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      12-19-2011, 04:16 AM   #1
wisesoul
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E46 M3 ZCP Vs. E92 M3 DCT



I found this race much closer than I thought! Any explanation for this? Was expecting the E92 to trounce the E46 but they are evenly matched!
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      12-19-2011, 04:20 AM   #2
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Not a chance. I have raced my buddies e46 m3 with exhaust intake tune and some other mods I forget and I put at least 4.5 lengths on him. I was also only shifting at 6.5-7 because I wasn't fully done breaking it in. I'm also bone stock and 6 spd
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      12-19-2011, 07:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisesoul View Post


I found this race much closer than I thought! Any explanation for this? Was expecting the E92 to trounce the E46 but they are evenly matched!
I've seen this; it was posted some where else, or another forum.

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Not a chance. I have raced my buddies e46 m3 with exhaust intake tune and some other mods I forget and I put at least 4.5 lengths on him. I was also only shifting at 6.5-7 because I wasn't fully done breaking it in. I'm also bone stock and 6 spd
It's gearing. On the 40 mph or whatever pull, the E46 M3 just has quicker gears. From a stop, we know the E92 M3 would take the E46 M3... and if they hit anywhere over 100-120 mph... that V8 is taking over and dominating. Only chance the E46 M3 has is if it goes S/C or turbo. Or be as hardcore as dropping the cars weight under 3k lbs and have every single N/A bolt on to have a lower power to weight ratio than the E92 M3. And even the, the V8 just has an advantage at high speeds.... depending on the E46 M3s PSI.

Now if you S/C; turbo; or drop the weight and have all N/A bolt-ons, on the E46 M3 and go around a track... it's a drivers race. That all can be had for around half the price, or less, of an E92 M3.

I love my E46 m3. But, the E92 M3 is sexy too and has a V8... that madda facka is badass!
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      12-19-2011, 08:30 AM   #4
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Man the E46 M3 is such a sexy looking car!!
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      12-19-2011, 09:28 AM   #5
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I found this race much closer than I thought! Any explanation for this? Was expecting the E92 to trounce the E46 but they are evenly matched!
That race isnt the norm.

My 1st e36 m3 was every bolt on possible. Full Supersprint Race exhaust, Gruppe M intake, custom tune, pulleys, and the biggest difference the 4.10 rear diff, and that car was quick but still couldnt run with a stock e92 m3.

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      12-19-2011, 10:14 AM   #6
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That race isnt the norm.

Mt 1st e36 m3 was every bolt on possible. Full Supersprint Race exhaust, Gruppe M intake, custom tune, pulleys, and the biggest difference the 4.10 rear diff, and that car was quick but still couldnt run with a stock e92 m3.

G

Well, like I noted.... Unless he drops over 400 lbs off the car with all bolt-ons or S/C or turbos, the E46 M3 doesn't stand a chance straight line. Power to weight is way off comparing the two.

And the E36 M3 is quite a bit slower than the E46 M3, unless turbo charged.

Stock E92 M3 power: 414 BHP
Modified E46 M3 power (guessed): 375 BHP

Stock E92 M3 Power to weight (average E92 M3= 3544 lbs): 8.56 lbs/ BHP
Modifed E46 M3 (as above) Power to weight (average E46 M3= 3415 lbs): 9.11 lbs/ BHP

Power to weight is close, but no close enough apparently. Around a track might be a different story, but we will never know.

There is no replacement for displacement...

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      12-19-2011, 10:19 AM   #7
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Topic aside, that e46M3 looks GOOOOOODDDD.....
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      12-19-2011, 10:54 AM   #8
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This shouldn't surprise anyone. The power to weight ratio in these two cars is very very close. 0.246 in the E92 and 0.215 in the E46. That, to me, is close enough to allow driving skill, tires, things like that, to actually affect the outcome. That the E92 is leaps and bounds quicker than the E46 is strictly marketing.
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      12-19-2011, 11:32 AM   #9
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Quote:
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This shouldn't surprise anyone. The power to weight ratio in these two cars is very very close. 0.246 in the E92 and 0.215 in the E46. That, to me, is close enough to allow driving skill, tires, things like that, to actually affect the outcome. That the E92 is leaps and bounds quicker than the E46 is strictly marketing.
A roughly 15% difference in power to weight translates to a significant difference in acceleration - on the order of five percent or so. Road tests of the E46 showed quarter-mile times in the mid 13s at around 107-108 mph, while the E9X times are clustered in the mid-to-upper 12s, at 112-114 mph.

In a quarter mile, we're talking perhaps eight car lengths, with the V8 car basically loping away at the finish line.

Around these here parts, that's pretty much getting killed - or "leaps and bounds", if you prefer.

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      12-19-2011, 11:33 AM   #10
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watch the m5board races where the e92 absolutely romps the csl in a straight line so somehting is off with this video. The m5board race is also from about 40mph and the e92 jumps out and kills it the entire race. You can also watch other races on their of a z4m v. a rs4 , rs4 v csl and that same rs4 v. the e92 m3 and can see based on all those races the m3 kills all of them, let alone a regular m3. I mean it has 80 hp more and only weighs 200 pounds or so more. It should be winning. Plus it has an extra gear if dct.
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      12-19-2011, 01:21 PM   #11
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How heavy is the E92 passenger?..
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      12-19-2011, 02:52 PM   #12
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As much as I like the e92/e90, the e46 is still the best looking. The current car looks like a chic car.
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      12-19-2011, 07:36 PM   #13
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The current car just needs GTR panels all around... :P then it will look mean!
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      12-19-2011, 09:52 PM   #14
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i have seen the video awhile back, and i was like wtf..
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      12-19-2011, 11:26 PM   #15
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What your seeing looks right to me, given the circumstances.


They are hardly accelerating for more than 60mph... 40 to the top of 3rd, IIRC 102mph in an stock E46M3.
In both races, one of the cars even lets off before the top of that gear (E46 in the 1st run and E92M in the second due to traffic)

Also, there is a passenger. Some people don't take into account how much this affects things. Two of the same cars from my experience could be as far apart as 2-3 car lengths after a 40-120mph run if one had a passenger and one did not..
A 1/4 mile argument was made in terms of speed which was kind of mis-leading. If a stock E46 M3 can run 13.2@106, and a stock E92 M3 can do 12.6@114 regardless of end speed, the distance separating them, as distance is more a factor of time NOT end velocity (the acceleration velocity is not constant) is not going to be "8.5" car lengths... It will be more like 2-3+, and we have a passenger in the E92 M3 here

Also, even though it's not stated, it looks as if the E46 M3 took an ever so slight jump. Either that or it's strictly a gearing/peak torque advantage speed for the E46M. 40 is a gear speed to race from in an S54 powered car, that's right where it peaks torque.

Regardless after only 50mph of accelerating one could tell the E92 M3 was beginning to pull significantly and then they shut it down. The truth here is that the E92 is still a faster car, and much faster at triple digits but in "real world" applications at somewhat "acceptable" public road type speeds, the advantage can easily be watered down by a few factors.
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      12-20-2011, 12:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
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...A 1/4 mile argument was made in terms of speed which was kind of mis-leading. If a stock E46 M3 can run 13.2@106, and a stock E92 M3 can do 12.6@114 regardless of end speed, the distance separating them, as distance is more a factor of time NOT end velocity (the acceleration velocity is not constant) is not going to be "8.5" car lengths... It will be more like 2-3+, and we have a passenger in the E92 M3 here...
You've made the E46 quicker than the magazine times, while keeping the E9X roughly where the magazines put it.

OK, fair enough, but with the six tenths between them and the E46 going 106, let's say that car picks up speed at eight mph per second near the finish line, so in six tenths of a second it will pick up about five mph, meaning it was going 101 mph when the E9X finished. Further figure it averaged about 103.5 mph for that duration, which is a bit over 90 feet.

90 feet is about six car lengths, using your ET estimates and trap speed for the E46.

If we use the more "normal" magazine average for the E46 at around 13.5 seconds, we're looking at around nine car lengths, using your ET for the E9X.

This ain't rocket science.

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      12-20-2011, 12:46 PM   #17
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You've made the E46 quicker than the magazine times, while keeping the E9X roughly where the magazines put it.
Rather than calculate it, I just based it off my results actually running the cars in the 1/4 mile. I tend to use real world experience rather than calculate numbers which can get me caught up in debates (healthy debates) on forums as results on paper only offer numbers on paper to me.

At the same track, in similar but not the exact same conditions me and my friends pulled off a 12.7@110 in a stock DCT E92 M3 and 13.0@106 in a stock E46 M3. Moseley's time is verified here on the board.
At a different track in a different stock E46 M3 we got 13.3@104.5, but the DA was much higher and the temperature was hotter.These E46's were 6 speed cars on 18" wheels, rather then the 30 series 19" tires which offer very little sideway flex which is crucial for a good launch.

My only real point is saying 6 or 8+ car lengths to me in that short of a distance, having run the two cars, is what i've only seen from a hole shot advantage from the E92 M3. I've also never seen a stock one trap higher than 110, but i'm sure it would be possible in dryer climate then the humid southeast.
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      12-20-2011, 03:04 PM   #18
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Rather than calculate it, I just based it off my results actually running the cars in the 1/4 mile. I tend to use real world experience rather than calculate numbers which can get me caught up in debates (healthy debates) on forums as results on paper only offer numbers on paper to me.
Look, you said: "If a stock E46 M3 can run 13.2@106, and a stock E92 M3 can do 12.6@114 regardless of end speed, the distance separating them, as distance is more a factor of time NOT end velocity (the acceleration velocity is not constant) is not going to be "8.5" car lengths... It will be more like 2-3+"

That simply isn't true. Six tenths at these speeds is about six car lengths, as already spelled out.

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At the same track, in similar but not the exact same conditions me and my friends pulled off a 12.7@110 in a stock DCT E92 M3 and 13.0@106 in a stock E46 M3. Moseley's time is verified here on the board.
At a different track in a different stock E46 M3 we got 13.3@104.5, but the DA was much higher and the temperature was hotter.These E46's were 6 speed cars on 18" wheels, rather then the 30 series 19" tires which offer very little sideway flex which is crucial for a good launch.
I have to say that a 13.0 on stock six-speed E46 is terrific! Ours never got better than the thirteen teens at 107, which I thought was pretty good at the time.

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My only real point is saying 6 or 8+ car lengths to me in that short of a distance, having run the two cars, is what i've only seen from a hole shot advantage from the E92 M3. I've also never seen a stock one trap higher than 110, but i'm sure it would be possible in dryer climate then the humid southeast.
Taking "average" magazine times is no less applicable than what you've personally experienced, and I've already shown that those indicate something around eight car lengths.

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      12-20-2011, 03:45 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
A roughly 15% difference in power to weight translates to a significant difference in acceleration - on the order of five percent or so. Road tests of the E46 showed quarter-mile times in the mid 13s at around 107-108 mph, while the E9X times are clustered in the mid-to-upper 12s, at 112-114 mph.

In a quarter mile, we're talking perhaps eight car lengths, with the V8 car basically loping away at the finish line.

Around these here parts, that's pretty much getting killed - or "leaps and bounds", if you prefer.

Bruce
Very few e46 m3s Ive every seen (owned 2 of them myself) trapped that high. Avg mag trap was about 105 and avg of real world strip is probably 103 mph. Most mags have the e9x m3 running avg of 112 mph and real world is about 110 mph from my experience. Either way, both substaniate a significant difference in favor of the e9x m3 by 6-8 lengths.
If the e9x can pull on a csl the way it did, no way a plain old e46 stands a chance.

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      12-20-2011, 06:45 PM   #20
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Look, you said: "If a stock E46 M3 can run 13.0@106, and a stock E92 M3 can do 12.6@114 regardless of end speed, the distance separating them, as distance is more a factor of time NOT end velocity (the acceleration velocity is not constant) is not going to be "8.5" car lengths... It will be more like 2-3+"

That simply isn't true. Six tenths at these speeds is about six car lengths, as already spelled out.



Bruce
Fixed it for you. My bad.

The record for a stock E46 M3, is 12.7@107.7.
U.S spec early model car.
The record for an E92 M3 is 12.4@114.9
Both could have lower E.T's with a optimal tire set up. I'm not sure if these two still stand but they both did for more than a few years.

If there's a strong running E92 M3 that's dead stock running 12.60's @ the tracks in the S.E then i'll be right behind it running 13 dead in an strong running E46 M3. No questions.
If the conditions yield 13.0-13.2@105-108 for the E9x, a very common average time vs. a 12.6-12.7@110+ (assuming avg.2.0 short times) at the tracks around here, then again, the same average joe should be in the 13.3-13.5 area@102-105 area in the E46.


If you think 6-8.5 car lengths separates the two on average (same conditions/drivers), you should feed your delusions by some seat time.
Arguing one car runs .2ths faster then it's record and another car is close to a second away from its record is just a biased argument.
However, I feel like you just want to correct my numbers you can quickly regurgitate, which was not my point from the start (why I was careless with the math) and is my mistake
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      12-21-2011, 11:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onurleft View Post
Fixed it for you. My bad.

The record for a stock E46 M3, is 12.7@107.7.
U.S spec early model car.
The record for an E92 M3 is 12.4@114.9
Both could have lower E.T's with a optimal tire set up. I'm not sure if these two still stand but they both did for more than a few years.

If there's a strong running E92 M3 that's dead stock running 12.60's @ the tracks in the S.E then i'll be right behind it running 13 dead in an strong running E46 M3. No questions.
If the conditions yield 13.0-13.2@105-108 for the E9x, a very common average time vs. a 12.6-12.7@110+ (assuming avg.2.0 short times) at the tracks around here, then again, the same average joe should be in the 13.3-13.5 area@102-105 area in the E46.


If you think 6-8.5 car lengths separates the two on average (same conditions/drivers), you should feed your delusions by some seat time.
Arguing one car runs .2ths faster then it's record and another car is close to a second away from its record is just a biased argument.
However, I feel like you just want to correct my numbers you can quickly regurgitate, which was not my point from the start (why I was careless with the math) and is my mistake
OK, I give. Seriously.

I just looked up some E46 magazine times, and they're all in the low 13s, at 106-107 mph. 13.1 best.

Sheesh, my bad, and I apologize. Apparently I'm aging less than gracefully.

Anecdotally though, I was at Maple Grove Raceway earlier this year, and watched an E92 auto go 12.23, at just over 114. OK, it was a very good day, with DA at below 300 feet, but the real secret (looked the guy up later) was that the car just before him was a pro modified, and he lined up square in the middle of that guy's burnout patch.

Guy said he just gunned it, and the result was a 1.88 short! Said his previous best was a 12.5 at just under 114. Also said he couldn't wait to do some bolt-ons, in a quest for an 11 second time slip.

Not saying it's at all representative - just possible.

Bruce
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      12-21-2011, 12:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onurleft View Post
Fixed it for you. My bad.

The record for a stock E46 M3, is 12.7@107.7.
U.S spec early model car.
The record for an E92 M3 is 12.4@114.9
Both could have lower E.T's with a optimal tire set up. I'm not sure if these two still stand but they both did for more than a few years.

If there's a strong running E92 M3 that's dead stock running 12.60's @ the tracks in the S.E then i'll be right behind it running 13 dead in an strong running E46 M3. No questions.
If the conditions yield 13.0-13.2@105-108 for the E9x, a very common average time vs. a 12.6-12.7@110+ (assuming avg.2.0 short times) at the tracks around here, then again, the same average joe should be in the 13.3-13.5 area@102-105 area in the E46.


If you think 6-8.5 car lengths separates the two on average (same conditions/drivers), you should feed your delusions by some seat time.
Arguing one car runs .2ths faster then it's record and another car is close to a second away from its record is just a biased argument.
However, I feel like you just want to correct my numbers you can quickly regurgitate, which was not my point from the start (why I was careless with the math) and is my mistake
You are using a time for the E46 M3 that no one has ever been able to duplicate. Lee Rutter (Matthews) is an incredibly skilled driver, I would love to give him a crack at the E92 M3. Also, I have talked to Lee quite a few times as we were both former Mustang drivers and Lee went through a clutch in his E46 in under 40k miles as the amount of clutch slip that is necessary to attain those ETs. The reason why his ET was so good was he was able to pull a 1.74 60 ft. time on stock Contis, hence all the clutch slip and destruction.

Also, even given Lees time of 12.7 107mph vs. the E92 M3s 114.8mph is a huge difference. I actually look at the mph more than ET sometimes as its the MPH that shows what the car is doing.

I have owned both, my best time with my bone stock E46 M3 was a 13.16 106.7 mph, with Supersprint headers, 100 cpi cats and other bolt ons the car to include 4.10 gearing put down 302rwhp and ran a 12.89@110.6mph. Yet it still felt my stock at the time E92 M3 would tear it a new arse hole. The issue for the E92 M3 is traction. If you powershift 2nd gear I get tons of wheel spin even with my 285s out back and you have to baby the car out of the hole as well. Keep in mind Drew ran a 11.88@118+mph in his bolt on E92 M3 with D/Rs..once again issue for these cars is the lack of traction.

That being all said..loved my E46 M3.



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