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      01-18-2012, 02:28 PM   #89
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I am not convinced there is a cylinder head issue, and can't see how it would cause a catastrophic failure of this nature.

Even when an engine drops a valve the cylinder is "usually" not harmed too extensively and can be repaired in "most cases". If Evolve had claimed there was a bottom end problem I would believe it.

I think myself and others have discussed what the "problem" is in the bottom end...... Oil Clearances that are too tight on the main and rod bearings. I think a machining issue on the bottom end could explain why it is always #5. Since these engines are mass produced, a common issue could be attributed to a flaw in a casting or machine work.

Even if it is an issue with a head, someone please explain to me how it is causing a rod to go through the side of the block?!

I do respect Evolve and I feel they make some great parts for our cars, however, it is hard to respect a company that comes on to a forum and says that there is an issue yet gives no explanation what causes it and what the actual problem is.
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      01-18-2012, 02:48 PM   #90
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+1
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      01-18-2012, 02:50 PM   #91
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you put a supercharger in .. engine blows up... how is that a warranty or a sueprcharger vendor issue? .. i thought once you do this your warranty is out the window anyway.. if you put a supercharger in, you'd better be prepared for something like this..
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      01-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #92
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Comment fail.
Hahah, my sentiments exactly.

wootwoot, did you bother to read ANY of the OP's first post?
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      01-18-2012, 03:43 PM   #93
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This is such bullshit I dont even know where to begin. What exactly are you insinuating? That tuners need to publish legal disclaimers and turn their websites into goddamn CIALIS® commercials to make you feel comfortable?

Here's the bottom line for all...Don't mod your car if you know nothing about cars. You can't increase HP 50% on a stock motor and expect everything to be just like you drove it off the dealers lot forever. Problems are inevitable and if you have no understanding to recognize it, they're only compounded.
As for this cylinder 5 thing...Just like the bearing issue, I need more info before I accept this as fact.

The phrase of the day is an oldie but goodie....."Chrome don't get you home."
+1 to the bolded part. Best bit of info here.

Everyone wants stuff spoonfed to them and they want to be coddled.

Learn how to do stuff on your own, or at least how to recognize the possible flaws and downsides of doing something. Then, as an adult, you can make an educated decision on whether to assume that risk or not.

If you don't know shit about it, don't do it, or don't get pissed off when something goes wrong. Well, you can be pissed, but at least be pissed at yourself for doing it wrong.

Sucks what happened to the OP, but yea...
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      01-18-2012, 03:56 PM   #94
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To address the allegations laid against us by Jordan Russ of Import Motor Werks, formerly M Powerered Automotive, please see as follows:

Jordan purchased a Level 2 SC kit for his E92 M3 from Active Autowerke, it was installed at our facility in August, 2010, mileage 24,345. In October, 2010; approximately 6-7 weeks after, we were informed that his engine blew . We immediately requested pictures of spark plugs, etc., and also to look at the ECU as this will also provide information on what went wrong; all were provided along with the request from Jordan to return the ECU to stock.

Real evidence lies within the stored ‘Shadow Memory’ of the ECU. Active Autowerke never suggested that Jordan take his car to BMW to claim any kind of warranty, as we know it would be a useless claim because the shadow memory would be checked and the data would show cause of engine failure. Here were our findings when we viewed his ECU:

The Maximum engine speed recorded indicated 8705+ RPM when the factory rev limiter is set to 8300, and Active Autowerke clearly set the rev limiter to 8100RPM for the supercharged cars.

He was not at 6000 RPM when the engine failed.

The throttle position showed 36% opening and not 100% opening when the engine failed, this would indicate that the engine most likely was in a deceleration mode. Active suspects a driver mis-shift going from 4th to 5th gear and hitting 3rd by mistake. Why? Because the road speed at the time with the 36% throttle opening indicated a 207 KM/hr speed (128 MPH). If the supercharger created excessive load on the engine to break the connecting rod, the shadow memory would most likely indicate that the throttle would be closer to 100% opening where the maximum supercharged power is developed.

He claimed that his car was pushed on the dyno to 190+ MPH, the gearing on this vehicle makes it impossible for this to happen; it allows for maybe 183-185 MPH at 8150 RPM, this is the rev limit that was set by Active to the SC. In addition, Active Autowerke’s Mustang dyno does not allow for road speeds above 160 MPH.

He said he drove the vehicle for only 1,200 miles, the recorded mileage in his ECU was 26,183 (42231 KM); therefore 26,183 less 24,345 = 1,838 miles driven after the SC install. If the SC system was the problem, damage should have occurred within 200 miles and not after 1,800 miles.

All his spark plugs showed that the engine had no problems with any kind of improper tuning that would lead to “meltdown” due to lean mixtures or improper ignition timing, also, the pistons were not overheated due to ‘meltdown’, ‘meltdown’ is indicative of poor tuning, too low a fuel octane number, lean fuel mixtures..

The engine connecting rod that failed clearly showed that it was still free to move on the crank pin journal, it was also free to move on the small end where it is attached to the piston; this was confirmed by Jordan when he was asked, his pictures also supported this. This verifies that lubrication was sufficient and the failure was not due to the connecting rod “seizing” against the crankshaft rod journal.

There was no evidence of valves floating or broken due to contact with the piston of the damaged cylinder.

In summary, E9X M3’s equipped with Active Autowerke’s Level 2 SC have run on the race tracks for driving and racing events, of which there has been no engine failures. Dan Schaut ran his 2008 BMW M3 equipped with the Active Autowerke Level 2 SC system in the 2011 One Lap of America event placing 1st in his class. In this race, cars are subjected to maximum use of power under the most rigorous condition for 7 consecutive days and covering over ~~4,000 miles of road and track. The E9X Active Autowerke supercharger system in Level 2 configuration has with stood the test of maximum reliability and at the same time delivering maximum performance under rigorous conditions and has shown that our SC system is well engineered and manufactured.

In conclusion, Senior Technician, ‘Scrappy’ and Technical Director, Karl, in looking at the recorded data in the “Shadow Memory” of the engine’s ECU along with all of the stated observations, have concluded that the damage done to the engine was due to “driver’s error.”

After no determination was shown for fault due to the SC system, an agreement was made for reimbursement for the cost of the system. Evidence of this reflected in the fact that both Import Motor Werks and Active Autowerke have mutually enjoyed a year of business relations. Recently Jordan emailed and demanded us to pay $25,000 or he would go to the forums. Although sympathetic to his loss as no one ever wants to ever have to pay for a broken motor, Active Autowerke cannot accept liability for damages it did not incur.

Active Autowerke is a reputable BMW tuner and is now in its 31st year of business. We have sold innumerable forced inductions kits since 1995 and have always stood by our products.

Last edited by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke; 01-18-2012 at 04:07 PM.
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      01-18-2012, 04:00 PM   #95
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...sucks this happened, but as an interested SC buyer myself, I would work with the shop as much as possible before posting all this 'informational stuff.' Even then, if the shop wasn't willing to work with me for whatever reason, I would seek advice of counsel to see if I have a claim or not. Just saying. Posting stuff for 'informational' purposes disguised as, those Mferz didn't help me now I'm gonna put it out there when I shouldn't of gone 198mph in the first place but no one will find out...wait, unless the shit blows up for whatever reason and I was convinced into returning everything to stock to then ask BMW how this could happen to a stock motor, only to be told record shows 198mph, sorry charlie.....[CASE DENIED].... Turn trix and make the $25k back, and try another kit. [THIS MESSAGE WAS NOT INTENDED TO HARM TO CALL END USER ERROR]
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      01-18-2012, 04:01 PM   #96
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All the time, I read about members of BMW forums who mod cars that are leased or under warranty and remove the mods for servicing or repair or lease return. People put in different air filters, x-pipes, pulleys, tunes, supensions, etc. and then remove them. Why is that so different from taking off a supercharger in order to make a warranty claim when the belief, right or wrong but unproven either way, is that the supercharger kit was not responsible for the failure?
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      01-18-2012, 04:06 PM   #97
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Thank you Andrew!
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      01-18-2012, 04:07 PM   #98
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Wow.
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      01-18-2012, 04:13 PM   #99
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      01-18-2012, 05:22 PM   #100
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It sounds like the OP didn't follow AA's instructions...

Was the car in question an E90 M3 or E92 M3? Not that it would make a difference.

Also if you mis shift from 4th into 3rd where would the rpm end up?
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      01-18-2012, 05:23 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I guess this proves that Gintani went over and above the norm by covering the cost for Drew's engine. No matter what a person thinks about Gintani's parts, what they did in that case was definitely a good gesture on their behalf!

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+1 Gintani guys are a class act. Maybe supercharging and increasing the Redline on a engine that's marginally lubricated(bearings) for high rpm ops in stock form under extreme conditions(track) is a bad idea. Maybe lowering the redline might help the rod bearing lubrification...
My situation was different, I had an agreement with Gintani prior to the Supercharger being installed that they would cover it if the engine blew. While it's rare, it's not unheard of for companies to assist with these type of failures, many at the very least offer free labor, or pay half of the damage, still I feel very lucky that I was able to recoup much of the loss, BUT it was the agreement we made, no special favors after the fact were done in my case.

Having said that it wasn't that simple, my situation was a nightmare at times, the car sat for 7 months (3 were part of the shipping problems), there were no motors to be found in the US. However, I found a used motor myself in Europe the first week of the failure, not new, for a mere 10K. They felt we should find one in the States, months passed and the back and forth discussions about the costs and the location were to purchase the motor were not going smoothly, it felt as if nothing was happening. They said 10K was too much, we'll find one cheaper one here in the US, more time passed and I said enough, I'll pay half of this used motor and Gintani would pay the other half, they agreed to the NEW terms on a USED motor. So I paid for the motor, shipping and arranged all of it. Eventually Gintani paid me back the other half, I appreciate that, and in the end agreed to buy back the kit as long as they got to keep the blown motor, fair enough. But remember I also made 7-8K in payments on a car that sat for months and 1.5K on a new car lease so I could get to work. When I picked the car up, there were problems as well, things were not done properly and I had to pay for those things to be fixed, but I had my car back and a working engine, and was thankful for that.

Although not out of pocket nearly as much as the OP, it was not without some financial loss and I received quite the unwarranted bashing on another forum from a huge Gintani fanboy and a few other people, which involved completely fabricated stories, about me, my family and a particular lie about why the car failed, so it was not just some simple transaction in my case, and when I installed the ESS kit, more fabricated stories were posted, the speculation and lies still continued even through my recent build.

That's behind me though, I've moved on, Gintani and I are now on good terms and I do wish them the best. Having said that I will accept Gintani's recent video with regards to my motor failure as an admittance that what their tuner at the time claimed I did, was false and for me there are no hard feelings. Most of what I just said has been posted before in some way or another, but needed to be said here as well for some clarification.

With regards to the OP's car, he stated that the Rod moved freely on the crank, so it may have not have been a bearing issue. But as I said in my failure thread, the damage does look very similar to what happened to my car, as it broke/threw a rod/piston too, although mine had 10K+ on the SC'r and around 23K miles on the motor itself when it blew, and a handful of documented things happened before the failure, the OP only had 1.5K Supercharged miles.

While no doubt several documented Supercharged cars have failed on one forum or another, not all of them had bearing issues and none of them to date have been ESS cars, which by and far has sold more kits than all the other companies combined, 300 to date I was told, that's a pretty good #, one might think some of these failures on stock motors could be tune related as well?

Sal@Evolve is now bringing up a handful of stock cars having cylinder #5 issues? Where? Are they all in the UK? No offense Sal but you're the same tuner who said over a year ago that simply running meth will blow your S65, based on the ion knock control, yet you NEVER proved this to be true. I'd say there's a little too much hysteria going on here, currently there is no strong evidence that the S65 has the same problem the S54 did, the S65 is almost at the end of it's production run, and there is nothing from BMW about either of these issues, and there's certainly been nothing posted to date here about cylinder #5 blowing up, if there is, then show us.

OP - Can we get more specific info? Is it possible that we can see more pics of the damage? Pictures of the bearings, etc. How many miles did the car have on it before the SC'r? What did BMW say caused the failure?
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      01-18-2012, 05:40 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US///M3 View Post
It sounds like the OP didn't follow AA's instructions...

Was the car in question an E90 M3 or E92 M3? Not that it would make a difference.

Also if you mis shift from 4th into 3rd where would the rpm end up?
E90 per the thread title and first line of initial post.

your question really depends on what speed/rpm you were at when you missed the shift
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      01-18-2012, 05:43 PM   #103
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Jordan,

Can You please post a copy of the work order from BMW stating your warranty was denied for 198 mph speedometer reading.
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      01-18-2012, 05:45 PM   #104
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Andrew @ AA, thanks for being brave enough to jump in the shark tank and present your response. I hope it will calm down all the people with hairtrigger judgements as it is a much more plausible version of events. I noticed that you haven't really dealt with the "defrauding BMW" issue, aside from saying that you reset the ECU on OP's request. Would you be able to make a more categorical statement with respect to OP's allegation that you suggested and participated in this plot?
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      01-18-2012, 05:49 PM   #105
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lol revving that high when the redline by active is set a 8100 deff a big no no. What do you expect when you over rev an engine stock or boost. Lol at the Ess advertisement
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      01-18-2012, 05:52 PM   #106
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lol revving that high when the redline by active is set a 8100 deff a big no no. What do you expect when you over rev an engine stock or boost.
True but we would need to see some proof that the OP changed the tuning to allow the higher rev limit as suggested by Active. Otherwise, as far as we know, Active could have upped the rev limit when they did the tune.
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      01-18-2012, 05:55 PM   #107
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True but we would need to see some proof that the OP changed the tuning to allow the higher rev limit as suggested by Active. Otherwise, as far as we know, Active could have upped the rev limit when they did the tune.
You dont need to adjust the tune to hit that rpm. Just over rev on the down shift
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      01-18-2012, 06:02 PM   #108
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Quote:
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Andrew @ AA, thanks for being brave enough to jump in the shark tank and present your response. I hope it will calm down all the people with hairtrigger judgements as it is a much more plausible version of events. I noticed that you haven't really dealt with the "defrauding BMW" issue, aside from saying that you reset the ECU on OP's request. Would you be able to make a more categorical statement with respect to OP's allegation that you suggested and participated in this plot?
From My explanation Above.

Real evidence lies within the stored ‘Shadow Memory’ of the ECU. Active Autowerke never suggested that Jordan take his car to BMW to claim any kind of warranty, as we know it would be a useless claim because the shadow memory would be checked and the data would show cause of engine failure. Here were our findings when we viewed his ECU:
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      01-18-2012, 06:05 PM   #109
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^^^ Oops, my bad. That's what I get for following this thread while at work and doing 10 other things. Thanks, Andrew.
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      01-18-2012, 06:05 PM   #110
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In response to AA's reply to the thread:

Thanks for the thorough response! This is the type of info that is useful, not claims of cylinder head issues, lack of lubrication in the S65 engine etc.

To me when tuners try to point the finger at the OEM for a design flaw when an engine failure happens is just making excuses.

In my opinion any company worth it's salt will do adequate R&D followed by testing, testing and more testing before releasing a product to market! When that tuner feels that any shortcoming that they has been uncovered through their R&D and testing can be suitably and successfully rectified, only at that point should they release a modification to market!!! Since there are no laws governing performance enhancing aftermarket products, no manufacturer is forced to do this!

The terms and conditions on AA's site are clean and cut, and basically state: The purchaser buys and installs AA's parts at their own risk and, liability is limited to the purchase price of the product for one year from the date of purchase!

I still believe strongly that people should wake up and smell the roses and realize that any time you increase the power density of an engine without strengthening the original design to handle it, the life of that engine is decreased as well.

One final note, in all cases there are three sides to every story; my side, your side, and the right side! I knew that there was more to this story than the OP had originally posted. I am also sure that although AA is not trying to deceive anyone, there are probably small details that the they have left out too. Since they came with facts, I will side on their story as the more correct account of the events. Honestly I feel that the OP has been in an ongoing battle with AA and after seeing the Gintani video thread take off he figured he would gain support from members here if he posted. Unfortunately for him it seems to have gone the other way!
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