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      01-25-2012, 03:08 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
More info from VAC Motorsports tear down of a stock motor.





This problem is looking to be the real deal.
Yes it is, Now I have to stop saving for an E90 M3 lol
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      01-25-2012, 08:50 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
More info from VAC Motorsports tear down of a stock motor.





This problem is looking to be the real deal.
What's the mileage on this motor?
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      01-25-2012, 09:53 AM   #91
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Looks like the same rod stretching as Pauls motor where to 2 parts come together
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      01-25-2012, 02:17 PM   #92
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Hi everyone,

Sorry for the late response, we have been extremely busy at the shop and have not had time to come on the forums. We see there has a been a lot of input in this thread and we do agree with some of you. First, let us start by clearing some things up. We never said this will happen to all of the S65 motors, all we stated was that we have seen this happen to completely stock S65s as well as supercharged cars, as our example shows. Obviously adding an S/C kit will accelerate this process, but that doesn't mean it wasn't going to happen on its own, the S/C just made it happen faster. Of course an S/C adds stress to your motor, this engine wasn't designed for F/I and we are not saying an S/C causes no harm. We will not sit here and lie to our customers, we know we have a great product and we stand by it but we also like to educate our customers and aware them of issues we have found. As many of you already know, You have to pay to play .

Now lets continue, most of you seem to think this is just a bearing clearance issue. Yes, this is part of the problem but not the only problem or main problem. From our experience we have found that BMW from factory tends to run tighter oil clearances on all of their motors, M or not. This does not mean all of their motors bearings or motors end up like this. We have said it before and we will say it again, one of the biggest issues we have found in the S65 is the lack of lubrication caused by the oil pump and the wet sump design. Not everyone will agree with us and that is completely ok. We are not here to argue with anyone or get in a pissing war with people on the forums. We speak from actual R & D experience and just posted this video to help people a little better understand whats going on in these motors and get a visual for it as well. Take this information however you want, again it is only here for that purpose, information. You can see for your self and are entitled to your own opinion. We have been pulling these motors apart and doing heavy testing from the day the e90/92 M3 was released in the states. We now have a production Stage 3 kit where we have modified/upgraded a lot more than just bearing clearances. We hope you guys understand that we cant just come on here and give out all of the information we have discovered over the last 4 years. We have been working very hard and that would defeat the whole purpose of our R & D.

Now, we do know there is other people on the forums who are having their motors built by very reputable and knowledgeable engine builders, for example PG. But remember this is still the first S65 motor he will be assembling, so we are also interested on seeing how that turns out. An engine is an engine but any great engine builder will tell you, there is tricks of the trade you can only learn with experience and we have exactly that, experience. We don't just have experience with building different kinds of engines in general but specifically with the s65 engines. So again, not everyone will agree with what we are saying but that's what we have come to learn from our own experience.

Again, sorry for the late response, we are short staffed at the time and we are focusing our attention on completing are current projects and continuing our R & D. All the changes we have made to date on our stage 3 builds have been working thus far. As we continue to raise the boost and push the limits on the S65 (which we are currently doing ) we are sure we will be faced with more problems. We know we are far from being done and we will continue trying to find the weaknesses and improvements that can be made on the S65 so that we can offer our customers a wide range of HP levels to choose from. Hope this helps with some of the concerns and questions. Everyone is welcomed to call us directly or E mail us with any further questions and or inquiries.

Thanks for your time.

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      01-25-2012, 08:19 PM   #93
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What about a dry sump conversion?
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      01-25-2012, 08:57 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@Gintani.com View Post
Obviously adding an S/C kit will accelerate this process, but that doesn't mean it wasn't going to happen on its own, the S/C just made it happen faster. Of course an S/C adds stress to your motor, this engine wasn't designed for F/I and we are not saying an S/C causes no harm. We will not sit here and lie to our customers, we know we have a great product and we stand by it but we also like to educate our customers and aware them of issues we have found. As many of you already know, You have to pay to play .
Love your openness

Very informative post.
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      01-25-2012, 09:09 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
More info from VAC Motorsports tear down of a stock motor.





This problem is looking to be the real deal.

What thread are those pictures from?
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      01-25-2012, 09:15 PM   #96
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should I go buy a porsche now
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      01-25-2012, 09:28 PM   #97
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In all my 20 plus years of loving BMW's and 4 years of owning them, THIS has been the most frightening evening of ownership I've ever experienced. All evening I've read bad news. From engine failure on this thread, which has been informative as hell, to M brand dilution to one poor guy who had 7 of his 8 cylinders crap the bed. And the winner of the evening is the poor guy who's dealer refused to warranty his repair work stating "they found mice in the engine." WTF. What the hell is going on. I'm depressed. Next you'll be telling me there's gonna be diesel powered M cars. I'm going to bed. I'm exhausted. Goodnight.
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      01-26-2012, 03:39 AM   #98
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excellent info! thx 4 sharin
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      02-02-2012, 12:56 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Even though BMW does not publish the info or give any recommendations on the oil clearance specs for the mains and rods, have been able to obtain the clearance measurements from a reliable source.

Based on these numbers that I have been able to obtain, I can now with a high degree of certainty, deduce that any bearing problems on the S65 are due to insufficient factory oil clearance specs. Not any issue with oil pumps and bearings. Basically IMO these engines are assembled too tight.
I am curious as to what year model your bearing clearance data is from. If BMW did change the rod/main bearings (and pump) in mid 2009, what sort of changes did they make? Clearances, materials, oil passages, etc? Did it really make a difference if we are already seeing failures in low mileage 2010's and 2011's?

BMRLVR: thanks for your insight. As a former Porsche mechanic, it is a joy to read your informative and responsible posts!
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      02-27-2012, 03:20 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedragon View Post
I am curious as to what year model your bearing clearance data is from. If BMW did change the rod/main bearings (and pump) in mid 2009, what sort of changes did they make? Clearances, materials, oil passages, etc? Did it really make a difference if we are already seeing failures in low mileage 2010's and 2011's?

BMRLVR: thanks for your insight. As a former Porsche mechanic, it is a joy to read your informative and responsible posts!
+1.i would like to be able to target/avoid certain years as a prospective new owner
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      02-27-2012, 04:03 PM   #101
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great video, very informative!
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      02-27-2012, 10:51 PM   #102
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Great thread. Finally some interesting content here on the forum...

The politics here are indeed interesting as well.

Gintani: Although you seem to be willing to admit that S/Cing accelerates wear the emphasis in your video itself is that there is a lubrication problem either from clearance/tolerance issues or the oil system itself. This absolutely does not seem fair nor accurate. Sure similar problems have been seen on stock cars but it is very rare. On the flip side it is much more common with a high output SCed car. The problem is simply that the stock motor is DESIGNED perfectly for stock power or bolt on power. For a massive power bump one limitation or another will be experienced in this case you have identified a limitation and it happens to be lubrication related. It does not mean there is any "problem" with the S65.

In particular I find this follow up post immensely misleading:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@Gintani.com View Post
This has nothing to do with Supercharging your car. This is just a factory problem. We are not trying to scare people away from Forced Induction, just trying to educate them and show why these type of situations occurred.
.................................................. ..................................................

Quote:
Originally Posted by klammer View Post
One of the most informative posts from one man ever. (look out swamp) Seriously, I am going to go out and buy a model engine right now and start learning this shit. Awesome BMRLVR, you da man!
Thanks but I'm absolutely no match for BMRLVR's experience and knowledge on engine internals. We all have our specialties and I know when and where to defer! He is another great asset to the M3post.com community. I'm glad he bought an M3 so that he would have more reason to contribute to this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImolaMpower View Post
I understand you're an engine builder and have great knowledge of engines. Particularly Cat, Cummins, and Detroit Diesel. However, and not to sound rude, but BMW S65's are not mentioned anywhere in your background.
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE TECH View Post
The difference though is that he is speaking from direct experience working with engines and you are attempting to speak on behalf of Gintani by speculating on their possible R&D and/or engine building experience. Just because he is not an S65 builder doesn't mean his experience and/or knowledge should have less credibility.
Right on THE TECH. ImolaMpower: Open mouth insert foot... Even calling BMRLVR a "builder" indicates you still don't quite understand what he does. He works for a very high tech diesel OEM engine manufacturer. These guys are immensely concerned about longevity and need immensely high torque engines. The tradeoffs they must balance on cost and technology vs. power and longevity are the same ones any engine manufacturer must confront.

This is a basic SYSTEMS problem. If the bearing clearances are adjusted to handle the higher power and power levels are then taken to 1000+ hp the next in line failure will occur, might be structural or perhaps another oil related failure. Fix that and the next weakness can be exposed. Short cutting all of the weaknesses in advance at any given power level is where the experience, expertise and professional engineering fully comes into play. Increases in power beyond typical bolt ons simply must be accompanied by additional modifications to maintain longevity. The "pay to play" attitude comes from folks more or less sneaking by on the wonderful/large failure margins built into such engines by the talented M engine team. Again once those margins are used up the next weakest link will be exposed and the process will be repeated.
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      02-28-2012, 08:20 PM   #103
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just came across this.

C63, here i come..

http://www.***********.com/content.p...-recall&page=7
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      02-28-2012, 08:53 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedragon View Post
I am curious as to what year model your bearing clearance data is from. If BMW did change the rod/main bearings (and pump) in mid 2009, what sort of changes did they make? Clearances, materials, oil passages, etc? Did it really make a difference if we are already seeing failures in low mileage 2010's and 2011's?

BMRLVR: thanks for your insight. As a former Porsche mechanic, it is a joy to read your informative and responsible posts!
The bearing clearance data came from an 08' car. BMW don't publish or make bearing clearances easy to come by, even on their technical information system.

I don't believe that there was much of a change to the bearings at all for the 09 model year, many times the reason for part # changes are a result of as change in suppliers. They "may" have changed clearances or bearing composition but I don't have that information.

Generally speaking, when trying to change oil clearance on a journal bearing, the journal diameter itself is changed and not the bearing cross section. I honestly don't think there was a change to oil clearance with the new bearings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Great thread. Finally some interesting content here on the forum...

The politics here are indeed interesting as well.

Gintani: Although you seem to be willing to admit that S/Cing accelerates wear the emphasis in your video itself is that there is a lubrication problem either from clearance/tolerance issues or the oil system itself. This absolutely does not seem fair nor accurate. Sure similar problems have been seen on stock cars but it is very rare. On the flip side it is much more common with a high output SCed car. The problem is simply that the stock motor is DESIGNED perfectly for stock power or bolt on power. For a massive power bump one limitation or another will be experienced in this case you have identified a limitation and it happens to be lubrication related. It does not mean there is any "problem" with the S65.

In particular I find this follow up post immensely misleading:



.................................................. ..................................................



Thanks but I'm absolutely no match for BMRLVR's experience and knowledge on engine internals. We all have our specialties and I know when and where to defer! He is another great asset to the M3post.com community. I'm glad he bought an M3 so that he would have more reason to contribute to this forum.



Right on THE TECH. ImolaMpower: Open mouth insert foot... Even calling BMRLVR a "builder" indicates you still don't quite understand what he does. He works for a very high tech diesel OEM engine manufacturer. These guys are immensely concerned about longevity and need immensely high torque engines. The tradeoffs they must balance on cost and technology vs. power and longevity are the same ones any engine manufacturer must confront.

This is a basic SYSTEMS problem. If the bearing clearances are adjusted to handle the higher power and power levels are then taken to 1000+ hp the next in line failure will occur, might be structural or perhaps another oil related failure. Fix that and the next weakness can be exposed. Short cutting all of the weaknesses in advance at any given power level is where the experience, expertise and professional engineering fully comes into play. Increases in power beyond typical bolt ons simply must be accompanied by additional modifications to maintain longevity. The "pay to play" attitude comes from folks more or less sneaking by on the wonderful/large failure margins built into such engines by the talented M engine team. Again once those margins are used up the next weakest link will be exposed and the process will be repeated.

I appreciate the compliments swamp!!!

I don't actually work for an OEM, but since the company I work for has one of the largest fleets of heavy equipment in the world we get to work extensively with the OEM's and participate in their failure analysis investigations. We also help them with testing and development on prototypes that are years away from market.
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      02-28-2012, 11:17 PM   #105
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Quote:
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I don't actually work for an OEM, but since the company I work for has one of the largest fleets of heavy equipment in the world we get to work extensively with the OEM's and participate in their failure analysis investigations. We also help them with testing and development on prototypes that are years away from market.
Sorry misunderstood that. Either way I wanted to point out the incorrect nature of the other persons characterization of you as an engine "builder". May be a compliment to some but it is not at all what you do for a living! Furthermore the reports you have access to are straight from the sources, these giant IC engine OEMs who understand this much better than all of us here.
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      02-29-2012, 12:20 AM   #106
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wow...nice video and explanation Alex.

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      02-29-2012, 12:55 AM   #107
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Quote:
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They all used 10w60. Only motor that was different was early e39 m5
Early S54 motors back in 01 came with 5w30.

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      02-29-2012, 02:10 AM   #108
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Quote:
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wow...nice video and explanation Alex.

BMWJones
Obviously you have no idea, this video explains nothing in my opinion. A good video would explain the cause of the issue rather than just saying there "is a lack of lubrication"

The video would be much better and more useful it has said something like:

"We have measured the oil clearance on the main and rod bearings and found it to be too tight. This insufficient clearance is allowing metal to metal contact within the bearings."

OR

"We have found that the oil pump output is insufficient and this lack of volume is not maintaining sufficient oil supply to the main and rod bearings. This lack of oil volume is either not allowing the hydrodynamic lubrication of the main and rod bearings to fully develop or to be maintained at higher engine loads and speeds."

*** Please note the statements above are totally random and not related to Gintani in any way........ They are just examples of possible explanations!!!
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      02-29-2012, 03:32 PM   #109
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The only take away I got from the video was this:

It's not our fault, it's BMWs fault.

Not much science presented in the video.

There did seem to be a wealth of information following the video though. I also read (within this thread) about
similar failures on stock cars being mentioned. Any forum members have links to these stock engine failures?
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      02-29-2012, 05:14 PM   #110
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After watching the video all I got to take away from it is that the engine failure on Drew's car was not "their fault".

...good marketing after the complete loss of credibility on this board in years past.
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