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      01-03-2012, 07:42 AM   #45
James T. Kirk
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Z4MCoupe, as much of a dedicated sports car as any other brand has, more so than probably half of them.

That is highly debatable.
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      01-03-2012, 08:46 AM   #46
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hard to say. sure they are the ultimate driving machines, but some people dont want to do all those mods aftermarket. a factory super car would help bmw keep up with the market. check out the 2012 xkrs.....
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      01-03-2012, 10:19 AM   #47
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I agree with the M Division in that point. Why do one if they don't need to? When people think of BMW, they think about sporty cars. Linked with motorsports. That's it. Audi had to build the R8 because they try to get a sporty image for over 15 years by now. Mercedes has an image as grandpa's car over here. Those brands want to change their images. And when I hear from some Mercedes-AMG engineer that they copied a C6 in some way... Oh c'mooon.

Honestly, when I can have an M3 and bash R8 and SLS for half the money and with much more daily driver ability... Those cars will never be as attractive ase their italian enemies.
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      01-03-2012, 11:14 AM   #48
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Why do many think BMW are losing it?

When they have significant new products such as the new BMW 1er , appearance is subjective but I do not think Tom Cruise reads this board and decided to give the 1er an impromptu facelift in Mission Impossible : Ghost Protocol.

The 1er is a fantastic new car and brings luxury class features to the Premium compact segment.

And then the new 3er which by all accounts has set the current Audi A4 and Mercedes-Benz C-Klasse back a few years thanks to it's continuing superiority in design and engineering. I will be slipping into a Sportline 320d when I return to work on Monday and I am looking forward to it as colleagues praise about the new 3er.

Both the 1er and 3er will be more profitable than the outgoing E87 and E90 series.

Two signifcant new products for 2012. And although the 1er has been available since September it has delivered especially high sales , something that will continue in 2012 with the arrival of more Performance and additional 3dr model.

Then the BMWi cars are the most important BMWs possibly of the company's lifetime. Two new concepts all new from the ground up. Distinctive design and highly individual. This is "Born Electric" not "Secondary Thought" this not an additional model or sports car electrified. This is what you have to do to cement the idea of sustainable mobility - You have to stand out and that is the core philosophy of BMWi. The cars are one thing but the range of applications that will be integrated with the cars are the way ahead and once again BMW leads.

So then you have BMW on top again as the worlds most efficient automobile manufacturer and globally the top luxury marque in terms of sales. And all that without a super high end sports car.
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      01-03-2012, 03:02 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Why do many think BMW are losing it?
When they have significant new products such as the new BMW 1er , appearance is subjective but I do not think Tom Cruise reads this board and decided to give the 1er an impromptu facelift in Mission Impossible : Ghost Protocol.

The 1er is a fantastic new car and brings luxury class features to the Premium compact segment.

And then the new 3er which by all accounts has set the current Audi A4 and Mercedes-Benz C-Klasse back a few years thanks to it's continuing superiority in design and engineering. I will be slipping into a Sportline 320d when I return to work on Monday and I am looking forward to it as colleagues praise about the new 3er.

Both the 1er and 3er will be more profitable than the outgoing E87 and E90 series.

Two signifcant new products for 2012. And although the 1er has been available since September it has delivered especially high sales , something that will continue in 2012 with the arrival of more Performance and additional 3dr model.

Then the BMWi cars are the most important BMWs possibly of the company's lifetime. Two new concepts all new from the ground up. Distinctive design and highly individual. This is "Born Electric" not "Secondary Thought" this not an additional model or sports car electrified. This is what you have to do to cement the idea of sustainable mobility - You have to stand out and that is the core philosophy of BMWi. The cars are one thing but the range of applications that will be integrated with the cars are the way ahead and once again BMW leads.

So then you have BMW on top again as the worlds most efficient automobile manufacturer and globally the top luxury marque in terms of sales. And all that without a super high end sports car.

We think this way because we have eyes and ears most of all. As a 20+year owner of BMWs, from the e24 to e30, to the e63 M6, I can say that BMW has definitely turned down a "different" path in recent years. Whether that is the right path or the wrong path is yet to be determined, but from an enthusiasts point of view, Id lean towards them taking the "wrong" path.

Somehow they've decided to let politics get in the way of delivering their products, ie performance driver oriented vehicles. When a company that was founded on NA performace engines decided to completely abandon the 30+years of M history to make turbo engines and put emblems on the backs of trucks and call them "M"s, well I see a big big change in strategy, and from my point of view, its not something I agree with at all. And maybe it will be fine for BMW, perhaps their wish to be the next GM will come true, as they now are trying to compete in every single possible market segment and make up a few themselves, rather than perhaps concentrating on their core offerings.

You talk alot about the 1er and 3er, but the facts are that BMW takes the $$$$ and said lets move the 3er up the scale and introduce the 1er which has the dimensions of the classic 3er. Strange decision for sure, whether its financially successful only you can know, but of course as a result you note that the 5er is now the choice for the executive saloon segment, which leaves the 7er where???? How much R&D has been wasted on that dinosaur now that the 5er is 95% the 7er? Who made those choices? Today no one knows what a 1er or 3er or 5er or 7er is anymore as they are not recognizable by size (or differentiated by design). In this new world, why bother with the 7er when they're selling a few each month. And now the 6er Gran Coupe??? While I like the design aspects, the fact that its bigger than the 5er and 6er makes yet another 4door vehicle in the same category as the 7er and 5er with this new GC? And BMW doesnt see canibalization as a serious issue? People that by MBs will rarely by BMWs, just usually different clientele, so is it the case that BMW is competing with themselves for sales of quite large 4 door cars?
If BMW still cared about its core enthusiasts, they would never have give up NA engine building and replaced every single model with a turbo based engine, because as just about anyone that knows cars and are enthusiasts understands, there are people who love turbo and people who hate turbo, and you can not go out and call yourself the ultimate driving machine when someone in a suit somewhere made a political decision to stop the production of NA cars in place of minimal efficiency gains, especially for car models such as the M6 or M5 which represent less that 0.001% of annual sales, and have just about no impact on CAFE standards.
Thats why you have to atleast give Porsche their dues, they know their customers are savvy enough to know what they want and would never decide unilaterally as to what type of engine a customer must buy in order to drive their vehicles. They know that many people love turbos, but just as many love NA power, so what do they do? They give their customers what they want, BOTH, they dont try to believe that they are omnipotent and judge and jury for owning a BMW. If you want a turbo based Porsche, you can get that car today, and if you want an NA powered car, you can go and order that too. And whether its the volume line engines or the high performace GT cars, they offer their customers what they WANT, they dont make decision for their customers and force their loyal customers to make a decision to switch engine tech for example, just to say with the brand. This is the hypocracy of the BMW of 2012 and why they are heading down a path that seems to be far, far different than the company that once used the marketing term "One schnell of a car"

Give me my choice of what I want to drive and dont make up my mind for me. The ground work laid today will show the path taken to their future, and it sure seems that its not a path based on driver dynamics and performance oriented cars.
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      01-03-2012, 03:54 PM   #50
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^ Well said m630

BMW used to occupy a sort of middle ground between a boring luxury brand like Lexus and an exciting enthusiast brand like Porsche. BMW used to be much closer to Porsche in their enthusiast/driver's credentials compared to their direct competitors Mercedes and Audi. This is the reason BMW has had such a following up to now.

Today however I would say the opposite. Mercedes has the Black Series Cars and the SLS, Audi has multiple RS cars and the R8. BMW has a fake M car (1M) and a few sporty-ish luxury cruisers with big engines (M3, M5, M6). I don't know about you guys but if I were buying something new or from the last 5 years based on enthusiasts/driver's credentials... BMW would come in a distant third to Audi and Mercedes. There's a reason the newest BMW I own is a 2005 MY M3, and the newest I've ever owned is a 2007 MY Z4M Coupe.

Nowadays BMW just looks like it wants to be Lexus of Germany. And I guess there's nothing wrong with that if you only want to maximize profits. But when all us driving enthusiasts abandon ship, don't be surprised.
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      01-03-2012, 07:26 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
That is highly debatable.
.
Then you've never driven a Z4Mcoupe or have a really weird definition of a sports car.

The car handles extremely well
It's a 2 seater coupe
Utility is compromised for performance
Comfort is compromised for performance
The engine is very high performance
For a factory car it has very fitting seats
It looks flashy
It can be raced on a race track for hours and be fine


the list could go on, but these are things most people would use to define a sports car (not necessarily all by one person but from different peoples perspectives). It's as much of a sports car as a lotus Elise is. Just because it's not as fast as a ferrari 430 doesn't mean it's not a sports car. The rest of BMWs modern performance cars are GT cars.
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      01-03-2012, 08:07 PM   #52
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^ Well said m630

BMW used to occupy a sort of middle ground between a boring luxury brand like Lexus and an exciting enthusiast brand like Porsche. BMW used to be much closer to Porsche in their enthusiast/driver's credentials compared to their direct competitors Mercedes and Audi. This is the reason BMW has had such a following up to now.
I think this is debatable since allmost none of the follow up models in the BMW lineup is inferior regarding driving dynamics than the predecessor. What is true, is that BMW no more harshly sacrifices ride comfort for the gain of the last bit of dynamics. Is this bad? I don't think so, because 98% of BMW drivers (even the cheeky one) are not able to bring a current 1/3/5 .. to its limits... first they run out of driving skills.

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Today however I would say the opposite. Mercedes has the Black Series Cars and the SLS, Audi has multiple RS cars and the R8. BMW has a fake M car (1M) and a few sporty-ish luxury cruisers with big engines (M3, M5, M6). I don't know about you guys but if I were buying something new or from the last 5 years based on enthusiasts/driver's credentials... BMW would come in a distant third to Audi and Mercedes.
Are you serious about this?
The Audi RS cars? Forget it. The RS5 came 3 1/2 years after the E92 M3. It lost to the E92 M3 in most of the tests, even if Audi had time enough to analyze the competitor. You speak about enthusiast/driver's credentials and then name Audi RS? Shall I laugh out loud? I've driven both cars. The RS5 is NO enthustiasts car compared to the M3 nose-heavy (150 kg more weight than M3) and artificially to drive (steering). Not (only) my opinion but of the most respected german sportscar mag and many other testers over the world...
The RS3? The same - this car with its idiotic front wheel-size (much wider than rear) is the greatest understeerer on earth. Every tester comparing it to the 1M comes to only one conclusion: boring, lame, no fun - 1M winner in almost every test. When talking about driving enthusiasts - no one of the enthusiasts considers an RS3 at all.

And AMG? The C63 is a musle car - funny but not as "rounded" as the M3. By the way - this is also the most common conclusion of the really enthusiastic testers that not only vote for sheer hp. In the region of small and nimble cars like the 1M - AMG has nothing.
And speaking about the BlackSeries? C'mon- C63BS is the same price category as the M3GTS.... At least at the Nürburgring Nordschleife they have almost identical lap times ... all the other BS models are priced in SuperCar regions (although not having the performance of super cars)....
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      01-03-2012, 08:42 PM   #53
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Why do many think BMW are losing it?

When they have significant new products such as the new BMW 1er , appearance is subjective but I do not think Tom Cruise reads this board and decided to give the 1er an impromptu facelift in Mission Impossible : Ghost Protocol.

The 1er is a fantastic new car and brings luxury class features to the Premium compact segment.

And then the new 3er which by all accounts has set the current Audi A4 and Mercedes-Benz C-Klasse back a few years thanks to it's continuing superiority in design and engineering. I will be slipping into a Sportline 320d when I return to work on Monday and I am looking forward to it as colleagues praise about the new 3er.

Both the 1er and 3er will be more profitable than the outgoing E87 and E90 series.

Two signifcant new products for 2012. And although the 1er has been available since September it has delivered especially high sales , something that will continue in 2012 with the arrival of more Performance and additional 3dr model.

Then the BMWi cars are the most important BMWs possibly of the company's lifetime. Two new concepts all new from the ground up. Distinctive design and highly individual. This is "Born Electric" not "Secondary Thought" this not an additional model or sports car electrified. This is what you have to do to cement the idea of sustainable mobility - You have to stand out and that is the core philosophy of BMWi. The cars are one thing but the range of applications that will be integrated with the cars are the way ahead and once again BMW leads.

So then you have BMW on top again as the worlds most efficient automobile manufacturer and globally the top luxury marque in terms of sales. And all that without a super high end sports car.
This might be why 'we' think BMW is losing it. The new 1er and 3er are more profitable; why should we, the customers, care? How do they become more profitable? Are the prices higher or are the parts cheaper? And how should this be good news for customers?

I have a 330i, but now there is a less powerful 328i. Less power, and more important, they forgot a few cylinders.
I've had a 330d. Now there is only a 320d.
I've had a 130i. The best thing we can buy now is a 120d-auto or a 118i with EfficientDynamics.
I've had a E34 M5. Brilliant, because the engine came from the M1, a true sportscar. The engine of the new M5 comes from an SUV.

The most brilliant Bimmers have special engines and a very good chassis. Now we don't see that special engines. The 1 M has a very good chassis, but it also has a stock-engine from some kind of haircutters-roadster. I truly love that car, but compared to the 2002 Turbo or E30 M3? Not so special. I don't even mention the M3 CSL here.

I think the i3 and i8 will be very good and very special, even revolutionary. But will they be the ultimate driving machine? Don't think so. BMW built a smart and efficient car before, the Isetta. May be the 700 too, the car that saved the company. But who loves BMW for these cars? Anybody?

And you keep saying BMW is profitable and efficient. But we don't buy cars because the manufacturer is profitable or efficient. We want the ultimate driving machine.
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      01-03-2012, 10:52 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manuelf View Post
I think this is debatable since allmost none of the follow up models in the BMW lineup is inferior regarding driving dynamics than the predecessor. What is true, is that BMW no more harshly sacrifices ride comfort for the gain of the last bit of dynamics. Is this bad? I don't think so, because 98% of BMW drivers (even the cheeky one) are not able to bring a current 1/3/5 .. to its limits... first they run out of driving skills.



Are you serious about this?
The Audi RS cars? Forget it. The RS5 came 3 1/2 years after the E92 M3. It lost to the E92 M3 in most of the tests, even if Audi had time enough to analyze the competitor. You speak about enthusiast/driver's credentials and then name Audi RS? Shall I laugh out loud? I've driven both cars. The RS5 is NO enthustiasts car compared to the M3 nose-heavy (150 kg more weight than M3) and artificially to drive (steering). Not (only) my opinion but of the most respected german sportscar mag and many other testers over the world...
The RS3? The same - this car with its idiotic front wheel-size (much wider than rear) is the greatest understeerer on earth. Every tester comparing it to the 1M comes to only one conclusion: boring, lame, no fun - 1M winner in almost every test. When talking about driving enthusiasts - no one of the enthusiasts considers an RS3 at all.

And AMG? The C63 is a musle car - funny but not as "rounded" as the M3. By the way - this is also the most common conclusion of the really enthusiastic testers that not only vote for sheer hp. In the region of small and nimble cars like the 1M - AMG has nothing.
And speaking about the BlackSeries? C'mon- C63BS is the same price category as the M3GTS.... At least at the Nürburgring Nordschleife they have almost identical lap times ... all the other BS models are priced in SuperCar regions (although not having the performance of super cars)....
I'm not saying the current RS-lineup is necessarily better than the current M lineup. What I'm saying is they have a better range of enthusiast products (largely because of the R8), which have a different but not necessarily worse philosophy. If you prefer or even require AWD, Audi is a much better option than BMW. Period. You or I may not agree with that ethos, but I would never look down on someone who prefers their sports cars AWD, and Audi is the absolute best in this category for their lineup. Then there is the R8, which is on a level far far beyond anything BMW has to offer.

Sure Mercedes are muscle cars, but that's the point. Once again a different philosophy that I would never look down on someone for preferring. There are probably more people in this country that regard muscle cars as "enthusiast cars" than those of us who prefer to drive handling machines. And yes their Black Series and SLS cars are priced into the stratosphere, but so is the M3 GTS. At least Mercedes has the balls to make the C63 Black Series along with other equally insane Black Series cars like the SL65 BS, and to sell them to actual customers here in the United States. The SLS is a legit super car as well. Who cares what these cars cost, their existence is good enough for the Halo effect to exist and make enthusiasts like me respect them and plan/dream to one day pick one up in the used market.

Meanwhile I currently have an E46 M3 and a Z3M Coupe (which replaced my previous Z4M coupe). I already have the best of what represents BMW and their philosophy in my opinion. I don't see anything since or in the pipeline that adds value to the supposed BMW philosophy above my current collection. Thus I would rather look elsewhere for cars that are the best at a different philosophy, than at a BMW that has regressed.
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      01-04-2012, 06:08 AM   #55
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Quote:
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I'm not saying the current RS-lineup is necessarily better than the current M lineup. What I'm saying is they have a better range of enthusiast products (largely because of the R8), which have a different but not necessarily worse philosophy. If you prefer or even require AWD, Audi is a much better option than BMW. Period. You or I may not agree with that ethos, but I would never look down on someone who prefers their sports cars AWD, and Audi is the absolute best in this category for their lineup. Then there is the R8, which is on a level far far beyond anything BMW has to offer.
Hmm - so I think we both can not aggree on this topic
You first started with naming Audi sportcars (RS) as a whole, when referring to enthusiasts cars... now you just move back to the R8...
Yes - correct: BMW has NO R8 competitor.
For every other model of the RS line BMW has a far more enthusiastic car offering.
And no - I am not looking down at the RS cars. Well engineered cars with its specific strengths. No doubt about it! But you brought up the "enthusiastic thingy" - and in this area (driving fun/thrilling/challenging) BMW M cars are far superior.

Maybe it is my fault that I see it this way: I am not in the position to buy a R8 V10 (the R8 V8 doesn't count in my opinion, since a car that costs twice as much as the E92M3 and looks like a supercar, but is not really faster than a bread and butter M3 on the track is ... questionable). Therefore Halo cars are not in my interest. I am in the position to buy a 1M Coupe or an upcoming M2 or at most a M3 (with lots of discussion with my wife of course ) - and in this area of enthusiasts cars BMW is unrivalled. And I will not estimate my M2 higher because of BMW producing a McLarenF1 successor - don't know whether there are really people out there who think their entry/mid level model gets better because the manufacturer also produces a 300.000 $ car?


Quote:
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Sure Mercedes are muscle cars, but that's the point. Once again a different philosophy that I would never look down on someone for preferring. There are probably more people in this country that regard muscle cars as "enthusiast cars" than those of us who prefer to drive handling machines.
Agreed - of course it is totally valid to prefer muscle car style cars!

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And yes their Black Series and SLS cars are priced into the stratosphere, but so is the M3 GTS. At least Mercedes has the balls to make the C63 Black Series along with other equally insane Black Series cars like the SL65 BS, and to sell them to actual customers here in the United States. The SLS is a legit super car as well. Who cares what these cars cost, their existence is good enough for the Halo effect to exist and make enthusiasts like me respect them and plan/dream to one day pick one up in the used market.
Hmm - same as above: I don't care whether a manufacturer "has the balls" to produce a totally overpriced car (even more when performance figures do not keep up with the price), which is totally out-of-reach for me and 99% of the customers of that brand. Yes: the M3 GTS is overpriced, too (at least it is limited - so used car prices will not drop as much as BS prices ). I do not cheerish BMW for producing it. I don't think normal BMWs are sportier because of M3 GTS existence...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
Meanwhile I currently have an E46 M3 and a Z3M Coupe (which replaced my previous Z4M coupe). I already have the best of what represents BMW and their philosophy in my opinion. I don't see anything since or in the pipeline that adds value to the supposed BMW philosophy above my current collection. Thus I would rather look elsewhere for cars that are the best at a different philosophy, than at a BMW that has regressed.
For this category of cars: Drive the 1M. Drive its successor M2. Both should absolutely delight you.
Regarding the Z line - I agree to you. We have to wait whether BMW decides to offer really sporty successors. I am currently drivin a E86 Z4 Coupe 3.0si. It's a really drivers car. E89 gained some 200kg weight due to its hardtop and size increase. Maybe in the future ///M will take care of a Z2 or Z4-follow up...

bye,
Manuel
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      01-04-2012, 09:05 AM   #56
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Snipe, waar bemoei jij je nu weer mee man?
If there is ONE BMW //M that's overrated in price/power/performance it's the E30 M3.The engine is rubbish(Stock) And I've driven a few and u too. If you want to call that a supercar, I'll call you Brad Pitt.LOL

About the 1M: That N54 is a brilliant and POWERFUL stock engine and way better than a V8 M in real life(been there done that) plus it's more efficient less stressfull and just as fast/faster for less money.

And come to think of it when was the last time BMW(///M) built a real supercar? The BMW M1? Fair Enough....M3 CSL. Great car but not a real supercar....

Scott26: well spoken.
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      01-04-2012, 09:14 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O-cha View Post
Then you've never driven a Z4Mcoupe or have a really weird definition of a sports car.

The car handles extremely well
It's a 2 seater coupe
Utility is compromised for performance
Comfort is compromised for performance
The engine is very high performance
For a factory car it has very fitting seats
It looks flashy
It can be raced on a race track for hours and be fine


the list could go on, but these are things most people would use to define a sports car (not necessarily all by one person but from different peoples perspectives). It's as much of a sports car as a lotus Elise is. Just because it's not as fast as a ferrari 430 doesn't mean it's not a sports car. The rest of BMWs modern performance cars are GT cars.


First of all, saying the Z4 a sportscar doesn't necessarily make it so. And believe me, it does not give me any joy to have to make that clear. I'm a guy who drives a modified 1M that may very easily rip your MCoupe a new asshole on the track, but even I have to face the fact that my car is NOT a sports car either.

So let's review...
At core, a sports car is a no-compromise, purpose-dedicated speed racer.
2-seater. Hardtop. Designed with the most power and lightest weight possible.

Although the Z4 is "utility compromised," it is not sufficiently dedicated due to the fact that it is a convertible. The chassis is over-built to compensate for the lack of rigidity when the top is down. With exception of a few true hardtop MCoupes no longer in production, the Z4 on the market today, is not designed primarily for sports racing.

To go further, here is a list of cars that are also NOT sports cars by definition:

Audi TT
BMW Z4
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Corvette Convertible (corrected)
Dodge Viper Convertible (corrected)
Mercedes-Benz SLK
Mazda MX-5 Miata
Porsche Boxster

So here is my beef with BMW...

Although, the Porsche Boxster may not be a true sports car, the Porsche monicker has a plethora of other models that fit the bill well. If the Z4 is not a true sports car, then where is BMW's alternative offering? Nada. Nothing. Zilch. Zero.

I don't buy the argument either that creating a sports car would not be profitable. Just ask all of the nutty buyers out there who clamored to pay a premium over sticker to get their 1M.
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2011 1 Series M Coupe VO M3 vs 1M Comparo Review
2011 M3 E90 DCT ZCP (sold) * 2010 335i Sedan (sold)
2005 M3 Convertible (sold) * 2003 325i Sedan (sold)

Last edited by James T. Kirk; 01-04-2012 at 02:04 PM.
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      01-04-2012, 09:15 AM   #58
Harold Wood
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Surely a low volume supercar would have a beneficial effect to the company especially the design network. I love motorsport and BMW,s involvement with DTM but could this also be classed as vanity.
I know BMW will say a lot of development from DTM will filter down to their road vehicles but there are cheaper forms of the sport.
The i8 is a great development vehicle with brilliant BMW design and engineering that I can’t wait to see on the road but I would also like to see a supercar that showcases BMW,s high performance engines.
Perhaps a joint effort with Mclaren Automotive that could cover both road and track. An Alpina Mclaren at LeMans now there is a thought.
I must admit there have been some brilliant views on this thread that I am sure will run for along time
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      01-04-2012, 09:42 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Techguy111 View Post
Thats shows how g ay bmws are. We dont need to build supercars..... lame. Pm tech guy to hook up dudes
Au contraire, (nothing against gay people) real men don't let their character/ importance/thinking/presence depend on IF their carbrand brings out a supercar or NOT. They just go and buy the finest/best car there is for their money.

It would be fine if BMW build a supercar, but it's not the end of the world if not imo.
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      01-04-2012, 09:49 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post

To go further, here is a list of cars that are also NOT sports cars by definition:

Audi TT
BMW Z4
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Corvette
Dodge Viper
Mercedes-Benz SLK
Mazda MX-5 Miata
Porsche Boxster

.
Which definition are you going by? I would have to disagree with you on cars like the Vette, Viper, and Boxter. They may not be super, hyper, or race cars, but they are sports cars (especially at their price points) and designed to go fast
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      01-04-2012, 10:02 AM   #61
James T. Kirk
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Originally Posted by kyleb350 View Post
Which definition are you going by? I would have to disagree with you on cars like the Vette, Viper, and Boxter. They may not be super, hyper, or race cars, but they are sports cars (especially at their price points) and designed to go fast
Any convertible is not a true sports car. They may be sport convertible, but not a dedicated SPORTS CAR.

Believe me, the semantics suck. I think it's ridiculous, too. I think the best test of any performance vehicle is how quickly it can go around a track which requires speed and handling. If your X6M can go around The Ring faster than someone else's Porsche, then you really have the best racer.

But what we're talking about here is defining a "class" of vehicle that for whatever reason, BMW has chosen to OPT-OUT of. I'm just saying that this omission is peculiar and certainly would have a market if BMW "showed up."

Back to the OP's topic, I will go further to say that a BMW "sports car class" would also be necessary before trying to jump to a "super car class."
.
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2011 1 Series M Coupe VO M3 vs 1M Comparo Review
2011 M3 E90 DCT ZCP (sold) * 2010 335i Sedan (sold)
2005 M3 Convertible (sold) * 2003 325i Sedan (sold)
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      01-04-2012, 10:03 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Robin Hood View Post
If there is ONE BMW //M that's overrated in price/power/performance it's the E30 M3.The engine is rubbish(Stock) And I've driven a few and u too. If you want to call that a supercar, I'll call you Brad Pitt.LOL
Actually, last week a girl on a bike was staring at me. She almost fell off her bike. So who says I'm not Brad Pitt?

Or was she looking at the SLS AMG Roadster I drove at that moment? ;-)
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      01-04-2012, 10:07 AM   #63
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Actually, last week a girl on a bike was staring at me. She almost fell off her bike. So who says I'm not Brad Pitt?

Or was she looking at the SLS AMG Roadster I drove at that moment? ;-)
Talking about supercars, where are those pics of you in the SLS and Advevo in the M5 for example. I can't wait to see them.
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      01-04-2012, 12:32 PM   #64
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I think BMW is already in super car status....its the Ultimate Driving Machine. Groups like HPF make this car better than most super cars.... just love what you own. Especially if its an M series.
I have to agree. Sometimes making changes or adding features can ruin the car instead of improve it.
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      01-04-2012, 01:03 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
Any convertible is not a true sports car. They may be sport convertible, but not a dedicated SPORTS CAR.

Believe me, the semantics suck. I think it's ridiculous, too. I think the best test of any performance vehicle is how quickly it can go around a track which requires speed and handling. If your X6M can go around The Ring faster than someone else's Porsche, then you really have the best racer.

But what we're talking about here is defining a "class" of vehicle that for whatever reason, BMW has chosen to OPT-OUT of. I'm just saying that this omission is peculiar and certainly would have a market if BMW "showed up."

Back to the OP's topic, I will go further to say that a BMW "sports car class" would also be necessary before trying to jump to a "super car class."
.
Careful buddy, there are a lot of z4 converts here that will make you wonder why you bought a 1M. I mean you wanna touch on semantics about what defines a sports car and all which is fine and dandy if you wanna dress up your paragraph to pass it off as a well constructed thought. But the same thing happens when you pop the hood on your 1M. You realize that your engine, just like you paragraph, may seem well dressed, but its not the real thing...its just not a real M.
So in the disscussion of dedicated sports car semantics, you should pop your own hood, and then take a look at the s54 that sits inside these roadsters (which are convertibles) and tell me which one is a dedicated M.
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      01-04-2012, 01:04 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James T. Kirk View Post
First of all, saying the Z4 a sportscar doesn't necessarily make it so. And believe me, it does not give me any joy to have to make that clear. I'm a guy who drives a modified 1M that may very easily rip your MCoupe a new asshole on the track, but even I have to face the fact that my car is NOT a sports car either.

So let's review...
At core, a sports car is a no-compromise, purpose-dedicated speed racer.
2-seater. Hardtop. Designed with the most power and lightest weight possible.

Although the Z4 is "utility compromised," it is not sufficiently dedicated due to the fact that it is a convertible. The chassis is over-built to compensate for the lack of rigidity when the top is down. With exception of a few true hardtop MCoupes no longer in production, the Z4 on the market today, is not designed primarily for sports racing.

To go further, here is a list of cars that are also NOT sports cars by definition:

Audi TT
BMW Z4
Cadillac XLR
Chevrolet Corvette
Dodge Viper
Mercedes-Benz SLK
Mazda MX-5 Miata
Porsche Boxster

So here is my beef with BMW...

Although, the Porsche Boxster may not be a true sports car, the Porsche monicker has a plethora of other models that fit the bill well. If the Z4 is not a true sports car, then where is BMW's alternative offering? Nada. Nothing. Zilch. Zero.

I don't buy the argument either that creating a sports car would not be profitable. Just ask all of the nutty buyers out there who clamored to pay a premium over sticker to get their 1M.
.
First, read my post I said Z4MCOUPE not current gen Z4, thank you for agreeing with me that the Z4Mcoupe is a sports car, continuing on.

Quote:
So let's review...
At core, a sports car is a no-compromise, purpose-dedicated speed racer.
You are defining a RACE CAR not a sports car. A sports car is a road car built with performance in mind, while not heavily compromising to make the car utilitarian. IE a minivan can never be a sports car.

You are correct, your 1m is NOT a sports car, nowhere near it. I wouldn't even call it a grand tourer like the m5 or m6.

Being slow or fast around a track does not make a car a sports car, equally so being "slow" around a track does not eliminate a car from being a sports car (or even a race car for that matter).

If you think a corvette is not a sports car, then you are simply delusional and have no idea what the definition of a sports car is, so clearly discussing any of this with you is pointless.
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