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      01-25-2012, 06:10 PM   #23
dbyrd
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TTP without tune?

Will the engine run optimally without a tune even though the O2 sensors will be malfunctioning?
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      01-25-2012, 06:31 PM   #24
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Will the engine run optimally without a tune even though the O2 sensors will be malfunctioning?
Yes, you'll just have a CEL
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      01-28-2012, 02:26 PM   #25
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The rear 02s used for emissions purposes are located immediately after the primary converters and a few feet before the secondary converters. Therefore, removing the primary converters will trigger a CEL and the retention of the secondary converters does nothing to help.

At present, few if any tuners offer a tune that "simulates" the rear 02s so the car will pass OBD2 plug in readiness monitor testing. Most of the tuners are just turning off the rear 02s, which means you fail two readiness monitors and that is more than allowable in most states for a 2008 or newer vehicle. One device simply resets the codes for the converters every few minutes so the CEL never comes on, but the readiness monitors still fail for the rear 02s.

It seems possible to extend the rear 02 harness and add new rear 02 bungs after the secondary cats. However, I have not seen anyone do this yet and figure there must be a reason although I have asked the question and reveived no real answer other than a vague "everything has already been tried."

It is also possible to insert high flow cats into the space occupied by the stock primary cats. One problem is that the stock primary cats are very low profile at 2.5 to 3.0 inches thick (although oval and wide and long) and high flow cats are 4 inches diameter (and round and short). This means there is a risk of scraping.

Most of the aftermarket x-pipes do not address the problem you want addressed. If you look at pictures of exhausts in the sticky thread, you will see that only a few of the exhausts include high flow cats where the stock primary cats are located.

Probably eventually the tuners will learn more about the ECU and be able to tune it better. Factory ECU are very complex. There are teams of software engineers with massive budgets programming them and there are many maps. A proper simulation will come in time. When I looked into this recently, I think Evolve suggested it might have something and M3DCTBT said he has a tune that preserves OBD2 readiness with no cats or high flow cats.

I have a resonatorless, catless x-pipe on the workbench right now. It was way too loud and smelled way to gassy for my tastes. I ran it only for a few days. I just cut it up and inserted four resonators and tack welded them. I will drop it off at the tig welders today. My guess is that I will be going back for round two and adding a set of high flow cats where the primary cats would be located and hoping they don't scrape too much. I'll use metallic core 200 CPI. It is not cheap. I paid $475 for the x-pipe, $180 for the resonators, and will pay about $100 for the welding. If I add the high flow cats, that will be another $250. That would be about $1000 and I have some time in this project as well. Makes a new or used x-pipe worth considering although something like the Active Autowerkes x-pipe with high flow cats located in the proper location costs $2,300.

http://store.activeautowerke.com/act...w-cats-p2.aspx

A good welder could remove your x-pipe and add a V-band connection for turner test pipes and the stock high flow cats. It would not quite look factory and the V-band clamp reduces ground clearance slightly, but it would make swapping easy. Figure on $150-$200 for the 4 V-band clamps and $200 for the eight tig welds and probably $150 for two hours of labor for the removal, cutting and reinstalling, plus the $400 for the test pipes. You can use inexpensive band clamps but some people say the do not seal well. They are about 3 inches wide and one version is designed for butting tubing inside. I have had mixed success with them in the past. I am not sure whether the factory pipe is double walled stainless in that location or not -- that could complicate the sealing.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

My research suggests that the majority of the gain comes without a tune, but that the tune helps. Roughly, if you make 20 rwhp without a tune, you might make 30 rwhp with a tune. Although the stock ECU is very adaptable and capable -- it runs off wide band 02 sensors and is full time closed loop, a tune will help.

My concern is running without a tune and the rich conditions that will result. I'm a bit paranoid, I wonder how much the stock ECU accounts for just a primary CAT delete. I really don't want to tune, but at the same time I have heard that running rich can be quite detrimental.
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      01-28-2012, 08:45 PM   #26
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You don't NEED a tune. The engine won't run rich. The WB02 are excellent and tell the ECU the precise AFR and the ECU has authority to adjust to the target AFR with or without cats. But a tune will help you make even more power.
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      01-30-2012, 07:03 AM   #27
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Has anyone done a before and after dyno to verify Turner's claim of 40hp?

Thx,
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      01-30-2012, 07:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbyrd View Post
Will the engine run optimally without a tune even though the O2 sensors will be malfunctioning?
I was thinking of doing the TTP mod as well...but I was told without the tune...that gas mileage would be horrible, as if it already wasn't

I have the OEM exhaust mod done...the car sounds AWESOME, but 30+hp and a louder exhaust is VERY tempting, lol. I have to really think this through.
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      01-30-2012, 10:50 AM   #29
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Quote:
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Has anyone done a before and after dyno to verify Turner's claim of 40hp?

Thx,
BC
Barry.. you sold the GTR? Back in a M3?
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      01-30-2012, 02:24 PM   #30
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You cannot clamp the stock cats back on, they will have to be welded. I recommend buying a 2nd stock x-pipe off of someone and modify it if you intend on doing this and want to return to stock.
Why can you not just bolt the stock cats back into place? Was thinking of getting these and just bolting the stock cats back into place when it was time for inspection. Is that not possible?
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      01-30-2012, 03:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Why can you not just bolt the stock cats back into place? Was thinking of getting these and just bolting the stock cats back into place when it was time for inspection. Is that not possible?
There is insufficient room on the cat to use a traditional band clamp. You could, however, weld the cat back onto the x-pipe for your inspection and then cut it again and re-install the test pipe.
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      01-30-2012, 05:23 PM   #32
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Quote:
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There is insufficient room on the cat to use a traditional band clamp. You could, however, weld the cat back onto the x-pipe for your inspection and then cut it again and re-install the test pipe.
Does everyone with TTP weld it back on for emissions testing? Or is there some other way of temporarily putting the stock cat back on (maybe another type of clamp)?
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      02-01-2012, 07:13 PM   #33
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Does everyone with TTP weld it back on for emissions testing? Or is there some other way of temporarily putting the stock cat back on (maybe another type of clamp)?
Bump to see if there is some other way of temporarily re-attaching the stock cat (e.g. for emissions testing).
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      02-03-2012, 08:37 AM   #34
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Quote:
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Bump to see if there is some other way of temporarily re-attaching the stock cat (e.g. for emissions testing).
it would liklely be easier to "borrow" or just purchase a new x pipe and swap it out for a day. Its a pretty easy install job.
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      02-03-2012, 10:10 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Bump to see if there is some other way of temporarily re-attaching the stock cat (e.g. for emissions testing).
Buy a used stock x-pipe and use that like someone else did. They are not expensive at all and easily swappable when you need to take it for the test.
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      02-03-2012, 11:06 AM   #36
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Then you are spending $400 for a used X-Pipe, $400 for Turner test pipes, $100 for cutting and welding, and you still have to swap it back and forth for inspection if your state has OBD2 plug in.
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      02-03-2012, 11:22 AM   #37
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Used x pipe will Be less than 400

Also, even at those prices it still is a good deal. It fits better than aftermarket x pipes and makes as much if not more power.
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      02-03-2012, 01:51 PM   #38
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Quote:
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Used x pipe will Be less than 400

Also, even at those prices it still is a good deal. It fits better than aftermarket x pipes and makes as much if not more power.
Paid $150 for mine..
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      02-03-2012, 10:28 PM   #39
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What really pisses me off that TTP has been on backorder for a while and still, I am guessing, at least 4-6 weeks out... Those are just pipes, why crazy lead time??
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      02-04-2012, 07:22 AM   #40
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What really pisses me off that TTP has been on backorder for a while and still, I am guessing, at least 4-6 weeks out... Those are just pipes, why crazy lead time??
Maybe they have a long boat ride from Asia? You could have a set made by an exhaust specialty shop or make your own if you can weld.
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      02-04-2012, 03:55 PM   #41
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Maybe they have a long boat ride from Asia? You could have a set made by an exhaust specialty shop or make your own if you can weld.
Well, boat ride from Asia would be weird considering that Turner advertises them as Made in USA on their website

I probably need to look into exhaust shop option.. I sure can't weld
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      02-04-2012, 05:39 PM   #42
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It is great some exhausts are still made in the USA. Maybe that is why 2 eighteen inch sections of pipe cost $400. If the angle is 45, that would be beautiful. You could just buy two stainless 2.5 inch 45s from Mandrel Bending Solutions, Ebay, or elsewhere and a couple of flanges plus a 5 pack of stainless 02 bungs from Vibrant and a couple of flanges and just a little cutting and welding and drilling would be needed. I did not check the angle. You can also find 60s, but anything exotic would require some custom work.
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      02-04-2012, 06:54 PM   #43
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Yeah, I don't understand the backorder issue, and yeah, they are making a ton on us. I bet those things are less than $100, they are just 1 bend and 2 02 sensor flanges each. but, they're 1/2 the price of anything else... oh well. I kept mine when I sold the first 2 cars, and they're about to go on the new one.
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      02-04-2012, 07:39 PM   #44
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Quote:
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What really pisses me off that TTP has been on backorder for a while and still, I am guessing, at least 4-6 weeks out... Those are just pipes, why crazy lead time??
Holy ish they are still on back order! I tried to purchase one back in early December and was told it would be available in January; it's now Febuary, I also don't understand why so long a wait for a piece of pipe. I'm glad I canceled my order and purchased a custom piece for half the price. Just find a reputable exhaust shop that can build you a set of test pipe and have it welded to a stock Xpipe. I purchased a second Xpipe for around $200 and kept my stock exhaust in one piece for emission and resale purpose. I still paid less than $450 for Xpipe and test pipe do the job youself to save some $. If your not handy I'm sure a shop won't cost you much to install.
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