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      01-18-2012, 10:05 AM   #67
ImolaMpower
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SehrSchnell View Post
I'd watch my tone, especially since you have that fancy signature. People might confuse you with an angry defensive Gintani rep - which I believe you are not. In case you are a rep - see my first sentence.
Fixed it to prevent any confusion.
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      01-18-2012, 10:13 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImolaMpower View Post
I understand you're an engine builder and have great knowledge of engines. Particularly Cat, Cummins, and Detroit Diesel. However, and not to sound rude, but BMW S65's are not mentioned anywhere in your background.
What you have to understand is Gintani has been studying and testing this particular engine, the S65, for the last 4 years or so. They've experienced the failure for themselves and they've accepted the challenges faced with boosting these motors. I'm positive they've not only spent the time but definitely the money on R&D as well. Believe me when I say this, these guys love what they do and their intentions are great. They have not kept their research and findings a secret and have even provided us with a short video describing a few points they've obtained from real life testing of the S65.



I understand your intentions are great, nor are you discrediting anyone. Personally, I enjoy reading your posts, they're very informative!
The difference though is that he is speaking from direct experience working with engines and you are attempting to speak on behalf of Gintani by speculating on their possible R&D and/or engine building experience. Just because he is not an S65 builder doesn't mean his experience and/or knowledge should have less credibility.
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      01-18-2012, 10:13 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImolaMpower View Post
Your question was answered twice...







So for the third time...the first set of Rods and Bearings in the video are from Paul Walkers car, which was a Stage 2 kit. The second set belong to Drew's blown motor, which was also a Stage 2 kit.
I was specifically asking regarding the stage 1 kit.... that question was never answered.

By now means am I trying to bash Gentani, I am specifically interested in the limitations of this engine. There are several companies who engineer nice kits on this forum. As they say.... sharing each others information is "for the greater good". Isn't that what this forum is all about?
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      01-18-2012, 10:18 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImolaMpower View Post
I understand you're an engine builder and have great knowledge of engines. Particularly Cat, Cummins, and Detroit Diesel. However, and not to sound rude, but BMW S65's are not mentioned anywhere in your background.
This is complete nonsense. Principles of engine-building carry clear across the spectrum of make & model. Ok, maybe he won't know torque specs off the top of his head but everything else stated by BMRLVR are universal facts.
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      01-18-2012, 11:05 AM   #71
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Maybe a dumb question but is there a way to have a dealer check for wear/potential issues while the engine is still under warranty (stock engine, not SC'ed). Heard several stories of engine problems, many isolated to cyl #5, and it seems like that would be a much easier/less costly preventative step than hoping nothing goes wrong.
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      01-18-2012, 11:19 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nchan50 View Post
Maybe a dumb question but is there a way to have a dealer check for wear/potential issues while the engine is still under warranty (stock engine, not SC'ed). Heard several stories of engine problems, many isolated to cyl #5, and it seems like that would be a much easier/less costly preventative step than hoping nothing goes wrong.
My guess is only by pulling the cap off the #5 connecting rod.
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      01-18-2012, 11:31 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SehrSchnell View Post
Not really, unless they take the motor apart... but I think we should stress that the majority (by a vast margin) of these amazing engines are just fine! We are talking about rare situations here. Most folks will never have any issues.
Understood and agreed. I was just curious how hard it would be for peace of mind (and to avoid being that small % with the problem). Seems like it will actually be quite an effort.
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      01-18-2012, 11:38 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SehrSchnell View Post
Not really, unless they take the motor apart... but I think we should stress that the majority (by a vast margin) of these amazing engines are just fine! We are talking about rare situations here. Most folks will never have any issues.
Concur - don't give in to forum paranoia. Drive that thing like you stole it! ; )
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      01-18-2012, 11:45 AM   #75
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Great vid and thanks for the explanation too.
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      01-18-2012, 12:40 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nchan50
Maybe a dumb question but is there a way to have a dealer check for wear/potential issues while the engine is still under warranty (stock engine, not SC'ed). Heard several stories of engine problems, many isolated to cyl #5, and it seems like that would be a much easier/less costly preventative step than hoping nothing goes wrong.
It would be at your expense
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      01-18-2012, 03:37 PM   #77
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Awesome video guys. Very informative and something I will pass along to my customers!
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      01-18-2012, 04:18 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nchan50 View Post
Maybe a dumb question but is there a way to have a dealer check for wear/potential issues while the engine is still under warranty (stock engine, not SC'ed). Heard several stories of engine problems, many isolated to cyl #5, and it seems like that would be a much easier/less costly preventative step than hoping nothing goes wrong.
I believe BMRLVR already covered this in a way. See bold below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Well, the news is not good but it is also not necessarily all bad!

You see, most of the engines that are running around out there at stock output and even full bolt on output of about 460-480 BHP will most likely be fine. You see if there are no issues with the engines in the first 20,000 or so miles, there most likely will never be an issue.

When engines are extensively modified with superchargers and ran at the ragged edge of the cylinder pressures that the stock block can take, this is where the issues will start to manifest themselves. Proper adjustments to the oil clearances at the main and rod bearings will make for a very strong bottom end. The stock connecting rods are a very nice piece and extremely strong for an OEM piece, however IMO I think that they are the weakest link in the S65 rotating assembly. The crank is a beautiful forged piece right out of the box, the bed plate is extremely over engineered, and the pistons and pins appear to be holding up fine under high power applications.

Set up with the right clearances I think that the stock bottom end will be able to handle 800-1000 HP with ease and maybe even more. The key to getting this engine to handle this kind of power is to get a good machine shop to check and machine the main bearing bores and crankshaft (if machining is even required). Next, a good engine builder needs to specify the clearances that he knows will work, and get a set of bearings that will meet spec (that may be hard in this application though) or resize the crank journals so that you end up with the clearance that the engine needs to be reliable under extreme usage. Finally the bottom end needs to be assembled and all measurements need to be checked and rechecked to ensure everything is within spec. Once this is all done I am quite confident that everything will be golden!
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      01-24-2012, 01:27 PM   #79
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This has been a great discussion and is the kind of information I'd like to see more of. A quick Google search turned up the following, which I found useful.

http://www.clevite.com/techbulletins/CL77-1-205R.pdf

http://catalog.mahleclevite.com/bearing/

Last edited by Quattro98; 01-24-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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      01-24-2012, 02:25 PM   #80
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From VAC Motorsports:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@VAC View Post
We have an S65 in for stroker build. Just got it apart today...and the bearings are ugly. Pics soon. Car was stock and driven reasonably.
This are getting interesting?!
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      01-24-2012, 03:24 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC
From VAC Motorsports:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@VAC View Post
We have an S65 in for stroker build. Just got it apart today...and the bearings are ugly. Pics soon. Car was stock and driven reasonably.
This are getting interesting?!
Oh boy..... Things do tend to repeat themselves
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      01-24-2012, 03:44 PM   #82
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Great vid. What is it with BMW and rod bearing issues?
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      01-25-2012, 12:12 AM   #83
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I noticed that most high revving BMW m motors except those used for Turbo application require special castrol 10w60. Its very possible that
during an oil change an improper oil viscosity was used and sheared until it offered inadequate Lubrication protection resulting in bearing failure.

All BMW engines ran fine with 5w30 10w30, but as soon as the s54 started to have rod bearing failure the spec changed to 10w60 castrol tws which provides superior protection properties for these specific high revving motors such as the s54,s65,s85. I don't think any other oil can be used safely. I also think the additive package in the oil is just as important as the oil viscosity.
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      01-25-2012, 01:09 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apme123 View Post
I noticed that most high revving BMW m motors except those used for Turbo application require special castrol 10w60. Its very possible that
during an oil change an improper oil viscosity was used and sheared until it offered inadequate Lubrication protection resulting in bearing failure.

All BMW engines ran fine with 5w30 10w30, but as soon as the s54 started to have rod bearing failure the spec changed to 10w60 castrol tws which provides superior protection properties for these specific high revving motors such as the s54,s65,s85. I don't think any other oil can be used safely.
They all used 10w60. Only motor that was different was early e39 m5
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      01-25-2012, 01:17 AM   #85
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Quote:
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They all used 10w60. Only motor that was different was early e39 m5
All regular BMW production motors such as the m54 n52 n54 n55 m52 ask for 0w30 5w30 10w30. Just saying the high revving BMW m-series motors do indeed spec castrol tws 10w60. A 60 weight oil will be much less suspectible to shearing then a 30 weight oil.
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      01-25-2012, 01:23 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apme123 View Post
All regular BMW production motors such as the m54 n52 n54 n55 m52 ask for 0w30 5w30 10w30. Just saying the high revving BMW m-series motors do indeed spec castrol tws 10w60. A 60 weight oil will be much less suspectible to shearing then a 30 weight oil.
regular production n and m generation use 5w30, s generation uses 10w60. really old like e34 e32's used mineral oil which most dealers just put in 5w30 synthetic anyways cause its stupid to stock 1 case of mineral oil ha!
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      01-25-2012, 01:36 AM   #87
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regular production n and m generation use 5w30, s generation uses 10w60. really old like e34 e32's used mineral oil which most dealers just put in 5w30 synthetic anyways cause its stupid to stock 1 case of mineral oil ha!
Don't forget the s14 that speced 15w50
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      01-25-2012, 03:01 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbauer View Post
Oh boy..... Things do tend to repeat themselves
More info from VAC Motorsports tear down of a stock motor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@VAC View Post
More soon. 7 and 8 are pretty damn bad too.


This problem is looking to be the real deal.
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