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      01-21-2012, 10:26 PM   #23
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Its the drive for fuel economy standards, especially the 2016 regulations in NA, that are driving the modern push to Turbos. The give the milage of small engine when not pushed, the power of bigger engines when pushed. But the more you boost the engine, the more stress you put on it.

My current e90 (335i with Dinan stage 2) will also likely be my last BMW. Not so much because of the Turbos, and the run flat tires, and not having a proper dip stick, and broken door actuators, and bad high-pressure-fuel-pumps, and.......it is partly the ongoing list of things that go wrong, partly that BMW seems to be more interested in the "snob" value than the driving dynamics.
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      01-21-2012, 10:29 PM   #24
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I want to see the look on the hating NA owners faces once they get blasted by a "4cyl 328i" from a stop light. Or any speed for that matter.
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      01-21-2012, 10:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrift4wd View Post
you cant compare a camry to the audi. because they are made with different purposes. different weight, gear ratios, etc etc.
Oh yes we can. don't mix marketing and technology.

The Camry V6 is much quicker than the Audi A4 2.0T .

0-60mph in 5.8s, 5-60mph in 6.1s.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

An Audi A4Q 2.0T auto does 5-60mph in 7.8s.
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      01-21-2012, 10:38 PM   #26
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I personally love turbos (and FI in general). Flat torque curves, easily tunable, good gas mileage if you can keep your foot out of it, and less lossy at altitude. In fact, living at 6,500 feet, I'll never buy another NA car.

-Rich
+1, and I live over 9,000 ft ASL. No thanks to a 290hp M3 for me.
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      01-21-2012, 10:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by hubble bubble View Post
Its the drive for fuel economy standards, especially the 2016 regulations in NA, that are driving the modern push to Turbos. The give the milage of small engine when not pushed, the power of bigger engines when pushed. But the more you boost the engine, the more stress you put on it.

My current e90 (335i with Dinan stage 2) will also likely be my last BMW. Not so much because of the Turbos, and the run flat tires, and not having a proper dip stick, and broken door actuators, and bad high-pressure-fuel-pumps, and.......it is partly the ongoing list of things that go wrong, partly that BMW seems to be more interested in the "snob" value than the driving dynamics.
Good points..Forgot about the missing dip stick.What happened to the magazine netting??Flashlight in the Box??Rest feature??lol
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      01-21-2012, 10:49 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
Oh yes we can. don't mix marketing and technology.

The Camry V6 is much quicker than the Audi A4 2.0T .

0-60mph in 5.8s, 5-60mph in 6.1s.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ad-test-review

An Audi A4Q 2.0T auto does 5-60mph in 7.8s.
No you cant. There are a bunch of non luxury cars that are faster then luxury cars but its not in its class. (mustang V6 vs 328i coupe)

Audi a4 praises their car has the best MPG IN ITS CLASS. im sure a camry V6 is not in the audis class.

camry weighs 300-400 pounds less, has less HP. Its only natural it would be faster. Im sure audi knows that too, but its not in its class. compare a camry to an accord(sonata, jetta etc.) and an A4 to a C class or 3 series.
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      01-21-2012, 11:05 PM   #29
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Great thing about free will: you can choose. Don't want a BMW turbo car? buy a CPO e9x 328i (or a Camry V6). No one is forcing anything on you.
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      01-21-2012, 11:19 PM   #30
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i feel like N/A people are only afraid of turbo lag, but times have changed and turbo lag is very minimal. If your worried about that just get anti-lag and have full boost all the time lmao
It's not that you arrogant prick. It's the experience that a NA engine gives you. There is something different about it. Why do you think the E30 M3 is considered one of the best driving cars? One of the many, many, many reasons is that it is NA. BMW could have made it FI if they wanted. Many other cars from that period were turbo'd.
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      01-21-2012, 11:24 PM   #31
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You know, for me, it isn't so much about the "feel" or the choices, it is about chance and reliability. I currently have a 328xi E92 coupe. Yes I feel it is underpowered at times and even a pig other times with that xi drivetrain. Would I love a 335? You bet.
Would I love an F30 come August (lease is up)? Possibly.
Why am I conflicted? Because my 328 has never been in the shop in the nearly three years I have had it for any engine related or mechanical issues, save some temperamental seatbelt assist arms and a leaking washer fluid reservoir.
This is why I am conflicted about the future, my very near future. Will I give up a pretty solid N/A car that has been practically zero headaches for a turbo that will be in the shop more than on the road thanks to HPFP, waste gate rattles, and blown turbos? Or will I be one of the lucky ones who have had "zero issues" with their N54/ N55 BMWs?
Then we have the up and coming N20 engine, whose predictability is about as predictable as the future itself.
So in the end, if I knew going in BMW could build a solid turbo assisted engine like a gazillion other car manufacturers seem to have no problem doing, I'd be in- lock, stock, and barrel.
As far as feel and emotional pooh poohing about choice and experience, I could give a shit- it's not a condom, it's a car.

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      01-21-2012, 11:30 PM   #32
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It's emission standards only. Same reason THEY are being forced to make a liquid cooled version of their boxer motors in their bikes that has been air/oil cooled since 1923. It's not their doing. It's what they must do to keep within their class and euro emiss standards. Just like euro pedestrian impact standards changed the way cars look, same will go for the way they perform.
-Cheers
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      01-21-2012, 11:36 PM   #33
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I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!!

Make more than 3 engines available for the US market. How brilliant. They could have a 320d and 330d instead of just the 335d. They could also bring the 330 (NA) over from Europe as a mid range engine between the N20 328 and the N55 335. What a wonderful idea.
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      01-21-2012, 11:37 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by SDeFranco1 View Post
You know, for me, it isn't so much about the "feel" or the choices, it is about reliability. I currently have a 328xi E92 coupe. Yes I feel it is underpowered at times and even a pig other times with that xi drivetrain. Would I love a 335? You bet.
Would I love an F30 come August (lease is up)? Possibly.
Why am I conflicted? Because my 328 has never been in the shop in the nearly three years I have had it for any engine related or mechanical issues, save some temperamental seatbelt assist arms and a leaking washer fluid reservoir.
This is why I am conflicted about the future, my very near future. Will I give up a pretty solid N/A car that has been practically zero headaches for a turbo that will be in the shop more than on the road thanks to HPFP, waste gate rattles, and blown turbos? Or will I be one of the lucky ones who have had "zero issues" with their N54/ N55 BMWs?
Then we have the up and coming N20 engine, whose predictability is about as predictable as the future itself.
So in the end, if I knew going in BMW could build a solid turbo assisted engine like a gazillion other car manufacturers seem to have no problem doing, I'd be in- lock, stock, and barrel.
As far as feel and emotional pooh poohing about choice and experience, I could give a shit- it's not a condom, it's a car.
At this point no way to know. I have owned turbo'd Saabs, Volvos, VWs, and Peugeots. Probably at least 500-600K total across all of them and I have never had a single turbo related issue other than I bought a Saab convertible where the owner had intentionally backed off the boost. For whatever reason BMW screwed the pooch on the N54. Hopefully they have learned something and the N20 is better. What are we hearing from the 5-series drivers? Doesn't the 528i already have that motor?

I came from a 2.0T Saab to my N52 328iT. The motors are very comparable, the Saab had more torque, the BMW more horsepower but you have to rev it to get it. I like them about the same, though the BMW sounds a little better. Nothing in for smoothness once off idle, the Saab balance shafted motor spun just as smoothly as the six. And not THAT much different at idle.

For the tuner boys though, nothing in it. For $1000 you could easily add 80-100 reliable horsepower to the Saab, to do that to the BMW I would need to sell it and get a 335i. And lose the reliability.

So let's lay off the 'I'll never buy another BMW' talk until the car hits the market and we see how it goes, both literally and figuratively. Oh, and by the way everybody has said exactly the same stuff about every new generation of BMWs all the way back to the 2002.

And get used to it, because EVERYTHING is going to be turbocharged eventually, it just makes sense. From the manufacturer's point of view, a turbocharger is the closest thing to a free lunch that exists in the engineering world.
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      01-21-2012, 11:38 PM   #35
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Well said Rhodes.
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      01-21-2012, 11:39 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndog14 View Post
I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!!

Make more than 3 engines available for the US market. How brilliant. They could have a 320d and 330d instead of just the 335d. They could also bring the 330 (NA) over from Europe as a mid range engine between the N20 328 and the N55 335. What a wonderful idea.
Yup! So sad that we don't have some of the gems that many others
take for granted "over there."
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      01-21-2012, 11:39 PM   #37
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BTW, you cannot get an F30 in Titanium silver.

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      01-21-2012, 11:47 PM   #38
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I want to see the look on the hating NA owners faces once they get blasted by a "4cyl 328i" from a stop light. Or any speed for that matter.
Not gonna happen a 6cyl 328i would lose though.
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      01-21-2012, 11:48 PM   #39
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Quote:
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BTW, you cannot get an F30 in Titanium silver.

Yea, I hear they "retired" many colors and created many others in the upcoming F30.
I would think there would be a similar color though- maybe even one you like better!
I see TiAG is pretty popular around here. I have Space Grey metallic myself.
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      01-21-2012, 11:50 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ndog14 View Post
I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!!

Make more than 3 engines available for the US market. How brilliant. They could have a 320d and 330d instead of just the 335d. They could also bring the 330 (NA) over from Europe as a mid range engine between the N20 328 and the N55 335. What a wonderful idea.
You willing to pay for it? The US has absolutely ridiculous Federalization certification requirements. Every engine and body style combination has to be tested seperately. HUGE money. So we get only what is deemed 'most popular' here. And then the marketing idiots get involved, lest they sully the 'BMW Image'. I would love to have an e91 320D, but the certification costs vs. the number they would sell here would mean it would probably cost $150K.

So you need to blame our fabulous Government for this one, not BMW. No reason we could not harmonize our laws with Europes (and Japans for that matter), our emissions and safety standards are all but the same at this point. But the cost of PROVING it is outrageous.
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      01-21-2012, 11:51 PM   #41
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It's not that you arrogant prick. It's the experience that a NA engine gives you. There is something different about it. Why do you think the E30 M3 is considered one of the best driving cars? One of the many, many, many reasons is that it is NA. BMW could have made it FI if they wanted. Many other cars from that period were turbo'd.
LOL angry 328 owner... as usual!!!!!

talk all about your N/A motor, but you will never be fast (unless you BOOST it) see what im saying?

FOR THAT TIME yes the e30 M3 was amazing, but it was the first M car, M's are more then about the engine.... plus BMW hasnt made a turbo engine until the N54. You act like if they threw a turbo in there it would suck. Its like arguing why put automatics in M's. Get over it!!!!!

Look how many AMAZING turbo cars their are and how they actually propelled in performance. most cars that are N/A, and modding communities, know that if they want to mod their car for HP, throwing a supercharger or turbo is the answer. built motor set-ups usually cost more then a turbo kit.

Its about preference, why is bmw forces turbos upon us? Does it make sense to make a V8-V10 which is heavier, uses more gas, and similar hp then a turbo I6?

have you had a turbo car?

Why do you think 335i owners are so "arrogant" and are "pricks" basically throwing a turbo(s) makes it into a much faster car while retaining good MPG. We only lose in reliability (bmws fault)

335i and the e46 M3's have an identical 0-60 time or better. While the 335i weighs more and has less HP. How is that possible? Turbo(s)
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      01-21-2012, 11:57 PM   #42
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LOL angry 328 owner... as usual!!!!!

talk all about your N/A motor, but you will never be fast (unless you BOOST it) see what im saying?

FOR THAT TIME yes the e30 M3 was amazing, but it was the first M car, M's are more then about the engine.... plus BMW hasnt made a turbo engine until the N54. You act like if they threw a turbo in there it would suck. Its like arguing why put automatics in M's. Get over it!!!!!

Look how many AMAZING turbo cars their are and how they actually propelled in performance. most cars that are N/A, and modding communities, know that if they want to mod their car for HP, throwing a supercharger or turbo is the answer. built motor set-ups usually cost more then a turbo kit.

Its about preference, why is bmw forces turbos upon us? Does it make sense to make a V8-V10 which is heavier, uses more gas, and similar hp then a turbo I6?

have you had a turbo car?

Why do you think 335i owners are so "arrogant" and are "pricks" basically throwing a turbo(s) makes it into a much faster car while retaining good MPG. We only lose in reliability (bmws fault)

335i and the e46 M3's have an identical 0-60 time or better. While the 335i weighs more and has less HP. How is that possible? Turbo(s)

Chevy LS3 V8 in the C6 Corvette. 6.2L V8, 430hp, top speed of 190 (weight and aerodynamics), 0-60 4.2 sec. And it gets 25 hwy mpg. It's NA.
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      01-21-2012, 11:58 PM   #43
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Not gonna happen a 6cyl 328i would lose though.
A 2013 328i will do a 14 second quarter. (stock)

Then they spend $300 on a tune.
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      01-21-2012, 11:58 PM   #44
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You willing to pay for it? The US has absolutely ridiculous Federalization certification requirements. Every engine and body style combination has to be tested seperately. HUGE money. So we get only what is deemed 'most popular' here. And then the marketing idiots get involved, lest they sully the 'BMW Image'. I would love to have an e91 320D, but the certification costs vs. the number they would sell here would mean it would probably cost $150K.

So you need to blame our fabulous Government for this one, not BMW. No reason we could not harmonize our laws with Europes (and Japans for that matter), our emissions and safety standards are all but the same at this point. But the cost of PROVING it is outrageous.
I would pay for the 330, but the way you put it for the price I'll get a Porsche 911 instead.
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