BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-31-2015, 09:23 PM   #1
M3 Number 86
First Lieutenant
48
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: black m3
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: pasadena

iTrader: (0)

track with lip

So looking to get a lip something like mode carbon v1 or gts lip.

Friends have apr aero kits but also a lip to cover holes it would cause by just installing the apr front.

Are there any drawbacks by just going with lip first?

Do these types of lips provide any additional downforce even if minimal?

Thanks in advance.

Will I need a matching rear wing as well even with just a lip?
Appreciate 0
      05-31-2015, 11:24 PM   #2
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
radiantm3's Avatar
United_States
233
Rep
4,093
Posts

Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2014 BMW i3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal TW View Post
So looking to get a lip something like mode carbon v1 or gts lip.

Friends have apr aero kits but also a lip to cover holes it would cause by just installing the apr front.

Are there any drawbacks by just going with lip first?

Do these types of lips provide any additional downforce even if minimal?

Thanks in advance.

Will I need a matching rear wing as well even with just a lip?
Lips don't do anything worth noting as far as downforce goes. It's pretty much just for show.
__________________

OEM M3 GTS Splitter/Wing/Harness Bar/Rear Seat Delete, Ohlin R&T, Brembo BBK, Akrapovic GT4, Alekshop Oil Cooler, ESS Tune/Pulley, Recaro SPG, 18" BBS FI, CAE Shifter, Vorschlag Camber Plates, Bimmerworld Toe-Links/End-Links/Motor Mounts, RD Sport Front Sway, Turner Solid Subframe/Diff Bushings, Awron Gauge.
Appreciate 1
      06-01-2015, 12:53 AM   #3
M3 Number 86
First Lieutenant
48
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: black m3
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: pasadena

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiantm3
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal TW View Post
So looking to get a lip something like mode carbon v1 or gts lip.

Friends have apr aero kits but also a lip to cover holes it would cause by just installing the apr front.

Are there any drawbacks by just going with lip first?

Do these types of lips provide any additional downforce even if minimal?

Thanks in advance.

Will I need a matching rear wing as well even with just a lip?
Lips don't do anything worth noting as far as downforce goes. It's pretty much just for show.
Good. Was wondering if it messed up performance haha.
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 05:10 AM   #4
MFKN3
Colonel
MFKN3's Avatar
Australia
45
Rep
2,069
Posts

Drives: 4.5L supercharged stroker E92
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Australia

iTrader: (2)

Try telling the time attack guys that. Not sure I agree.

Front aero and rear wing are proven and usually complement each other
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 12:43 PM   #5
knolow
Captain
knolow's Avatar
United_States
7
Rep
659
Posts

Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Jersey

iTrader: (7)

Not trying to get into a battle here, but lips don't matter? Of course they do. Obviously smaller "cosmetic" lips don't matter or minutely affect aero but yes lips and wings (spoilers) matter. Front lips counter under steer as they force the front end of the car down and rear wings counter over steer as they force the rear of the car down. Both pieces are required for the right balance on the track.
__________________
2009 E93 M3 Sold
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 12:45 PM   #6
Longboarder
Brigadier General
110
Rep
4,135
Posts

Drives: 2013 e92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Monarch Beach

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 997.2 Turbo S  [4.75]
2013 e92 M3  [4.55]
2013 BMW X5  [0.00]
A structurally rigid front lip bolted to the chassis and developed in connection with a rear wing with angles optimized for the particular car AND each track would work very nicely.
__________________
Daily: 2013 e92 M3 DCT / ESS VT2 650 S/C / Akrapovic Evolution / StopTech BBK
Track/Airstrip: 2011 997.2 Turbo S PDK / GIAC FBO @ 30psi / BBi suspension build
Beaterz: 2013 X5 3.5 Sport, 2015 Wrangler Unlimited
YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1...eoFBszPIK0gf9w
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 12:46 PM   #7
kevin///mlee
Lieutenant
kevin///mlee's Avatar
15
Rep
483
Posts

Drives: E90 M3, E30 M3
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Mountain View, CA

iTrader: (7)

Lips like the Mode Carbon V1 just tape and screw in to the bumper. I'd expect negligible downforce from that even at track speeds. I agree that these types of lips are just for show.

OEM lips like the GTS lip with the correct brackets in place actually attach to the chassis would make a much bigger impact IMO as far as downforce goes and would likely need a wing to match.
__________________
Akrapovic | AngeliBright | APEX | Hankook | IND | JRZ RS1 | Macht Schnell | Mode Carbon | Vorsteiner
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 02:34 PM   #8
M3 Number 86
First Lieutenant
48
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: black m3
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: pasadena

iTrader: (0)

ok so lip like a stick on v1 ( and to create a flat bottom surface) is all good for now.

when buying font splitter buy matching rear wing at the same time.

thanks!
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 04:01 PM   #9
surlynkid
Major
surlynkid's Avatar
18
Rep
1,262
Posts

Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
My car does not even weigh the 51/49 like oem literature says. I am 55 front and 45 rear. I don't need any front aero. I need the rear planted. A friend felt the same way. He went with large apr wing and no splitter. Car was much more balanced with rear more planted.
__________________
Stoptech 380mm/355mm | PFC08 / Pagid RS-29 | Akrapovic EVO - CF tips | Benvo Tune | MS UDP | AA air filter | MCS 2-way with 700/1000lb springs | Solid bushings and adjustable links | RD front swaybar | Apex EC-7 18x10 square 275/35-18 NT01 | Turner Race Studs | GT4 Brake Cooling | GT4 Power Steering Cooling | Alekshop Oil Cooler | Performance Steering Wheel | | CF Spoiler | Varis System 1 Full CF Diffuser | Extended Paddle Shifters | Schroth Quick Fit Pro | Turner Steering Rack Stops | Vorshlag Camber Plates
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 05:10 PM   #10
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
radiantm3's Avatar
United_States
233
Rep
4,093
Posts

Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2014 BMW i3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MFKN3 View Post
Try telling the time attack guys that. Not sure I agree.

Front aero and rear wing are proven and usually complement each other
We are talking about the cheaply made lips that 99% of the people on m3post buy for looks, not splitters tested for race applications.
__________________

OEM M3 GTS Splitter/Wing/Harness Bar/Rear Seat Delete, Ohlin R&T, Brembo BBK, Akrapovic GT4, Alekshop Oil Cooler, ESS Tune/Pulley, Recaro SPG, 18" BBS FI, CAE Shifter, Vorschlag Camber Plates, Bimmerworld Toe-Links/End-Links/Motor Mounts, RD Sport Front Sway, Turner Solid Subframe/Diff Bushings, Awron Gauge.
Appreciate 1
      06-01-2015, 05:13 PM   #11
xchosun1x
FNG
xchosun1x's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
2,163
Posts

Drives: JZB 2008 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (10)

realistically front aero needs to be giving down force to the chassis..not just the front bumper.

Although a front lip can provide down force, a lip/splitter combo with chassis mounted bracing would be ideal.
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 05:14 PM   #12
radiantm3
Apex Everything!
radiantm3's Avatar
United_States
233
Rep
4,093
Posts

Drives: >1000 HP in my garage
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Danville, CA

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2013 BMW X5M  [4.33]
2011 E92 M3  [4.80]
2014 BMW i3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin///mlee View Post
Lips like the Mode Carbon V1 just tape and screw in to the bumper. I'd expect negligible downforce from that even at track speeds. I agree that these types of lips are just for show.

OEM lips like the GTS lip with the correct brackets in place actually attach to the chassis would make a much bigger impact IMO as far as downforce goes and would likely need a wing to match.
The GTS splitter and wing make less of an impact than people think. You need to be going really fast through a corner for them to make a marginal difference that probably makes a .001 second difference in a lap time if that. I'd say those are really for show as well. Anyone who really wants downforce is going to get a splitter and wing that looks ridiculous on a street car.
__________________

OEM M3 GTS Splitter/Wing/Harness Bar/Rear Seat Delete, Ohlin R&T, Brembo BBK, Akrapovic GT4, Alekshop Oil Cooler, ESS Tune/Pulley, Recaro SPG, 18" BBS FI, CAE Shifter, Vorschlag Camber Plates, Bimmerworld Toe-Links/End-Links/Motor Mounts, RD Sport Front Sway, Turner Solid Subframe/Diff Bushings, Awron Gauge.
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 07:32 PM   #13
Melchior
Enlisted Member
10
Rep
33
Posts

Drives: 2011 AW M3 DCT
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: United States

iTrader: (0)

Lips, even typical "show" lips, sit lower to the ground which reduces the amount of air flowing underneath the car. This results in lower pressure under the car, and reduced drag because the air under the car doesn't have to flow around all the suspension/exhaust/diff components. Depending on how low the lip is (height from the ground), this can produce significant downforce. I went from wing/no lip ---> wing/oem lip on my RX7 race car and had to add wing to balance the car back out. I then went from wing/oem lip with custom splitter and hand to add even more wing to balance the car out. The splitter was worth more front grip, but the OEM lip did make a decent difference.

Lip and splitter mounting isn't as critical as most people think on low downforce setups. The overall donwforce isn't achieved through the lip or short splitter surface, but actually primarily from the underside of the car. That's a lot of sq-ft to distribute the pressure, and only a very small amount on the actual lip itself. I ran a Mode Carbon V2 setup on my M3 and had to dial in a fair amount of wing to get the car balanced. The lip/splitter combo was only bumper mounted. I've even run a 1/4" plywood splitter which was bumper mounted and it still produced a fair amount of front grip, and I don't think either of these arrangements would have gained much from chassis mounting.

If the splitter goes back (centerl ine of front axle) further, extends further forward, and is designed to produce higher downforce, then it should be mounted to the chassis. The splitter should also be rigid to prevent deflection at speed. Splitters extending further back are more critical because the pressure will be distributed across the spilltter, as opposed to the underside of the car.
Appreciate 0
      06-01-2015, 09:12 PM   #14
M3 Number 86
First Lieutenant
48
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: black m3
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: pasadena

iTrader: (0)

I plan on getting an APR splitter but friends have said get a lip to make the bottom flat first and then add on the splitter.

Was wondering in the interim, if it would have any effect, or if I had to gather the parts then put them all on at once.
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2015, 02:42 AM   #15
Triple M
Doc Rebel!
Triple M's Avatar
United_States
9
Rep
313
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange M3, X5M, Blk 135
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vegas Baby!

iTrader: (0)

It was strange how many thought the GTS lip/Wing did nothing for our car until the wind tunnel data as well as pictures were posted on here years back. Truth of the matter is, other than HPDE and schools, many of us rarely get the opportunity to invest the amount of test n tune time that the real attack guys or full blown racers due, enough to be able to appreciate the difference every component of car makes in lap times. I smiled when I saw this article in motor trend a few months back.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._track_retest/

Smallest amount of aero is considered significant enough to not be allowed in certain racing class. Reading up on tires, aero, and suspension this past year as been an eye opener when it comes to grip which is what it's all about at the end of the day. Enter mechanical vs aerodynamic drip, and it gets interesting. I would swap all the aero in the world for the suspension setup (blade sway bar...etc) that the GS E92 M3 were running.
I truly believe once the car is near what most would consider its limit e.g 1:57 at BW CW#13, 1:34 big willow (ballpark), I think aero really starts to make a difference for those extra 1, 2, or 3 seconds.

The lip should definitely not be the on the top 3 list of mods to start with. I guess it depends on OP skill level and what he's trying to achieve with the lip, look or that extra few second to better what can already be considered a very fast lap time.
Appreciate 1
      06-04-2015, 10:34 AM   #16
M3 Number 86
First Lieutenant
48
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: black m3
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: pasadena

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple M
It was strange how many thought the GTS lip/Wing did nothing for our car until the wind tunnel data as well as pictures were posted on here years back. Truth of the matter is, other than HPDE and schools, many of us rarely get the opportunity to invest the amount of test n tune time that the real attack guys or full blown racers due, enough to be able to appreciate the difference every component of car makes in lap times. I smiled when I saw this article in motor trend a few months back.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._track_retest/

Smallest amount of aero is considered significant enough to not be allowed in certain racing class. Reading up on tires, aero, and suspension this past year as been an eye opener when it comes to grip which is what it's all about at the end of the day. Enter mechanical vs aerodynamic drip, and it gets interesting. I would swap all the aero in the world for the suspension setup (blade sway bar...etc) that the GS E92 M3 were running.
I truly believe once the car is near what most would consider its limit e.g 1:57 at BW CW#13, 1:34 big willow (ballpark), I think aero really starts to make a difference for those extra 1, 2, or 3 seconds.

The lip should definitely not be the on the top 3 list of mods to start with. I guess it depends on OP skill level and what he's trying to achieve with the lip, look or that extra few second to better what can already be considered a very fast lap time.
Good post and thanks.

Is yours a real gts lip? Good time at acs and podium finish!

I got 2nd in B3 with 1:54 for the day and current setup is kw cs and brake pads with RS3.

Getting a little bored with the way my car looks and wanted to put a lip on it for looks as long as it didn't affect performance negatively at the track as well as finding one where it will work with a splitter properly in the future if I decided to go that route.

Also this moonroof makes the car pretty top heavy because in all my track photos my car is leaning over so much compared to others and thinking about just removing it and getting a cf cover made. Why full cf roof conversion so $$$$?

Next thing on my list is perhaps stiffer springs all around and going to try some nt01.
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2015, 02:19 PM   #17
elim11
Captain
27
Rep
713
Posts

Drives: e90m3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: irvine/sf

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal TW View Post
Good post and thanks.

Is yours a real gts lip? Good time at acs and podium finish!

I got 2nd in B3 with 1:54 for the day and current setup is kw cs and brake pads with RS3.

Getting a little bored with the way my car looks and wanted to put a lip on it for looks as long as it didn't affect performance negatively at the track as well as finding one where it will work with a splitter properly in the future if I decided to go that route.

Also this moonroof makes the car pretty top heavy because in all my track photos my car is leaning over so much compared to others and thinking about just removing it and getting a cf cover made. Why full cf roof conversion so $$$$?

Next thing on my list is perhaps stiffer springs all around and going to try some nt01.
I saw a guy at the track day with an e90 m3 with full splitter and wing combo. Nice guy. I talked to him to see how he liked that setup, and improvements vs stock but it was his first time out there. So no benchmark. Looked aggressive tho and def looks functional.

OT, OP it looks like our cars are twinzies lol. both e90 m3 blk 6sp. apex with rs3, and kw coils. our times are pretty spot on as well. (~1:55). Autoclub was fun (2nd time out) Hope to see you next time and meet you!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-04-2015, 02:37 PM   #18
M3 Number 86
First Lieutenant
48
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: black m3
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: pasadena

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elim11
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal TW View Post
Good post and thanks.

Is yours a real gts lip? Good time at acs and podium finish!

I got 2nd in B3 with 1:54 for the day and current setup is kw cs and brake pads with RS3.

Getting a little bored with the way my car looks and wanted to put a lip on it for looks as long as it didn't affect performance negatively at the track as well as finding one where it will work with a splitter properly in the future if I decided to go that route.

Also this moonroof makes the car pretty top heavy because in all my track photos my car is leaning over so much compared to others and thinking about just removing it and getting a cf cover made. Why full cf roof conversion so $$$$?

Next thing on my list is perhaps stiffer springs all around and going to try some nt01.
I saw a guy at the track day with an e90 m3 with full splitter and wing combo. Nice guy. I talked to him to see how he liked that setup, and improvements vs stock but it was his first time out there. So no benchmark. Looked aggressive tho and def looks functional.

OT, OP it looks like our cars are twinzies lol. both e90 m3 blk 6sp. apex with rs3, and kw coils. our times are pretty spot on as well. (~1:55). Autoclub was fun (2nd time out) Hope to see you next time and meet you!


We need more sedan power! The guy with aero was part of our group. I was tucked away in the garage but since it looks pretty stock nobody notices. Sleeper status lols.

Did you get to eat? There was another sedan out there that day running 202 but I didn't get a chance to see any other black sedans out there.

Did you do Bimmer Challenge? Next couple ones are up north so the next one I'll be at is buttonwillow on 7/26.

See you there!
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2015, 12:05 PM   #19
elim11
Captain
27
Rep
713
Posts

Drives: e90m3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: irvine/sf

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal TW View Post


We need more sedan power! The guy with aero was part of our group. I was tucked away in the garage but since it looks pretty stock nobody notices. Sleeper status lols.

Did you get to eat? There was another sedan out there that day running 202 but I didn't get a chance to see any other black sedans out there.

Did you do Bimmer Challenge? Next couple ones are up north so the next one I'll be at is buttonwillow on 7/26.

See you there!
I ate at the carls Jr down the street (needed to get gas also). No way I was waiting in the line for the food trucks. I didn't do the bimmer challenge. Had no idea what that was. I thought it was for race cars only or something. It was my 1st time w/ SV.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      06-05-2015, 02:09 PM   #20
M3 Number 86
First Lieutenant
48
Rep
381
Posts

Drives: black m3
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: pasadena

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elim11
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal TW View Post


We need more sedan power! The guy with aero was part of our group. I was tucked away in the garage but since it looks pretty stock nobody notices. Sleeper status lols.

Did you get to eat? There was another sedan out there that day running 202 but I didn't get a chance to see any other black sedans out there.

Did you do Bimmer Challenge? Next couple ones are up north so the next one I'll be at is buttonwillow on 7/26.

See you there!
I ate at the carls Jr down the street (needed to get gas also). No way I was waiting in the line for the food trucks. I didn't do the bimmer challenge. Had no idea what that was. I thought it was for race cars only or something. It was my 1st time w/ SV.
We had a huge bbq grill in the parking lot Free food!

The e90 with aero was parked next to it.
Appreciate 0
      06-06-2015, 11:39 PM   #21
RINTAXI
Private First Class
United_States
6
Rep
171
Posts

Drives: 11 E92 M3
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Great Lakes

iTrader: (7)

I have gt4 lip and gts wing combo. I did not feel any different between this set up and stock, tbh. I felt a bit more faster because I know they were there, however.
__________________

6MT FTW
KW Clubsport / Apex ARC-8 / NT-01 / IPE / Sabelt GT-140 / GTS wing / GT4 lip / Challenge harness bar / IND cosmetic package / M performance steering wheel / Hawk DTC-70
Appreciate 0
      06-08-2015, 02:46 AM   #22
Triple M
Doc Rebel!
Triple M's Avatar
United_States
9
Rep
313
Posts

Drives: Fire Orange M3, X5M, Blk 135
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Vegas Baby!

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by socal TW View Post
Good post and thanks.

Is yours a real gts lip? Good time at acs and podium finish!

I got 2nd in B3 with 1:54 for the day and current setup is kw cs and brake pads with RS3.

Getting a little bored with the way my car looks and wanted to put a lip on it for looks as long as it didn't affect performance negatively at the track as well as finding one where it will work with a splitter properly in the future if I decided to go that route.

Also this moonroof makes the car pretty top heavy because in all my track photos my car is leaning over so much compared to others and thinking about just removing it and getting a cf cover made. Why full cf roof conversion so $$$$?

Next thing on my list is perhaps stiffer springs all around and going to try some nt01.
Mine is a temporary APR splitter. I had an Arkym piece for about 3 years, and Phil Hill ate my last BW piece. Congrats on your 2nd place B-3 finish.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:17 AM.




m3post
m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST