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      01-20-2012, 01:05 AM   #243
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well, good night then



i think that this thread, while very informative, is a bit of a waste as each party will more than likely omit a few details that could incriminate them one way or the other... nothing against either party, but it's just the way it is...
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      01-20-2012, 01:05 AM   #244
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To answer your question the answer is no. We have not had any engine failures caused by our supercharger.

- Your ecu data suggests your over rev happened at 26,183 miles. We installed your supercharger at 24,345miles.

I wish you the best Jordan and I hope everything works out for you.
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      01-20-2012, 02:53 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3ryder55 View Post
So childish of Roman @ ESS to keep adding fuel to the fire
Im sorry you feel this way as the information I share is intended for the public so they can be educated on these topics. What this motor can and cannot handle when it comes to tuning and forced induction I feel deserves to be discussed openly as it effects all tuners. This thread started to develop a theam based on the belief that this motor cannot handle higher RPM's with boost and I felt that posting our findings thru long-term R&D and our knowledge of supercharging this motor can prove otherwise.
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      01-20-2012, 03:24 AM   #246
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So, the question is: "why did your engine fail?"

You are adamant that it was not a mechanical over-rev. However, there seems to be at least some evidence to support this theory.

What then is your diagnosis, and what is your supporting evidence?
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      01-20-2012, 07:23 AM   #247
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So childish of Roman @ ESS to keep adding fuel to the fire
It's a dog-eat-dog world.
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      01-20-2012, 07:32 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris s View Post
When i read AA's response i was a believer....then i read jordan's response and he sounds pretty believable and convincing as well. Then i asked myself...who has the most at stake here? Jordan is already out a significant amount of money out of pocket...and AA has zero obligation to cover any other costs, regardless of what some here think the 'right' thing to do would be. So...from that, i draw my own conclusions for now and await results from Mike's findings.

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So childish of Roman @ ESS to keep adding fuel to the fire
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      01-20-2012, 07:42 AM   #249
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So what now? Who's right and who's wrong?
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      01-20-2012, 08:11 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPoweredAuto View Post
When I get back into town I will do my best to answer any and all questions posted.

I think I asked a pretty valid question directly to Active though:

Have you had ANY other e9x M3's equipped with your supercharger fail at this time?

ACTIVE- where does the data say that RPM was recorded after the s/c was installed? Am I missing something?

I am not trying to attack Active, I am trying to bring the truth out no matter what you all might think. I have plenty of supporting facts to everything I have said and I will do my best to post them Sunday. I will also be working with Mike to get accurate data from the DME.

And just to let you all know, my car is paid for. My engine replacement, regardless of cost is paid for now too. I have nothing to lose or really gain at this point other than exposing a big error in an aftermarket tuners ethics.

Point fingers at me, I don't really care. I know what I have said and stated is factual. I will sleep soundly tonight. Thank you.

no one else has blown except you with a AA kit.
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      01-20-2012, 08:40 AM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
To answer your question the answer is no. We have not had any engine failures caused by our supercharger.

- Your ecu data suggests your over rev happened at 26,183 miles. We installed your supercharger at 24,345miles.
I wish you the best Jordan and I hope everything works out for you.
Is this a factual statement or a hypothesis? I've read through pages and pages of this thread and I could have sworn someone said the over rev could have happened at anytime i.e., there’s no correlation between the over rev and time, date, or mileage. If I’m incorrect, please show me how/where?

Btw, looking forward to Mike’s analysis which should put this sordid affair to bed.
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      01-20-2012, 09:09 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Im sorry you feel this way as the information I share is intended for the public so they can be educated on these topics. What this motor can and cannot handle when it comes to tuning and forced induction I feel deserves to be discussed openly as it effects all tuners. This thread started to develop a theam based on the belief that this motor cannot handle higher RPM's with boost and I felt that posting our findings thru long-term R&D and our knowledge of supercharging this motor can prove otherwise.
i think this is very good you are telling people what you think this motor can and can not do!!! we are getting a lot of different things told to all of us. could we please start a new post on this?
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      01-20-2012, 09:11 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPoweredAuto View Post
Hello all,

I want to say first and foremost thank you for awaiting my response to all questions/allegations etc.

Andrew @ Active- I respect your jumping into this fight for your company when you had nothing to do wih ANY of it when it occurred. I guess the truth is there are only a select few people who know exactly what transpired during this event on the side of AA. Unfortunately the people I dealt with on a weekly basis are no longer there, and I would not ask them to chime in on my behalf, so as not to burn their own bridges with AA. However, if for some reason they read this thread and want to give their unbiased side of the story while working at Active, I could only be happy, because they know the truth. Andrew, I don't believe we have ever had the pleasure to meet, but I spent a good amount of time with the designer of the s/c kit, Scrappy and have nothing but praises for him, his work ethic, and his talent. I always had nothing but respect for Active Autowerke, until everything happened and I was asked to please keep quiet. I was fully prepared to push your s/c kits on my customers and had several interested in pulling the trigger, until they saw what happened to my car and backed out. I invested a large portion of time and money to come down to Miami and bring 3 of my employees for 3 days while this kit was installed on our M3, in an effort to build a strong business relationship with AA. I even recently installed this same kit on a customers car, and warned him of possible issues.

This car had your performance software on it before the s/c was added, which based on what employees at AA and your website indicate, raised the RPM limiter. A "money shift" would bend valves and do damage to the head. There were no bent valves in this engine after disassembly, and as stated before- I have NEVER "money shifted" a car.

Andrew, are you saying that the RPM reading of 8705 was recorded in the shadow memory or are you calculating top speed to RPM's?
As for it being my idea to revert back to stock and take to BMW, you can rest assured I came to AA for help first. It was an owner at AA who said to me it wasn't their fault but sounds like a defect and they would suggest putting back to stock and taking to BMW. He knew that was not the right thing to do when suggesting it. I hate that you are being thrown into this, and I know you have an obligation to dispute everything I say because your boss is trying to protect AA's name and reputation, which I feel lately was built up a lot by it's sales staff-2 people in mind.

Now for the other questions,

Mike- yes I would entertain you pulling data from the car and posting up. I guarantee that an RPM of 8705 was not recorded at time/date of the incident. I also assure you that I was well under 100mph when this occurrd and if you can show that to everyone I would appreciate it.

Dishonest you say? The ONLY thing I was not 100% about was not telling BMW of prior mods. That's it. Period. End of discussion. Read reviews on my website, which should help build my character to strangers. I am not lying to anyone on this forum about my occurrence, and I am sure if the people involved came forward to vouch on my behalf it would prove that. However, I don't want any bridges burned on their end with AA because I feel it is not my place to drag others into this and harm relationships of theirs.

Mike- please email me so that I may get data sent to you. Mpoweredauto@yahoo.com

And for the record, I never modified the kit in any way, software or hardware.

And like I have stated from the very beginning, I am not talking poorly of AA as a whole, but a company is run by individuals. I will not be doing business with them or pushing their products anymore based off my personal experiences now. It is Unfortunate to say the least because I feel they do have a strong product line. It would be reassuring to know their warranty is good from preventing engines to blow as well. I guarantee I wouldn't have purchased a kit of this price had I thought it would make my engine fail in less than 30,000 miles.

I appreciate everyone's comments, questions, etc. And will do my best to answer any and all, but I am not glued to a computer 24/7 so it can take a little bit for me to read through and get responses, but I will do my best.
I find this interesting, so you guys are still doing business even with all these bad blood? And by doing business, I mean for you to be a distributor for AA and making money off their kits.
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      01-20-2012, 09:43 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3ryder55 View Post
So childish of Roman @ ESS to keep adding fuel to the fire
Ill come right out and say you my friend are a moron and if anyone is childish its YOU for this dumb ass comment. Roman came on here with some of the most informative info yet and he also said right off the bat that he does not even want to speculate why the motor blew. Bottom line is that ESS has supercharged more e9x's than anyone and they have done their homework. All Roman has been doing is trying to educate current and future SC owners and I think you owe him an apology.
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      01-20-2012, 09:56 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
Im sorry you feel this way as the information I share is intended for the public so they can be educated on these topics. What this motor can and cannot handle when it comes to tuning and forced induction I feel deserves to be discussed openly as it effects all tuners. This thread started to develop a theam based on the belief that this motor cannot handle higher RPM's with boost and I felt that posting our findings thru long-term R&D and our knowledge of supercharging this motor can prove otherwise.
Cooooouuugh ..You are here to take advantage of a direct competitors misfortune....not that I see anything wrong with that..being a business man myself I actually applaude it..its capitalism 101..but please spare us the "Im only on here to inform" rhoteric
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      01-20-2012, 10:31 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinpot View Post
Is this a factual statement or a hypothesis? I've read through pages and pages of this thread and I could have sworn someone said the over rev could have happened at anytime i.e., thereís no correlation between the over rev and time, date, or mileage. If Iím incorrect, please show me how/where?

Btw, looking forward to Mikeís analysis which should put this sordid affair to bed.
+1

AA is just assuming that it happened at the same time.
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      01-20-2012, 10:35 AM   #257
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Cooooouuugh ..You are here to take advantage of a direct competitors misfortune....not that I see anything wrong with that..being a business man myself I actually applaude it..its capitalism 101..but please spare us the "Im only on here to inform" rhoteric
LOL...im pretty sure everyone knows by now ESS is the best in the business, look at their track record.
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      01-20-2012, 10:53 AM   #258
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Cooooouuugh ..You are here to take advantage of a direct competitors misfortune....not that I see anything wrong with that..being a business man myself I actually applaude it..its capitalism 101..but please spare us the "Im only on here to inform" rhoteric
Pretty sure there's no need for Roman/ESS to do that. The number of ESS kits out there speaks volumes.
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      01-20-2012, 10:54 AM   #259
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Ill come right out and say you my friend are a moron and if anyone is childish its YOU for this dumb ass comment. Roman came on here with some of the most informative info yet and he also said right off the bat that he does not even want to speculate why the motor blew. Bottom line is that ESS has supercharged more e9x's than anyone and they have done their homework. All Roman has been doing is trying to educate current and future SC owners and I think you owe him an apology.
+1....great info from Roman.
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      01-20-2012, 10:56 AM   #260
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LOL...im pretty sure everyone knows by now ESS is the best in the business, look at their track record.
Did i comment on if they were the best or not?..uhh no... so your comment is not even relevant

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Pretty sure there's no need for Roman/ESS to do that. The number of ESS kits out there speaks volumes.
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Oh please... relax, dude.
I am as relaxed as can be..just calling it as I see it.
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      01-20-2012, 11:31 AM   #261
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      01-20-2012, 11:34 AM   #262
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      01-20-2012, 11:44 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
Andrew,

Nice speaking with you on the phone.

My freezeframe data will show the factory redline, as there is no need in tipping off the dealer that the redline is infact raised.

On the phone you told me that you had a printout of the freezeframe data from this car at hand. I suggest that you post that for everyones sake to get to the bottom of this.

As far as I am concerned, this is up to the OP to allow validation of this data to support (or not support) your rendition of the events derived from the freezeframe data pulled from the OP's car.

Mike,

Can you explain to everyone here how the shadow data works? I think there may be some clarification needed as to whether the data for max values listed are for a specific date and mileage or whether they are just the max values the computer has seen.

Thanks!
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      01-20-2012, 01:21 PM   #264
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Quote:
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Mike,

Can you explain to everyone here how the shadow data works? I think there may be some clarification needed as to whether the data for max values listed are for a specific date and mileage or whether they are just the max values the computer has seen.

Thanks!
Sure,

It's not necessarially "shadow" data in the conventional sense - Shadow memory is a seperate area usually used for fault codes that are either hidden for a specific reason, or codes that the car might set, but havent reached the defined iterations to trigger the CEL.

In this case, what is being read is "freezeframe" data. Freeframe data holds the maximum values for particular situations, two of them being Vmax (maximum velocity or speed) and Nmax (maximum engine RPM).

The car will record "events" - # of seconds in redline past a certain area, along with a number of things. But these are more like counters and don't give you a whole lot of information. As far as exceeding redline, the freeze frame data will have a single snapshop of the highest point achieved. Along with that specific frame will come other information such as throttle position, mileage, speed at gearbox/vanos, mass airflow rate, etc..

So in this particular situation, since we know approximately when his car was supercharged, when he had the AA software before the SC, etc - basically a valid timeline - A readout of that freeframe data will show us when (in mileage) this particular "event" occured, and based on that and the timeline we've constructed, we can infer whether the overrev situation happened while the S/C was installed, or if this was not recorded with the S/C installed.

If, infact it shows that the 8,705 was reached after the installation of the blower, then I think we have a possible case of an over rev situation. It might have been a weak point of the motor that was exacerbated with the shift. 8,700 is not a big deal on these motors in my opinion. If it shows that 8,705 was achieved before the blower install (or a while back in mileage), there is a reasonable assumption that the failure is in line with something other than a moneyshift.

One thing strange to me is that AA's freezeframe data actually shows 8,100 RPM. Most of the cars I've read, even with an increased redline, still show the factory rev limit in those cells. From my recollection, my car shows this as 8,350 even though its closer to 8,700. It shows my top speed limiter as "not raised" even though I've hit over 170mph with the car. The other interesting point is that there are two limits you see, one at 8,350 and one at 8,450. AA had reduced the redline to 8,100, but the intervention point after that according to their freezeframe data was 8,450. A buffer of 350 RPM from the set redline for further intervention seems to be a wide gap.

But again, I would like to read the freezeframe data myself to see what appears. This is just for validation purposes and to make some more sense of this situation.

I hope this helps.

Mike
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