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      01-15-2012, 09:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN View Post
I thought Paul's car was a stage 2 and they found the ''wear''
Correct, Paul's car was a stage 2.
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      01-15-2012, 09:16 PM   #46
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so your saying its just a matter of time b4 all our motors let go? lol
Definitely not. They're just saying in the cases that these motors have failed, this was the issue they found to be the cause.
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      01-15-2012, 09:34 PM   #47
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To ImolaMpower: If lack of lubrication was the issue that caused the rod stretch the rod would have been discolored from the heat. All of the rods, even the broken rod from Drew's engine showed no sign of discoloration from excessive heat.

By looking at your signature you may have a biased opinion. Please be diplomatic and unbiased when posting in this thread. I have many years of building engines and have seen many failures. Through our failure analysis reports from, Cat, Cummins, and Detroit Diesel they have never cited the cause of a stretched rod as a heat issue. Stretched rods we have seen have been a result of either, improper torquing on installation, defective fasteners, or overloading (Forces exceeding the design spec of the parts e.g.: Excessive cylinder pressures, excessive engine RPM). If you think that heat were an issue causing these failures, please realize that you would have engine oil breakdown and then seizure long before the metallurgical composition of the rod was compromised and weakened.

Lack of lubrication can cause a heat and wear issue which can lead to a failure, however, in cases of lack of lubrication the discoloration of the crank journal, rod, and bearing is very easy to spot and is usually noticed at first glance.

One final point of interest is that a rod that fails due to overspeeding/overloading usually breaks close to the wrist pin as Drew's engine did.

*PLEASE NOTE: My intention here is not to attack or discredit anyone or any vendor. I am sharing knowledge that have been gained from technical training and work experience so that it can benefit the the entire community!
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      01-16-2012, 11:04 AM   #48
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Great info that is spot on from BMRLVR
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      01-16-2012, 02:10 PM   #49
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oil starvation on the track? increased loads meaning less adequate oiling and higher temps. theyre all related to the lowered lifespan of the engine.
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      01-16-2012, 02:26 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
oil starvation on the track? increased loads meaning less adequate oiling and higher temps. theyre all related to the lowered lifespan of the engine.
Agreed minus starvation on the track. The dual oil pump in the S65 is capable of 1.4G's without starvation.
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      01-16-2012, 03:01 PM   #51
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Agreed minus starvation on the track. The dual oil pump in the S65 is capable of 1.4G's without starvation.
starvation on track doesnt happen only because the pump isnt strong enough. it can also happen when the oil doesnt get to the feeds for the pump in the oil pan. Just another possibility. I wish they left it as a dry sump when they lopped off the two cylinders from the v10..
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      01-16-2012, 03:16 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by zsapphire7 View Post
starvation on track doesnt happen only because the pump isnt strong enough. it can also happen when the oil doesnt get to the feeds for the pump in the oil pan. Just another possibility. I wish they left it as a dry sump when they lopped off the two cylinders from the v10..
From the horses mouth-

"The duocentric design of the oil return pump ensures that oil is always available at the inlet of the main oil pump in the rear of the oil pan, even when braking sharply at high speeds."

"The oil supply is also guaranteed at extreme longitudinal and lateral accelerations of up to 1.4 times normal gravitation acceleration"
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      01-16-2012, 04:17 PM   #53
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Even though BMW does not publish the info or give any recommendations on the oil clearance specs for the mains and rods, have been able to obtain the clearance measurements from a reliable source.

Based on these numbers that I have been able to obtain, I can now with a high degree of certainty, deduce that any bearing problems on the S65 are due to insufficient factory oil clearance specs. Not any issue with oil pumps and bearings. Basically IMO these engines are assembled too tight.
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      01-16-2012, 04:22 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Even though BMW does not publish the info or give any recommendations on the oil clearance specs for the mains and rods, have been able to obtain the clearance measurements from a reliable source.

Based on these numbers that I have been able to obtain, I can now with a high degree of certainty, deduce that any bearing problems on the S65 are due to insufficient factory oil clearance specs. Not any issue with oil pumps and bearings. Basically IMO these engines are assembled too tight.
That is not good news.
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      01-16-2012, 10:04 PM   #55
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That is not good news.
Well, the news is not good but it is also not necessarily all bad!

You see, most of the engines that are running around out there at stock output and even full bolt on output of about 460-480 BHP will most likely be fine. You see if there are no issues with the engines in the first 20,000 or so miles, there most likely will never be an issue.

When engines are extensively modified with superchargers and ran at the ragged edge of the cylinder pressures that the stock block can take, this is where the issues will start to manifest themselves. Proper adjustments to the oil clearances at the main and rod bearings will make for a very strong bottom end. The stock connecting rods are a very nice piece and extremely strong for an OEM piece, however IMO I think that they are the weakest link in the S65 rotating assembly. The crank is a beautiful forged piece right out of the box, the bed plate is extremely over engineered, and the pistons and pins appear to be holding up fine under high power applications.

Set up with the right clearances I think that the stock bottom end will be able to handle 800-1000 HP with ease and maybe even more. The key to getting this engine to handle this kind of power is to get a good machine shop to check and machine the main bearing bores and crankshaft (if machining is even required). Next, a good engine builder needs to specify the clearances that he knows will work, and get a set of bearings that will meet spec (that may be hard in this application though) or resize the crank journals so that you end up with the clearance that the engine needs to be reliable under extreme usage. Finally the bottom end needs to be assembled and all measurements need to be checked and rechecked to ensure everything is within spec. Once this is all done I am quite confident that everything will be golden!
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      01-16-2012, 10:37 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Well, the news is not good but it is also not necessarily all bad!

You see, most of the engines that are running around out there at stock output and even full bolt on output of about 460-480 BHP will most likely be fine. You see if there are no issues with the engines in the first 20,000 or so miles, there most likely will never be an issue.

When engines are extensively modified with superchargers and ran at the ragged edge of the cylinder pressures that the stock block can take, this is where the issues will start to manifest themselves. Proper adjustments to the oil clearances at the main and rod bearings will make for a very strong bottom end. The stock connecting rods are a very nice piece and extremely strong for an OEM piece, however IMO I think that they are the weakest link in the S65 rotating assembly. The crank is a beautiful forged piece right out of the box, the bed plate is extremely over engineered, and the pistons and pins appear to be holding up fine under high power applications.

Set up with the right clearances I think that the stock bottom end will be able to handle 800-1000 HP with ease and maybe even more. The key to getting this engine to handle this kind of power is to get a good machine shop to check and machine the main bearing bores and crankshaft (if machining is even required). Next, a good engine builder needs to specify the clearances that he knows will work, and get a set of bearings that will meet spec (that may be hard in this application though) or resize the crank journals so that you end up with the clearance that the engine needs to be reliable under extreme usage. Finally the bottom end needs to be assembled and all measurements need to be checked and rechecked to ensure everything is within spec. Once this is all done I am quite confident that everything will be golden!
...that's it? I thought it was going to be something really hard?

Seriously, excellent info!
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      01-16-2012, 11:00 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Well, the news is not good but it is also not necessarily all bad!

You see, most of the engines that are running around out there at stock output and even full bolt on output of about 460-480 BHP will most likely be fine. You see if there are no issues with the engines in the first 20,000 or so miles, there most likely will never be an issue.

When engines are extensively modified with superchargers and ran at the ragged edge of the cylinder pressures that the stock block can take, this is where the issues will start to manifest themselves. Proper adjustments to the oil clearances at the main and rod bearings will make for a very strong bottom end. The stock connecting rods are a very nice piece and extremely strong for an OEM piece, however IMO I think that they are the weakest link in the S65 rotating assembly. The crank is a beautiful forged piece right out of the box, the bed plate is extremely over engineered, and the pistons and pins appear to be holding up fine under high power applications.

Set up with the right clearances I think that the stock bottom end will be able to handle 800-1000 HP with ease and maybe even more. The key to getting this engine to handle this kind of power is to get a good machine shop to check and machine the main bearing bores and crankshaft (if machining is even required). Next, a good engine builder needs to specify the clearances that he knows will work, and get a set of bearings that will meet spec (that may be hard in this application though) or resize the crank journals so that you end up with the clearance that the engine needs to be reliable under extreme usage. Finally the bottom end needs to be assembled and all measurements need to be checked and rechecked to ensure everything is within spec. Once this is all done I am quite confident that everything will be golden!



And,Thanks Alex for sharing !
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      01-16-2012, 11:51 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
...that's it? I thought it was going to be something really hard?

Seriously, excellent info!
Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post



And,Thanks Alex for sharing !
PG has actually already had his main and rod bearing oil clearance adjusted on his 4.7 Stroker. Stewart Van Dyne of Van Dyne Engineering (Formerly of Drake Engineering) personally assembled PG's engine and uncovered the tight tolerances some time ago. Stewart is one of the world's premier engine builders and if he thinks PG's engine will be fine with the clearances adjusted, IT WILL BE FINE!!!

The fact that OEM oiling system has been retained and not uncovered by Stewart as a weak point of the engine is good enough for me.

As for the clearances used, I will not disclose that info, an engine builder should be able to determine the proper clearance for an engine based on knowledge, engineering data, and experience.

I have a fair bit of time and experience working on engines but I am by no means anywhere near the calibre of Stewart. I am glad however, that my first hunch of oil clearance issues turned out to be true. If Stewart Van Dyne is satisfied the changes will make for a reliable engine that is good enough for me!

When I finally do a stroker engine, I know one thing I am going to specifically ask for, an adjusted oil clearance on all main and rod bearings. Hopefully Dinan will humour my request, if not, I guess Van Dyne Engineering will be building my engine!

http://www.vandyneengineering.com/

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=386602
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      01-16-2012, 11:53 PM   #59
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lot of informative info in this thread!

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      01-16-2012, 11:58 PM   #60
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One of the most informative posts from one man ever. (look out swamp) Seriously, I am going to go out and buy a model engine right now and start learning this shit. Awesome BMRLVR, you da man!
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      01-17-2012, 12:55 AM   #61
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Gintani, I am still curious have you found the same bearing wear in your stage 1 kits? You havent replied?
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      01-17-2012, 03:28 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
...that's it? I thought it was going to be something really hard?

Seriously, excellent info!
Quote:
Originally Posted by img View Post



And,Thanks Alex for sharing !
PG has actually already had his main and rod bearing oil clearance adjusted on his 4.7 Stroker. Stewart Van Dyne of Van Dyne Engineering (Formerly of Drake Engineering) personally assembled PG's engine and uncovered the tight tolerances some time ago. Stewart is one of the world's premier engine builders and if he thinks PG's engine will be fine with the clearances adjusted, IT WILL BE FINE!!!

The fact that OEM oiling system has been retained and not uncovered by Stewart as a weak point of the engine is good enough for me.

As for the clearances used, I will not disclose that info, an engine builder should be able to determine the proper clearance for an engine based on knowledge, engineering data, and experience.

I have a fair bit of time and experience working on engines but I am by no means anywhere near the calibre of Stewart. I am glad however, that my first hunch of oil clearance issues turned out to be true. If Stewart Van Dyne is satisfied the changes will make for a reliable engine that is good enough for me!

When I finally do a stroker engine, I know one thing I am going to specifically ask for, an adjusted oil clearance on all main and rod bearings. Hopefully Dinan will humour my request, if not, I guess Van Dyne Engineering will be building my engine!

http://www.vandyneengineering.com/

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=386602
I went looking for the OEM specs.... The radial clearance is missing on the S65 and S85. The S63T B44 was 0.020-0.046 mm. I have measured .030 on a couple BMW engines. I would ask Gintani what they found but it looks like they are not interested in answering anyone's questions.....???
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      01-17-2012, 11:48 PM   #63
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0.020mm to 0.046mm is 0.00079in to 0.00181in when converted to imperial measure. That clearance, even at the max would still be too tight IMO. The measurements on the S65 fell within that range as well!
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      01-18-2012, 09:03 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbauer View Post
Gintani, I am still curious have you found the same bearing wear in your stage 1 kits? You havent replied?
Your question was answered twice...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene-TAIWAN View Post
I thought Paul's car was a stage 2 and they found the ''wear''

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImolaMpower View Post
Correct, Paul's car was a stage 2.
So for the third time...the first set of Rods and Bearings in the video are from Paul Walkers car, which was a Stage 2 kit. The second set belong to Drew's blown motor, which was also a Stage 2 kit.
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      01-18-2012, 09:37 AM   #65
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learned a lot of great stuff in this thread! thanks Gintani and everyone else who contributed!
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      01-18-2012, 09:59 AM   #66
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Quote:
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To ImolaMpower: If lack of lubrication was the issue that caused the rod stretch the rod would have been discolored from the heat. All of the rods, even the broken rod from Drew's engine showed no sign of discoloration from excessive heat.
They do show signs of wear/discoloring underneath the bearing, might be difficult to see in the video. I've briefly seen these rods and bearings in person and from what I recall they weren't exactly spotless.

The rods did in fact stretch and some S65's do in fact have an issue with bearing lubrication. I just put the to facts together and it made sense to me. Others will beg to differ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
By looking at your signature you may have a biased opinion. Please be diplomatic and unbiased when posting in this thread. I have many years of building engines and have seen many failures. Through our failure analysis reports from, Cat, Cummins, and Detroit Diesel they have never cited the cause of a stretched rod as a heat issue. Stretched rods we have seen have been a result of either, improper torquing on installation, defective fasteners, or overloading (Forces exceeding the design spec of the parts e.g.: Excessive cylinder pressures, excessive engine RPM). If you think that heat were an issue causing these failures, please realize that you would have engine oil breakdown and then seizure long before the metallurgical composition of the rod was compromised and weakened.
I have no reason to be biased. I don't get paid to do this.

I understand you're an engine builder and have great knowledge of engines. Particularly Cat, Cummins, and Detroit Diesel. However, and not to sound rude, but BMW S65's are not mentioned anywhere in your background.
What you have to understand is Gintani has been studying and testing this particular engine, the S65, for the last 4 years or so. They've experienced the failure for themselves and they've accepted the challenges faced with boosting these motors. I'm positive they've not only spent the time but definitely the money on R&D as well. Believe me when I say this, these guys love what they do and their intentions are great. They have not kept their research and findings a secret and have even provided us with a short video describing a few points they've obtained from real life testing of the S65.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Lack of lubrication can cause a heat and wear issue which can lead to a failure, however, in cases of lack of lubrication the discoloration of the crank journal, rod, and bearing is very easy to spot and is usually noticed at first glance.

One final point of interest is that a rod that fails due to overspeeding/overloading usually breaks close to the wrist pin as Drew's engine did.

*PLEASE NOTE: My intention here is not to attack or discredit anyone or any vendor. I am sharing knowledge that have been gained from technical training and work experience so that it can benefit the the entire community!
I understand your intentions are great, nor are you discrediting anyone. Personally, I enjoy reading your posts, they're very informative!
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