BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
EclipsisNA
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-19-2012, 09:15 PM   #221
BMRLVR
Grease Monkey
 
BMRLVR's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada

Posts: 2,269
iTrader: (3)

I am of the belief that since an over rev that is the result of a mis-shift, increases the engine speed so fast that it is possible that even the extremely smart MSS60 DME in the M3 might not keep up.

If, the engine was indeed mechanically over revved, the 8705 RPM is irrelevant. The violence of the sudden increase in speed during the clutch engagement (the mechanical over rev itself), then the sudden decrease in speed after the clutch disengagement (after the driver realizes he f---ed up). Is what does the damage. Bringing load onto an object slowly is much different than a sudden jolt. This coupled with the entire mass of the vehicle spinning the engine.

Think about this analogy and you will realize how big a deal mass makes in the equation.

If a person on a bicycle runs into the back of your car at 20 MPH it gives a pretty good jolt, right!?

Is the jolt much bigger if a motorcycle hits you at the same velocity?

How about a car hits you at the same velocity?

How about a pick-up truck?

A Semi?

Hopefully this drives the point home how mass increases force delivered even if speed is constant.

Think about this, it takes the S65's full output (in stock form) to move our M3's over the distance of a quarter mile in 12.8 - 13.2. At the end of the quarter mile the car is doing between 108-115 MPH, it takes a lot of energy to do that! The speed at the end of the quarter mile is not to far off of the alleged mis-shift, imagine all of the energy that was expelled to get the car to that speed (obviously subtracting frictional, inertial and heat losses) and start delivering it back into the engine in a millisecond and expect it to deal with it without breaking.

Does this help to drive home the notion of how much damage a mis-shift can cause???!!!
__________________
2011 E90 M3 ZCP - Individual Moonstone/Individual Amarone Extended/Individual Piano Black With Inlay:LINK!!!
1994 Euro E36 M3 Sedan - Daytona Violet/Mulberry:LINK!!!
BMRLVR is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 09:23 PM   #222
spdu4ea
Custom User Title
 
Drives: .
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA

Posts: 105
iTrader: (0)

Exactly! It doesn't have to be rpm (though that does contribute due to lowering of factor of safety) - it is the acceleration. Throw on some Dr's, hit redline in 4th, clutch in until engine is at idle, clutch out - boom - instant 7000+ rpm acceleration (not likely to do valve damage either)...
spdu4ea is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 09:28 PM   #223
Joey
Enlisted Member
 
Joey's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 BMW M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Saint Petersburg, Florida

Posts: 32
iTrader: (0)

I just spent some time reading this, and on bimmerforums. OP, unless we can see some provable data showing AA at fault and support of your claims (I'd like to see the RO from BMW showing a top speed hit of 186MPH), all I can read is you whining thus far. Being in sales for years, I have learned that empty barrels make the most noise. This thread is empty without evidence from the OP.
__________________
2009 BMW M3 Coupe (Alpine White over Black Novillo Leather, Premium Package, ipod integration, heated seats, 19s, CF Roof, 6 MT)
Previous:1995 BMW 325is/1995 BMW M3 Coupe/1998.5 BMW M3 Dinan Coupe/2000 BMW 323CI/2003.5 BMW M3 Coupe (SMG)
Joey is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 09:34 PM   #224
Mike Benvo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Mike Benvo's Avatar
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3 / 400whp Turbo 7
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: SoCal

Posts: 4,300
iTrader: (6)

Garage List
1990 BMW 735i Turbo  [5.00]
2004 BMW M3  [0.00]
2008 BMW M3  [5.00]
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Benvo
BMRLVR - thanks for the extended explanation. This is what I was trying to get across in the end of my last post.

As far as the M3's DME not being able to "keep up" - I have to disagree here. We're talking about a DME that not only has SERIOUS processing power (200 million+ calculations PER second), but also extremely fast in response times. These are electrical signals at the end of the day, which are a hell of a lot faster than any sort of mechanical linkage. The DME would certainly interact within miliseconds, and faster than it would take for the clutch to engage and force the engine past it's operating limits.

It's a moot point in this situation though, as all the DME can do is cut fueling and injection. This isn't going to help reduce the damage that was already done, it will just prevent futher damage from happening after the fact. Nothing can stop the engine from roaring up from a money shift other than the transmission, driveline, or clutch giving out first. 9 times out of 10 the engine will have damage, and if you're in that lucky 1/10, maybe you caught it before the clutch fully engaged.
__________________

-----| Like us on Facebook | Instagram || Tuning Information | Remote Coding |-----
----Visit us at www.BPMSport.com - Emotion. Driven. | Toll Free: (888) 557-5133----
Mike Benvo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 09:47 PM   #225
US///M3
Banned
 
Drives: 1973 Jensen Interceptor
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shanghai, People's Republic of China

Posts: 1,266
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I am of the belief that since an over rev that is the result of a mis-shift, increases the engine speed so fast that it is possible that even the extremely smart MSS60 DME in the M3 might not keep up.

If, the engine was indeed mechanically over revved, the 8705 RPM is irrelevant. The violence of the sudden increase in speed during the clutch engagement (the mechanical over rev itself), then the sudden decrease in speed after the clutch disengagement (after the driver realizes he f---ed up). Is what does the damage. Bring load onto an object slowly is much different than a sudden jolt. This coupled with the entire mass of the vehicle spinning the engine.

Think about this analogy and you will realize how big a deal mass makes in the equation.

If a person runs into the back of your car at 20 MPH it gives a pretty good jolt, right!?

Is the jolt much bigger if a motorcycle hits you at the same velocity?

How about a car hits you at the same velocity?

How about a pick-up truck?

A Semi?

Hopefully this drives the point home how mass increases force delivered even if speed is constant.

Think about this, it takes the S65's full output (in stock form) to move our M3's over the distance of a quarter mile in 12.8 - 13.2. At the end of the quarter mile the car is doing between 108-115 MPH, it takes a lot of energy to do that! The speed at the end of the quarter mile is not to far off of the alleged mis-shift, imagine all of the energy that was expelled to get the car to that speed (obviously subtracting frictional, inertial and heat losses) and start delivering it back into the engine in a millisecond and expect it to deal with it without breaking.

Does this help to drive home the notion of how much damage a mis-shift can cause???!!!
Think about drifting when they release the clutch,the rpm is increased so fast,The DME still keeps up.
I don't think the engine braking effect would stop the rpm from passing 8,700 rpm if a mis-shift took place.

Also,it's very hard to confuse 3rd for 5th coming from 4th on an upshift,I've heard of guys moving the shifter too far to.the left passing the gate for the desired gear. Like wanting to go from 5th into 4th and accidentally put it in 2nd by movin the lever too far to the left.

I mean you can't move the lever too far to the right from 4th to end up in a lower gear.
US///M3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 10:14 PM   #226
US///M3
Banned
 
Drives: 1973 Jensen Interceptor
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shanghai, People's Republic of China

Posts: 1,266
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey View Post
I just spent some time reading this, and on bimmerforums. OP, unless we can see some provable data showing AA at fault and support of your claims (I'd like to see the RO from BMW showing a top speed hit of 186MPH), all I can read is you whining thus far. Being in sales for years, I have learned that empty barrels make the most noise. This thread is empty without evidence from the OP.
Good point, but I think AA lose credibility when they say a money shift caused the failure.
Nobody knows exactly what caused the failure.
US///M3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:03 PM   #227
BMRLVR
Grease Monkey
 
BMRLVR's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada

Posts: 2,269
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Benvo View Post
BMRLVR - thanks for the extended explanation. This is what I was trying to get across in the end of my last post.

As far as the M3's DME not being able to "keep up" - I have to disagree here. We're talking about a DME that not only has SERIOUS processing power (200 million+ calculations PER second), but also extremely fast in response times. These are electrical signals at the end of the day, which are a hell of a lot faster than any sort of mechanical linkage. The DME would certainly interact within miliseconds, and faster than it would take for the clutch to engage and force the engine past it's operating limits.

It's a moot point in this situation though, as all the DME can do is cut fueling and injection. This isn't going to help reduce the damage that was already done, it will just prevent futher damage from happening after the fact. Nothing can stop the engine from roaring up from a money shift other than the transmission, driveline, or clutch giving out first. 9 times out of 10 the engine will have damage, and if you're in that lucky 1/10, maybe you caught it before the clutch fully engaged.
I have no doubt it could keep up however the limitation will always be in how quickly the hall sensors used on the speed sensors, can generate the voltage to send the signal to the ECM/DME. Every ECM/DME has a point where RPM can exceed the rate at which it can function, and most times the limitation is not the ECM/DME itself but a limitation of the sensors speed at which they can send the input data to the ECM/DME, and/or the rate at which the actuators can make changes to control the engine. I think maybe the only ones who know what this speed is, is BMW or Siemens.

Anyway, it don't really matter much, like you said the point is moot, the DME is powerless to do anything at that point besides cut fuel, spark, and create a freeze frame of all the parameters/conditions at the time of the max over rev.

I wish this argument between AA and the OP would end! We could all benefit from the information obtained if we could get the correct info on this incident and someone would look at the engine from a failure analysis standpoint.

Honestly, I think the OP should try and get an independent materials engineering firm to do a failure analysis report on his old engine........ They could tell him the exact cause of the failure. I don't think the cost would be that much.
__________________
2011 E90 M3 ZCP - Individual Moonstone/Individual Amarone Extended/Individual Piano Black With Inlay:LINK!!!
1994 Euro E36 M3 Sedan - Daytona Violet/Mulberry:LINK!!!
BMRLVR is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:05 PM   #228
Singletrack
4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade.
 
Singletrack's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 SSII E92 M3; 12 AW X5d
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Posts: 3,791
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MPoweredAuto View Post
There is no indication of bent valves, and for the last time I didn't mis shift. I feel that your kit+tune pushed it past it's safe operating limit and if your R&D was extensive enough, you may have known not to push it to that extreme.

I answered your question, now I have one for you:

For whatever reason, have ANY other Active Autowerke supercharged e9x M3's had engine failures at this point besides mine?

Thank you 'Andrew'
Let's look at the facts:

So the valves are irrrelevant...which you should know.

You "feel" that their kit pushed it past the safe limits. You have provided no proof.

Let's assume that you didn't money shift, but instead were just driving along as you say. Why do you think AA is responsible for your engine? Was their some warranty that was included with the product?

What is it that I am not getting here?
Singletrack is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:05 PM   #229
DylanMckay
Banned
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: armpit of the USA

Posts: 122
iTrader: (0)

Doesn't the S65 have hydralic lifters and not solid? The s54 had solid lifters which needed adjusting but s65 needs no ajusting and is hydralic I thought?
DylanMckay is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:16 PM   #230
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

Posts: 3,215
iTrader: (5)

We set the rev limiter to 8100 rpm when we installed the supercharger. Like all jobs that come into the shop we note the mileage of the vehicle.

Jordan's vehicle went above 8700 rpm after we installed the kit and the ecu data clearly notes this. There is only one way an engine can get over the set rev limiter and thats mis shifting.

The argument at this point is not whether the car can or can not handle the RPMs it's that the car was abused beyond the limits that we set.

This is an aftermarket high performance upgrade. The output of the engine is increased by over 40%. Upgrades like this have a stated disclaimer that there is no guarantee that the engine will last as long as BMW intended. Safeguards are put in place to make these kits are reliable as possible. Our methanol kits have become very refined over the years of supercharging vehicles. The rev limiter has been reduced to 8100rpm. The V8 engine is not as inherently balanced as the classic BMW inline six. Fueling and tune adjustments have been proven on many other cars accompanied with dynamometer testing.

This incident happened over a year ago. At the time of the failure we bought the kit back from Jordan for full retail price. The problem was thought to have been resolved, but it is resurfacing. Our customer service has been nothing but cooperative and we are under attack over a year later.

Pictures were sent to us of the damage and diagnosis was done over the phone. The pistons showed no signs of damage from knock or overheating. If there were signs of failure due to improper tuning we would have been willing to help further than we already did.
__________________

Last edited by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke; 01-20-2012 at 02:16 AM.
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:17 PM   #231
Roman@ESS
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Roman@ESS's Avatar
 
Drives: ESS Supercharged E92 M3
Join Date: May 2007
Location: AZ

Posts: 2,432
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DylanMckay View Post
Doesn't the S65 have hydralic lifters and not solid? The s54 had solid lifters which needed adjusting but s65 needs no ajusting and is hydralic I thought?
It is actually a custom hybrid lifter that is designed for high RPM's.
Roman@ESS is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:40 PM   #232
BMRLVR
Grease Monkey
 
BMRLVR's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada

Posts: 2,269
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman@ESS View Post
It is actually a custom hybrid lifter that is designed for high RPM's.
That makes sense, a conventional hydraulic lifter wouldn't be the safest design in an engine that turns 8400RPM. Thanks for the clarification on that.

Actually the hybrid design explains the reason that the valvetrain is noisier on the S65 that most other engines with hydraulic valvetrains. The design sounds like it is really the best of both worlds, no adjustments but with the safety of a solid design!

I am now very interested in exactly how it is designed internally!
__________________
2011 E90 M3 ZCP - Individual Moonstone/Individual Amarone Extended/Individual Piano Black With Inlay:LINK!!!
1994 Euro E36 M3 Sedan - Daytona Violet/Mulberry:LINK!!!
BMRLVR is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:46 PM   #233
Dave07997S
Colonel
 
Drives: 2011 BMW M3 ZCP Coupe
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Playa del Rey, CA

Posts: 2,285
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smmmurf View Post
I agree with this +1. Why start with the wrong car? The whole point of it is N/A power and nice handling balance. Start with a GT500 or GT-R.

At least the OP has a new engine. Engines were updated in 2009 I believe.
Exactly..if I wanted a blown car I would have bought a GT500 and be at 800rwhp right now. I mean a 2013 car will be at 650 stock!!

As far as to the OP, I definitely feel your pain and understand on why you feel AA should help out here...but its a blower on a high compression, high revving power plant. I mean even Drew with Gintani still had significant out of pocket expenses and ended up buying half the motor anyway.

Dave
__________________
2013 M3 Coupe-MR/BLK ZCP, ACM test pipes, BPM Stg2 dev. tune and Megan catback, more to come
Previous rides: 2011 M3 Coupe-MR/Blk
2007 Porsche 997C2S Speed Yellow/Blk sport seats
2004 BMW M3 Imola/Blk
Dave07997S is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:48 PM   #234
Roman@ESS
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Roman@ESS's Avatar
 
Drives: ESS Supercharged E92 M3
Join Date: May 2007
Location: AZ

Posts: 2,432
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
That makes sense, a conventional hydraulic lifter wouldn't be the safest design in an engine that turns 8400RPM. Thanks for the clarification on that.

Actually the hybrid design explains the reason that the valvetrain is noisier on the S65 that most other engines with hydraulic valvetrains. The design sounds like it is really the best of both worlds, no adjustments but with the safety of a solid design!
I am now very interested in exactly how it is designed internally!
Correct

BTW this is our VT2 kit on a stock motor with RPM limit of 8600. Being a drift car it spends a great deal of time bouncing off the rev limiter.

Roman@ESS is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:50 PM   #235
stega
Captain
 
Drives: 2011 M3 E93
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Posts: 666
iTrader: (3)

So here is my question... Why does AA have to lower the rev limiter but ESS can have it @ 8600 no problem??
stega is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-19-2012, 11:57 PM   #236
tpowerdinny
Specialist
 
Drives: A Tricycle
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NYC

Posts: 613
iTrader: (4)

^ GREAT question
tpowerdinny is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-20-2012, 12:09 AM   #237
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

Posts: 3,215
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stega View Post
So here is my question... Why does AA have to lower the rev limiter but ESS can have it @ 8600 no problem??
At the beginning of a design cycle AA has kept things conservative. The long term reliability of these motors is not clear yet. Our E46 kits started out making quite a bit less power then they do today. At the time of design it was not clear what the long term reliability would be. Today our kits make 100 more horsepower to the wheels than the first generation.

We strive to provide horsepower while being cautious of the unknown.

I hope some can appreciate our desire to err on the side of caution.
__________________
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-20-2012, 12:16 AM   #238
M3ryder55
Captain
 
Drives: 2010 SG M3
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chatsworth, CA

Posts: 797
iTrader: (2)

So childish of Roman @ ESS to keep adding fuel to the fire
M3ryder55 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-20-2012, 12:21 AM   #239
tibra1
Banned
 
Drives: 2011 ZCP M3 - 2007 335i crashd
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NYC

Posts: 6,777
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3ryder55 View Post
So childish of Roman @ ESS to keep adding fuel to the fire
Rule of the jungle..one persons loss is anothers gain

Last edited by tibra1; 01-20-2012 at 12:35 AM.
tibra1 is offline   No_Country
0
Reply With Quote
      01-20-2012, 12:30 AM   #240
stega
Captain
 
Drives: 2011 M3 E93
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Posts: 666
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
At the beginning of a design cycle AA has kept things conservative. The long term reliability of these motors is not clear yet. Our E46 kits started out making quite a bit less power then they do today. At the time of design it was not clear what the long term reliability would be. Today our kits make 100 more horsepower to the wheels than the first generation.

We strive to provide horsepower while being cautious of the unknown.

I hope some can appreciate our desire to err on the side of caution.
So what redline do the kits come with if I were to order one today??
stega is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-20-2012, 12:38 AM   #241
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 435I M-sport
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Miami Fl

Posts: 3,215
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stega View Post
So what redline do the kits come with if I were to order one today??
8100 rpm
__________________
Andrew@ActiveAutowerke is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-20-2012, 12:53 AM   #242
MPoweredAuto
Private First Class
 
Drives: e36, e46, e90 M3's
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern Florida

Posts: 199
iTrader: (0)

When I get back into town I will do my best to answer any and all questions posted.

I think I asked a pretty valid question directly to Active though:

Have you had ANY other e9x M3's equipped with your supercharger fail at this time?

ACTIVE- where does the data say that RPM was recorded after the s/c was installed? Am I missing something?

I am not trying to attack Active, I am trying to bring the truth out no matter what you all might think. I have plenty of supporting facts to everything I have said and I will do my best to post them Sunday. I will also be working with Mike to get accurate data from the DME.

And just to let you all know, my car is paid for. My engine replacement, regardless of cost is paid for now too. I have nothing to lose or really gain at this point other than exposing a big error in an aftermarket tuners ethics.

Point fingers at me, I don't really care. I know what I have said and stated is factual. I will sleep soundly tonight. Thank you.
MPoweredAuto is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
bmw m3, e90, fail, s65, supercharged

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST