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      01-21-2012, 03:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Coming from another boosted car which was modded.. its a far cry taking an existing boosted platform and tweaking it..as opposed to taking an N/A application and boosting it from scratch
Who disagrees with your assertion about OEM vs. heavily modified, when it comes to reliabilty or longetivity? Why are you trying to make a point about something that 100% of the people on this forum are in agreement with you on?

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Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
The stats for the number of SCs and engine failures or lack thereof, while interesting doesnt tell ANYTHING about whats going on inside these motors.
Of course it tells us something, it may not just be up to your standards, which seem to be impossible to meet, you want absolute certainty it seems, not possible and no one here has infered that it is.

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Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Until someone takes a factory N/A motor w/ X miles and a SC engine with equal mileage, opens them up and puts them side by side you will never truly no what boosting these engines really does to it.
NOT TRUE in the least, you do not need a stock motor to compare components to see what's going on, lmao, are you serious? Any REAL engine expert, or one who does failure analysis, with years of experience can tell what's going on without seeing a stock engine with the same amount of miles sitting next to it.

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Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
As far as being able to just look and see..oh so and so engine component "looks" strong therefore its ok to boost..well..that is hubris..without real world empirical data, testing and tear-down inspection...its all speculation.
There is real world empirical data and tear down inspection, your standards are not reasonable and not needed, also no one here is speaking with absolute certainty on anything, but we certainly aren't simply speculating without data to back it up.
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      01-21-2012, 03:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Who would argue against your basic statement that leaving it stock would ensure longevity over heavily modified?

Based on what we currently know, I stated a FI failure is unlikely as long as you are adhering to the specifics I listed, it wasn't about longevity, how long are we talking here? ESS has had kits with 50 to near 100K miles on the stock motor and sold 350 supechargers worldwide with no documented failures, does that kind of info register with you, or were you not aware of it?
Looks like ESS has a better reliability record than even stock engines.
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      01-21-2012, 03:39 PM   #25
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Thats fine..you let your car die your way..I let my car die mine.

Good luck fellas.
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      01-21-2012, 03:50 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Looks like ESS has a better reliability record than even stock engines.
Until I see a documented case here or somewhere else, it appears that is the case, doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. Last time I checked, Switzer has sold plenty of products, turbo upgrades for their GTR's on stock engines, that add ALOT more WHP/TQ than stock, no documented failures yet, so it appears they have a better record than stock GTR engines as well.

As far as stock vs ESS we are comparing 350 units vs tens of thousands and are all the NA cars that failed really stock? Don't know, no one does, but out of tens of thousands of M3's sold, there has been a minimal amount failures vs. the # sold, and some of those failures happened with very little miles.
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq

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      01-21-2012, 03:58 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Thats fine..you let your car die your way..I let my car die mine.

Good luck fellas.
I've already had an engine die, not fun. But two things we can agree on, there are no certainties, and yes you have a far better chance for reliability and longevity if you leave your car stock.
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08 E92 M3 DCT - Bolt Ons - 60-130MPH 10.71s - 11.88 @ 118MPH - 377WHP
ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq

Last edited by DLSJ5; 01-21-2012 at 04:06 PM.
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      01-21-2012, 04:16 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Until I see a documented case here or somewhere else, it appears that is the case, doens't mean it can't or won't happen. Last time I checked, Switzer has sold plenty of products, turbo upgrades for their GTR's on stock engines, that add ALOT more WHP/TQ than stock, no documented failures yet, while other companies have, so it appears they have a better record than stock GTR engines as well.

As far as stock vs ESS we are comparing 350 units vs tens of thousands and are all the NA cars that failed really stock? Don't know, no one does, but out of tens of thousands of M3's sold, there has been a minimal amount failures vs. the # sold, and some of those failures happened with very little miles.
Is it a stretch to think that one of those stock M3's that had an engine failure could've showed up at any one of the tuner's shop?
Think of it like the lottery not everybody end up with the winning numbers,in this case a bad engine.

AA has only one documented case of an engine failure with a strapped AA's sc on,that's not bad.

On the other hand what I find troubling about AA,is the fact that they tried to mislead,misinform the forum...I mean if you have nothing to hide,why do that?
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      01-21-2012, 04:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
Is it a stretch to think that one of those stock M3's that had an engine failure could've showed up at any one of the tuner's shop?
Think of it like the lottery not everybody end up with the winning numbers,in this case a bad engine.

AA has only one documented case of an engine failure with a strapped AA's sc on,that's not bad.

On the other hand what I find troubling about AA,is the fact that they tried to mislead,misinform the forum...I mean if you have nothing to hide,why do that?
Certainly possible and it's possible that an S65 ESS car may have had a problem but so far I haven't seen it documented on the forums. The vast majority do not supercharge their M3's. One could suggest it was luck but in the law or probabilities I'd say it's also attributed to how well their kit performs and how reliable to date it seems to be. The S65 is at the end of it's production run the new M3 will soon be here, NOTHING yet from BMW about a serious problem, all we have is the crank bearing part # change after 2008, along with some documented failures and heresay. I think both sides may have it wrong, to say there is absolutely no problem, is incorrect, but to say it's a widespread BMW issue I see no proof either.

Not sure on the AA thing, haven't been reading it closely enough, it's a tough situation for both parties, from what I have read, it does seem to have plenty of conjecture and knee jerk reactions you can get in those type of threads.
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ESS VT2-625 SC 60-130MPH 6.80s - 11.30 @ 129.3 MPH 586WHP / 379WTQ
ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq

Last edited by DLSJ5; 01-21-2012 at 04:58 PM.
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      01-21-2012, 05:09 PM   #30
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damn whats up with all these threads?
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      01-21-2012, 05:13 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf-Dieter View Post
Here is the video

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=635377

I have to laugh when he refers to "lack of lubrication" several times in this video clip. In my humble opinion (and I have made many failure analyses in my working life) this is a massive engine failure some of the bearing wear is a result of the failure and other wear is quite normal and expected wear.

If they would have left this engine alone to begin with "in stock condition" then they would not be looking at this mechanical engine failure.

Lets face it ... if you modify your engine you can expect it to fail and if it does be prepared to pay the bill.

So why not get what you seek in the first place and leave it "Stock" ... I guess some people have to keep the high performance shops in business
No doubt Rolf..... I haven't actually said it publicly yet because I was waiting for someone else to point that out, but I too laughed really hard when I saw that video.

When I clicked on the video I was hoping for some facts and figures, like stress loads, bearing clearances, states of lubrication occurring within on the bearings and their method of correcting these issues.

The video had no factual or useful information in it at all. Anyone who knows anything at all about engines knows that the video was a joke and didn't reveal anything. And furthermore, if the rod had seized onto the crankshaft the big end would have been extremely discoloured from the heat and it would mot have still been perfectly straight like that. To me it looks like the big end was simply unbolted from the crank after the failure!
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      01-21-2012, 05:16 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Certainly possible and it's possible that an S65 ESS car may have had a problem but so far I haven't seen it. The vast majority do not supercharge their M3's. One could suggest it was luck but in the law or probabilities I'd say it's also attributed to how well their kit performs and how reliable to date it seems to be. The S65 is at the end of it's production run the new M3 will soon be here, NOTHING yet from BMW about a serious problem, all we have is the crank bearing part # change after 2008, along with some documented failures and heresay. I think both sides may have it wrong, to say there is absolutely no problem, is incorrect, but to say it's a widespread BMW issue I see no proof either.

Not sure on the AA thing, haven't been reading it closely enough, it's a tough situation for both parties, from what I have read, it does seem to have plenty of conjecture and knee jerk reactions you can get in those type of threads.
Just speculating,could it be maybe a slightly unbalanced crankshaft doin this? On a high revving it's even less forgivin even some M3's with the new crank bearings developed the ticking noise.

If the crank bearings were bad ,wouldn't all of them show excessive and uneven wear?
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      01-21-2012, 05:18 PM   #33
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that motor lacked oil with bearings looking like that or at some point lacked oil and was run hard and it was just a matter of time before it let it let go .
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      01-21-2012, 05:37 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33
that motor lacked oil with bearings looking like that or at some point lacked oil and was run hard and it was just a matter of time before it let it let go .
The bearings in Paul Walkers car actually didn't do too bad considering it was tracked forr two years. The wear wasn't due to the lack of lubrication, it most likely was from continuous use in a boundary lubrication condition due to the excessive loads that were put on the engine over two seasons of racing.
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      01-21-2012, 06:26 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
No doubt Rolf..... I haven't actually said it publicly yet because I was waiting for someone else to point that out, but I too laughed really hard when I saw that video.

When I clicked on the video I was hoping for some facts and figures, like stress loads, bearing clearances, states of lubrication occurring within on the bearings and their method of correcting these issues.

The video had no factual or useful information in it at all. Anyone who knows anything at all about engines knows that the video was a joke and didn't reveal anything. And furthermore, if the rod had seized onto the crankshaft the big end would have been extremely discoloured from the heat and it would mot have still been perfectly straight like that. To me it looks like the big end was simply unbolted from the crank after the failure!
It certainly had nothing whatsoever to do with lack lubrication as the video presenter likes us to believe. The more likely cause of the bearing uneven wear was a direct result of the rod / engine failure.

Further I find it hard to believe that a car/engine that has been tracked for it's performance and seen track time would not be operated responsible with the very basic eye on oil level and proper warming from cold starts to normal running / performance run exposure.

I think this has just been a engine mod gone bad ... for the video presenter to use the term "failures with some of those engines" is just not justifiable and puts the fear into people that are not as experienced about those issues as some of us here have.

A further incorrect example is when the video presenter points out the bearing shell sliding radially and axial in the rod bearing retainer. The shell bearings are manufactured with anti-rotation notches at the half joint that lock the bearing shell into the rod bearing retainer. The anti-rotation notch most likely broke off and that is why he could slide the shell radially and axially. In fact when he shows us the same retainer and bearing shell from the opposite bank he could not slide the shell in the same as before since the anti-rotation notch was obviously in tact.

Yes indeed the video is a joke since it does not present anything about the failure other then well organized engine parts on a table.
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      01-21-2012, 06:34 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolf-Dieter
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
No doubt Rolf..... I haven't actually said it publicly yet because I was waiting for someone else to point that out, but I too laughed really hard when I saw that video.

When I clicked on the video I was hoping for some facts and figures, like stress loads, bearing clearances, states of lubrication occurring within on the bearings and their method of correcting these issues.

The video had no factual or useful information in it at all. Anyone who knows anything at all about engines knows that the video was a joke and didn't reveal anything. And furthermore, if the rod had seized onto the crankshaft the big end would have been extremely discoloured from the heat and it would mot have still been perfectly straight like that. To me it looks like the big end was simply unbolted from the crank after the failure!
It certainly had nothing whatsoever to do with lack lubrication as the video presenter likes us to believe. The more likely cause of the bearing uneven wear was a direct result of the rod / engine failure.

Further I find it hard to believe that a car/engine that has been tracked for it's performance and seen track time would not be operated responsible with the very basic eye on oil level and proper warming from cold starts to normal running / performance run exposure.

I think this has just been a engine mod gone bad ... for the video presenter to use the term "failures with some of those engines" is just not justifiable and puts the fear into people that are not as experienced about those issues as some of us here have.

A further incorrect example is when the video presenter points out the bearing shell sliding radially and axial in the rod bearing retainer. The shell bearings are manufactured with anti-rotation notches at the half joint that lock the bearing shell into the rod bearing retainer. The anti-rotation notch most likely broke off and that is why he could slide the shell radially and axially. In fact when he shows us the same retainer and bearing shell from the opposite bank he could not slide the shell in the same as before since the anti-rotation notch was obviously in tact.

Yes indeed the video is a joke since it does not present anything about the failure other then well organized engine parts on a table.
Thanks for posting Rolf..... It is nice to have someone else on here that has some expertise and real world experience.

You are right about the engine parts though, they sure were laid out nice
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