BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
Steve Thomas BMW
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-18-2012, 11:00 AM   #23
DocJohn
Second Lieutenant
2

 
DocJohn's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: New Jersey


Posts: 251
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by paradocs98 View Post
Your complaint is valid, but keep in mind that, as noted above, Brembo has several different lines of varying "quality" for different OEM applications. I believe I've read reviews of various performance cars with OEM Brembo brakes that fail miserably in a track setting, even though they may look pretty.
You thinking of the Nissan 370Z with the track package that almost killed the Car&driver tester when the brakes failed????

Scary stuff indeed!
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 11:30 AM   #24
Moxie
Lieutenant Colonel
Germany
25

 
Moxie's Avatar
 
Drives: AW 328d Touring/SG 335d
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Stuttgart


Posts: 1,860
iTrader: (11)

[quote=VVG;11169523]Yep. Them be the ones !!!!!! I guess that answers the next question.....will they fit on the M3? So where did these come from? Are they already selling parts for the M5 before the car hits the streets or is it actually out in Europe now?[/QUOTE]

It's out in Europe. Here's a couple pics I took at the dealers last weekend. IMO AMG's still look better. The rear brakes aren't anything special either.
Attached Images
   
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 12:04 PM   #25
JAJ
Captain
17

 
Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC


Posts: 929
iTrader: (4)

The discussion in this thread is founded on an assumption that's not exactly valid: that big, multi-piston calipers and heavy ventilated rotors are good for daily drivers. If you're going to produce 50,000 cars, most of which will only ever be daily driver only, brakes that will survive 8 track days a year are not the best choice. That's because in normal use they won't get hot enough to prevent serious corrosion problems from setting in fairly early in the life cycle. A few years on, calipers will seize, rotors will rust through, fluid will load up with moisture and so on. It's just not a good situation. I know this because I've had it happen on two cars I've owned and used for highway commuting. When you drive for 30 miles without touching the brakes twice a day, even the factory brakes will have these problems.

That's the reason you read car magazine reviews about Brembo equipped cars running out of brakes. That's why the "BMW Performance" brakes have been such a disappointment. They're basically decorative, designed to look tough while delivering decades of trouble-free service in daily use.

So what about Porsche and other cars with "real" brakes? Like the M3, they're great if you switch pads and put ducts on them, but if you're serious then you should really upgrade them to GT3 calipers and rotors... is this sounding familiar?
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 12:17 PM   #26
Gearhead999s
Major General
92

 
Gearhead999s's Avatar
 
Drives: F25 2.8d(wifes)F82 M4
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto


Posts: 6,803
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
The discussion in this thread is founded on an assumption that's not exactly valid: that big, multi-piston calipers and heavy ventilated rotors are good for daily drivers. If you're going to produce 50,000 cars, most of which will only ever be daily driver only, brakes that will survive 8 track days a year are not the best choice. That's because in normal use they won't get hot enough to prevent serious corrosion problems from setting in fairly early in the life cycle. A few years on, calipers will seize, rotors will rust through, fluid will load up with moisture and so on. It's just not a good situation. I know this because I've had it happen on two cars I've owned and used for highway commuting. When you drive for 30 miles without touching the brakes twice a day, even the factory brakes will have these problems.

That's the reason you read car magazine reviews about Brembo equipped cars running out of brakes. That's why the "BMW Performance" brakes have been such a disappointment. They're basically decorative, designed to look tough while delivering decades of trouble-free service in daily use.

So what about Porsche and other cars with "real" brakes? Like the M3, they're great if you switch pads and put ducts on them, but if you're serious then you should really upgrade them to GT3 calipers and rotors... is this sounding familiar?
+1.When you have a BBK you have to treat them differently in day to day use than a standard "normal"setup.Corrosion is real problem with more agressive pads and big iron rotors.
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 01:21 PM   #27
swartzentruber
Lieutenant
United_States
7

 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago NW suburbs, IL


Posts: 590
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
The discussion in this thread is founded on an assumption that's not exactly valid: that big, multi-piston calipers and heavy ventilated rotors are good for daily drivers.
That's a good point, but I for one am not advocating putting the better brakes as standard on the stock car (in fact, most car companies don't), but at least have it available as an option for those that do intend to track -- particularly if you are going to sell something called the "Competition Package", maybe, I don't know, put something in it that actually improves the car for competion. I guess the "Shiny Big Wheels and Adjustable Suspension Package" doesn't have the same ring. Great point on the GT3 side, but unfortunately BMW doesn't have any better track options, at least not in the US, unlike MB with the Black Series and Porsche with the GT3.

It seems like those agreeing with the OP are coming from two perspectives, either those wanting something that looks better (which I think is silly, but everyone has an opinion), or those that want something functionally better if you are going to regularly track, and I'm firmly in that camp. I likely won't be tracking my M3 for a few years, but when I do, I'll likely be putting a Stoptech kit on it, and that is money I'd have happily paid extra to BMW for if they has a comparable option.
__________________
2011 Jerez Black/Fox Red E90 M3 DCT, ZCP, ZCV, ZCW, ZP2, BMW Apps
2004 VW R32 (track car)
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 02:03 PM   #28
JAJ
Captain
17

 
Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC


Posts: 929
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
That's a good point, but I for one am not advocating putting the better brakes as standard on the stock car (in fact, most car companies don't), but at least have it available as an option for those that do intend to track -- particularly if you are going to sell something called the "Competition Package", maybe, I don't know, put something in it that actually improves the car for competion. I guess the "Shiny Big Wheels and Adjustable Suspension Package" doesn't have the same ring. Great point on the GT3 side, but unfortunately BMW doesn't have any better track options, at least not in the US, unlike MB with the Black Series and Porsche with the GT3.

It seems like those agreeing with the OP are coming from two perspectives, either those wanting something that looks better (which I think is silly, but everyone has an opinion), or those that want something functionally better if you are going to regularly track, and I'm firmly in that camp. I likely won't be tracking my M3 for a few years, but when I do, I'll likely be putting a Stoptech kit on it, and that is money I'd have happily paid extra to BMW for if they has a comparable option.
I understand and agree with you, but there's the cost issue. I think BMW's been pretty realistic with its strategy - if you need bigger brakes, buy them in the aftermarket. The cost of putting a safety critical system like brakes through the homologation and approval process, particularly for North America where accidents and lawsuits are rampant, just makes it too expensive for the OEM. The calipers on the E9x M3 are actually borrowed from other production BMW's - the fronts came from the regular 5 series sedan and the rears are from the M5/M6. Homologation costs were reduced, I'm sure.

In contrast, consider the GT3 - it has a lot fewer parts than the regular 911, so it should be cheaper, yet it costs a LOT more. Part of that is marketing, but I'm sure there's a significant cost load for liability insurance and product assurance and testing that Porsche has to pay to bring it to market.

As for getting real performance upgrades from BMW, you can buy BMW Motorsport parts from a couple of dealers in North America. You have to sign a waiver and release BMW from any warranty obligations, but you can buy the same parts that the professionals use.
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 02:19 PM   #29
paradocs98
Major
United_States
29

 
paradocs98's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 991 Carrera S
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NY


Posts: 1,347
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocJohn View Post
You thinking of the Nissan 370Z with the track package that almost killed the Car&driver tester when the brakes failed????

Scary stuff indeed!
That's it!--I was trying to remember the exact circumstance.
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 03:05 PM   #30
stefan
Colonel
Canada
27

 
stefan's Avatar
 
Drives: E92M3
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Calgary


Posts: 2,145
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
1999 VF BMW M3  [5.00]
2001 BMW M5  [0.00]
2008 135i  [5.00]
2003 M3  [3.10]
2011.75 BMW M3  [4.17]
2009 STi  [3.83]
My local driving instructor said the only thing he would change on the M3 is either a BBK or better brake cooling. Suppose the DIY ducts might work well.

re: that broken Brembo setup on a 370Z.. same thing happened to a guy from 'the truth about cars' on a Mustang GT with Brembo setup at the track.
__________________
///M Power - 2011.75 LMB M3 6MT (fuelly)
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 03:50 PM   #31
JAJ
Captain
17

 
Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC


Posts: 929
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
...same thing happened to a guy from 'the truth about cars' on a Mustang GT with Brembo setup at the track.
I've read, with some trepidation, that the Mustang GT Brembo problem is actually a problem with the master cylinder and ABS system and not the wheel brake assemblies. It's been reported a few times and it sounds really scary. It doesn't affect the Mustang "Shelby" GT500, which uses the exact same brakes, even though it's 200 pounds heavier and shows up for work with an extra 150 HP.

The Ford Mustang GT/GT500 Brembo's are about as good as OEM Brembo's ever get. They still need stainless lines, fluid, ducts and race pads to be trackable, but they're surprisingly good as a starting point.
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 05:03 PM   #32
Gins
I can't find my pants.
No_Country
32

 
Gins's Avatar
 
Drives: '15 Supergirl Combo M3, YMB-SO
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 8=====D \o/ 335i, yo


Posts: 2,508
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3 E90  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOOFY View Post
That is not the point. For the amount of money these cars cost - they should be comparable in MOST spec's as to other cars in its range. They are selling a car that states " Ultimate Driving Machine " yet they put shitty breaking system in here.

The breaking system is a far cry from being "shitty." I'd take these plain looking calipers over my STI brembo kit anyday.

The engineers designed the car to stop within certain specs and they accomplished that with the stock configuration in addition to being fully covered for 4 years/50,000 miles by BMW.

Plus, there is no substitute for a good pad/rotor/brake fluid combo, no matter how flashy the calipers are. The Brembos on the G37s and STIs are not going to be the same quality as an aftermarket kit, as others have pointed out.
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 05:28 PM   #33
mastek
e36s54, F10M5, e70X5d
United_States
32

 
mastek's Avatar
 
Drives: slow
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA


Posts: 1,590
iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMPowerJ View Post
Function over form ... but they don't exactly function that well. They are more than adequate on the street, but it is one of the first things most people change for the track.

It would be nice to have a brake package that you do not have to touch when you go to the track. It would help seal the deal that this IS the ultimate driving machine and BMW's ad campaigns with the M3 on the track would be more credible.
Pretty much sums it up people
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 08:16 PM   #34
Denk
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
23

 
Drives: E92 M3 ZCP
Join Date: May 2011
Location: PNW


Posts: 1,950
iTrader: (2)

BMW saves some of the goodies for limited edition model's, i.e. GTS and CRT.
They're not going to shoot their load on the standard M3. I'm sure the next generation is going to be the same way. Bummer that those models probably won't be available in the US either.
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 08:18 PM   #35
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
United_States
36

 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA


Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snig View Post
The breaking system is a far cry from being "shitty." I'd take these plain looking calipers over my STI brembo kit anyday.

The engineers designed the car to stop within certain specs and they accomplished that with the stock configuration in addition to being fully covered for 4 years/50,000 miles by BMW.

Plus, there is no substitute for a good pad/rotor/brake fluid combo, no matter how flashy the calipers are. The Brembos on the G37s and STIs are not going to be the same quality as an aftermarket kit, as others have pointed out.
+1,000,000

You want to stop faster on the track? Put serious track pads on the car, decent fluid and a set of sticky tires. My god! I can't believe this subject still comes up.

On the other hand, with money as no object, I wouldn't hesitate to put a Performance Friction set-up on my car. But it won't make me significantly faster.
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 08:43 PM   #36
tibra1
Banned
No_Country
74

 
Drives: 2011 ZCP M3 - 2007 335i crashd
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NYC


Posts: 6,777
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
+1,000,000

You want to stop faster on the track? Put serious track pads on the car, decent fluid and a set of sticky tires. My god! I can't believe this subject still comes up.

On the other hand, with money as no object, I wouldn't hesitate to put a Performance Friction set-up on my car. But it won't make me significantly faster.
+1

I think everyones gripe here is the bling factor BBKs offer..,more than how good they perform..I really cant say a bad thing about the M3s brakes..even my 335 had great stopping power and ooh so quiet.

Ofcourse if you are going to track w/ OEM pads than can you really expect them to keep performing well? The right tool for the job would be in order..
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 08:53 PM   #37
M3SQRD
Colonel
United_States
24

 
M3SQRD's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 M3s, R56 Cooper S
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: EC


Posts: 2,479
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
+1,000,000

You want to stop faster on the track? Put serious track pads on the car, decent fluid and a set of sticky tires. My god! I can't believe this subject still comes up.

On the other hand, with money as no object, I wouldn't hesitate to put a Performance Friction set-up on my car. But it won't make me significantly faster.
Well stated! I agree, I can't believe this topic keeps coming up
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 09:29 PM   #38
kitw
Colonel
53

 
kitw's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 MW M3/2014 Boxster S
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA


Posts: 2,590
iTrader: (14)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
+1,000,000

You want to stop faster on the track? Put serious track pads on the car, decent fluid and a set of sticky tires. My god! I can't believe this subject still comes up.

On the other hand, with money as no object, I wouldn't hesitate to put a Performance Friction set-up on my car. But it won't make me significantly faster.
the biggest advantage I see from a big fixed piston caliper setup is the improved pedal feel... (which is why I think it's weird that the F10 M5 comes with floating rear calipers!)

My 997.2 C2S has *much* more solid and confidence inspiring brakes than my M3. It's significantly better... wish I could have those brakes on the M3.

But, in street driving, it makes almost zero difference. On the track, pads and cooling are much more of a limiting factor than caliper design. The M3 has huge rotors and a beautiful floating iron rotor pinned to an aluminum hat. Sexy stuff.
Appreciate 0
      01-18-2012, 11:05 PM   #39
bigjae1976
That's what she said...
80

 
bigjae1976's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 E90 M3 Individual
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI


Posts: 5,546
iTrader: (12)

Garage List
2004 BMW M3  [4.50]
2011 BMW E90 M3  [5.00]
2013 BMW 328i  [5.00]
The biggest problem with the F10 M5 brakes is finding good track tires for 19" rims.

I love the fixed calipers but I hope BMW doesn't relegate this street/track machine to only street tires.
__________________


Sponsored by Momentum BMW #593...We Bleed BMW BLUE!
Appreciate 0
      01-27-2012, 11:21 PM   #40
IFX
Banned
29

 
Drives: AW e46M/N54
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South Fla.


Posts: 2,538
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snig View Post
Get over it. It's an M3. You think all of the STI, EVO, and G37 crowd are going to care about what what calipers you have?


totally missing the point.

The M3 is 80k, it's brakes should certainly look the part..


AMG brakes make me drool.
Appreciate 0
      01-29-2012, 11:23 AM   #41
jml
Captain
17

 
jml's Avatar
 
Drives: E90M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Austin, TX


Posts: 986
iTrader: (2)

As long as they stop like this lap after lap, I don't care what they look like..
Name:  bendix-brakes-slippin-small-82202.jpg
Views: 162
Size:  19.0 KB
Appreciate 0
      01-29-2012, 10:48 PM   #42
Gins
I can't find my pants.
No_Country
32

 
Gins's Avatar
 
Drives: '15 Supergirl Combo M3, YMB-SO
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 8=====D \o/ 335i, yo


Posts: 2,508
iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3 E90  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IFX View Post
totally missing the point.

The M3 is 80k, it's brakes should certainly look the part..


AMG brakes make me drool.

Above all else, brakes should act the part, which they do.

Last edited by Gins; 01-29-2012 at 10:59 PM.
Appreciate 0
      02-05-2012, 10:03 AM   #43
MKE_M3
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
23

 
MKE_M3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 e90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Milwaukee, WI


Posts: 1,685
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdemetry View Post
Upgraded pads are all that are necessary for typical (non race) track use. Probably saves a lot of money compared to Brembo, but clearly BMW has decided to not skimp here anymore given their use of Brembo's on the new M5
I do have foundation for this. My 335i, which has similar if not worse brakes served me just fine with Hawk HP+ pads for several 20 minute sessions at Road America, one of the fastest road courses in the US, where I was able to hit 135-145 in three differant straights each lap. No fade.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      02-05-2012, 10:03 AM   #44
MKE_M3
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
23

 
MKE_M3's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 e90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Milwaukee, WI


Posts: 1,685
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snig View Post
Above all else, brakes should act the part, which they do.
+1
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:18 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST