply the byproduct of better CNS adaptations.

If you are trying to lose weight, lift heavy compounds 3-4x a week, ditch the cardio except for walking, and eat in a deficit. The fat will melt off.
Makes sense. What/how do you mean lift heavy compounds?
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      02-09-2012, 11:53 AM   #65
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Makes sense. What/how do you mean lift heavy compounds?
Deadlift, squat, bench

Chinups, rows, OHP
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      02-09-2012, 11:56 AM   #66
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Are you still wanting to gain mass now? If so, don't worry about a deficit. Don't go crazy, like don't eat 8000 calories a day or something, but you can comfortably eat 500-750 calories over. Just follow your typical lift routine for gaining (if you have one). I've always been a fan of heavy compound lifts for size and strength. Limit your cardio a lot, it'll sap your energy, but don't get rid of it completely, it'll aid in keeping your fat gain at a minimum. Walking and light jogging is good, light bike riding too since it's low impact.

When you go to cut, get a good deficit going and bump up the intensity of your lifts. Less rest in between sets is better than just more reps. You'll naturally do less weight with the less rest in between sets, but you'll still be able to go pretty heavy and you can maintain as much mass as possible. When I am trying to burn fat, I always go from 60-90 seconds in between sets to 30 seconds or less. It might not seem like a lot, but damn you'll be smoked. I can still lift pretty heavy like this, but the intensity of the workouts is higher than my typical gain workout.

As long as your diet is straight you should lose minimal mass while watching the fat melt away.
I'm thinking I would prefer to cut before I gain mass since time is limited before May or so when it gets nice again. Maybe I should be eating at a larger deficit. I haven't really been losing much weight (maybe a pound or a pound and a half) over the last two-three weeks so I might need to be eating at a bigger deficit?

Good info about the lifting sets. Thanks.
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