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      01-12-2012, 03:42 PM   #1
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C&D 2012 Lightning Lap Results

Just got this on the iPad. Thought I´d share and discuss.

Vette ZR1 2:50.7
GT-R (2012) 2:53.2
Panamera Turbo S 3:00.7
Boss 302 Laguna Seca 3:02.8 Impressive bang for the buck. Excellent.
Cayman R 3:03.9
TT-RS 3:04.8
MB CLS63 AMG Coupe 3:04.9 Impressive for such a huge beast.
Evora S 3:05.3
MB C63 AMG Coupe 3:06.3 Still behind the M3.
1M 3:06.6 About where it should fall.
Challenger SRT-8 392 3:09.4
Charger SRT-8 3:10.1
Z4 sDrive 35is 3:10.4
X5M 3:11.1 Crazy for an SUV.
335is 3:13.8
Golf R 3:14.0
Jeep GC SRT8 3:17.4
MINI Cooper JCW Coupe 3:18.4
Honda Civic Si 3:24.1
Jetta GLI 3:27.3 Disappointing.
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      01-12-2012, 04:27 PM   #2
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ZR1 SMOKED the GT-R.
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      01-12-2012, 09:29 PM   #3
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LOL... nice job Nine... Is this you turning the thread into a GT-R Thread? Just wanted to call that out first... before you get all defensive later.

As long as you realize it takes R Comopound Tires to do it. And nothing with a backseat comes close.

Hows the M3 fairing? How many seconds behind a Mustang is that now?
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      01-12-2012, 10:32 PM   #4
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PS-Cups are hardly superior to RE070r's. Fractionally. That's a very very fast "road" tire that puts up very well with lots of heat.

In terms of M3 vs Boss Laguna we are talking about a car that dyno's 330-340whp with back seats and and a car that dyno's 405-420rwhp and has chassis support bars instead of back seats. I'm not even going into the torque numbers, it fell where it should've (impressive time at that) and they've never run an M3 ZCP at lightning lap
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      01-12-2012, 11:00 PM   #5
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Fractionally? You should do some research on the Cup's that are unique to the Z06/ZR1 by Michelin... 1/32nd less tread than their standard Cups... less 'grooves' overall... much closer to a dedicated track tire now. You're correct on the original PS-Cups... but not the new round offered exclusively for the Vette.

Dave
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      01-13-2012, 01:55 AM   #6
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Dave,

You really enjoy the 'flame the vettes because they chose those kind of tires and therefore all times faster than the GTR are pretty much pointless because the GTR does not use those kind of tires so the times are not fair and I need my GTR to be the best' argument don't you?

(you beat me today with post #5 instead of post #10 on the other thread where you made a fuss about corvettes and their tires)
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      01-13-2012, 01:58 AM   #7
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i really wish there were some times in between the GTR and the panamera turbo s though, that is quite a gap without much perspective of what is in between.
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      01-13-2012, 03:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Fractionally? You should do some research on the Cup's that are unique to the Z06/ZR1 by Michelin... 1/32nd less tread than their standard Cups... less 'grooves' overall... much closer to a dedicated track tire now. You're correct on the original PS-Cups... but not the new round offered exclusively for the Vette.

Dave
A shaved tire is what all competitive competition auto crossers, including myself, do to their tires (R compound or not) before an event in order to get to the 'sweet' spot

Put RE11's, AD08's, Re070r, Pilot SS on a Z06/ZR1 (not the ancient Eagle F1 OE tire) then put on PS cups equipped on a GT3 or ZR1, which are the "n-spec" cup tire, not the race spec PSCup.
Shave either of them or leave them be and check your times and get back to me....
I've been around data logging this type of information since I was 14 years old.

A Ps-Cup "n-spec" is by no means a fast R comp (also equipped on M3 ZCP's), it falls more in line with a excellent summer tire in terms of what speeds/times it is capable of but they do put up with heat well. The plus side vs. other R comps, is they are street friendly, have a longer life and they are treaded. The downside, is they aren't that fast...
If your still trying to craft my point, it's that just because it says R compound does not mean it's instantly a x second advantage over a 180 tread wear summer tire. An Bridgestone RE11 (180 IIRC treadwear) is simply a faster tire then numerous R compounds available in these circumstances, but one just would not necessarily have the consistency if he were to run numerous laps, on a hot day with a professional driver.

However, you did bring up a good point that I did not know, and that's that the tire comes shaved from the factory just for magazine bragging #'s. That is just unfair as one would benefit significantly from shaving RS3's, RE11's, RE070r's etc. etc. as well
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      01-13-2012, 10:27 AM   #9
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Muskamatt... you don't know me very well... sorry... actually still race corvettes... and think they are great cars... if the GTR had race tires... I'd cry foul too...

Personally... I've been saying for 15 years... I wish all of these comparisons would use a spec tire... to help 'level' the field. As some manufactures would choose just 'horrendous' street tires... and others would choose great ones. Most of the manufactures now have stepped up to all using a quality tire... and in my opinion the best 'all round' performance tire is the regular Michelin PS2.

Onourleft... completely agree about shaving tires... done it for years and won multiple national championships back in the BFG R1 days... when we needed to... now almost all 'race tires' come molded to 4 5 or 6/32nd... and that's made life a bit easier!

The PS-Cup's are not the same on the Vettes as the others... go to tirerack... and you can research the three 'models' of cup tires.

Musk... by the way... the ZR1 beat the GTR and many others... in 2010 with the 'standard' PS2's also... ZR1 is the real deal... and I have plenty of posts 'around here' stating it is the SuperCar that put all manufactures on notice.

Dave
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      01-13-2012, 10:37 AM   #10
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Last year a Z06 with the Z07 package and PS2's produced THE SAME TIME AS THE 2012 GTR did this year!!!!!!

The driving in this test is also far too amateur and erratic to read deep into these times.
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      01-13-2012, 12:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
LOL... nice job Nine... Is this you turning the thread into a GT-R Thread? Just wanted to call that out first... before you get all defensive later.

As long as you realize it takes R Comopound Tires to do it. And nothing with a backseat comes close.

Hows the M3 fairing? How many seconds behind a Mustang is that now?

Rather ironic that it is you turning this into a GT-R thread. The M3 was not even in the article or test

Each manufacturer has the choice to equip their car with whatever they want, for example the GT3RS. Stop crying foul.


Calling a track edition car like the laguna seca mustang, just a mustang, well you're just trolling.
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      01-13-2012, 01:37 PM   #12
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what was the past M3 time? Also were teh drivers the same? Course changes?
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      01-13-2012, 03:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
LOL... nice job Nine... Is this you turning the thread into a GT-R Thread? Just wanted to call that out first... before you get all defensive later.

As long as you realize it takes R Comopound Tires to do it. And nothing with a backseat comes close.

Hows the M3 fairing? How many seconds behind a Mustang is that now?
The M3 tested before posted a 3:05.4 time, which, as noted, is faster than the C63 coupe's time.

As far as the Laguna Seca Mustang, that car runs R-Compounds and has an X-brace where the back seat used to be. I'm sure this was your point in reference to the GT-R/ZR1, but the M3 hardly competes with a car like this. Furthermore, it's misleading to suggest the GT-R is somehow handicapped by its custom engineered, even sticker than last year's Dunlop model runflats. I've yet tot see any real hard evidence of a GT-R with a DOT legal R-compound (Toyo R888 for example) tire outperform the stock Dunlops in a well controlled test.
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      01-13-2012, 04:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine View Post
ZR1 SMOKED the GT-R.
Funny how after all those times are posted, you only focus on two cars; one being the GTR.
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      01-13-2012, 04:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konaforever View Post
Funny how after all those times are posted, you only focus on two cars; one being the GTR.
It's funny how? Funny like I amuse you? Do you think I'm funny?
(goodfellas for the noobs)

The GT-R is the new benchmark for performance cars, it will be rather odd to have a performance competition and not use the GT-R's times as a reference point. Lately the z06/zR1 are turning the discussion, setting times that redefine the benchmark, could it be a changing of the guard, maybe a different guard...but the GT-R will always be the at the front of performance competitions and discussions.
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      01-13-2012, 04:53 PM   #16
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Here's a link to someone else's image of the results.
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      01-13-2012, 05:24 PM   #17
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VIR is also very big with lots of long straights which favor high power cars over chassis dynamics. Stick these cars on a smaller course like the Street of Willow and you're likely to see a much different result.

Case in point: The GT-R is faster than the Corvette Z06 Z07 package at Street of Willow

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...0/viewall.html

Where the GT-R was slower than the same Corvette at Laguna Seca.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...r/viewall.html

So take the comparisons with a grain of salt.

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      01-13-2012, 09:12 PM   #18
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Good Points on the C63 coupe... I gotta admit... I'd be a bit embarrassed if I'm getting whooped on the road course by the CLS63! WOW! Would have never guessed that one.

Dave
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      01-14-2012, 06:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Good Points on the C63 coupe... I gotta admit... I'd be a bit embarrassed if I'm getting whooped on the road course by the CLS63! WOW! Would have never guessed that one.

Dave
The CLS is fast for what it is but not very fun, IMO, to drive. It would do well I think here because stock tires are meatier than the C63 and big power. However, it isn't as responsive, fun, controlled or as nimble as the C63 (which is less nimble than the M3) in my experience. Still a very fast car though. I know the only way to truly compare is stock but with better tires on the C63 (rather than 235/255 Contis), it would have been faster IMO than the CLS63. It certainly "feels" faster and is MUCH more fun to drive on the track.
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      01-14-2012, 08:02 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
VIR is also very big with lots of long straights which favor high power cars over chassis dynamics. Stick these cars on a smaller course like the Street of Willow and you're likely to see a much different result.

Case in point: The GT-R is faster than the Corvette Z06 Z07 package at Street of Willow

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...0/viewall.html

Where the GT-R was slower than the same Corvette at Laguna Seca.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...r/viewall.html

So take the comparisons with a grain of salt.
The difference between this test and lightning lap is RANDY POBST, a professional...lightning lap is done by amateurs!

The test at willow, the cars are virtually equal, I'm sure Randy would even agree, your arguing over a tenth or 2. Then you take the Mazda Raceway test and the Z06 has the "tire advantage" and beats the GTR by 2 SECONDS.

Summary:
GTR with softer "street" tires .1-.3 quicker
Z06 with softer "street" tires 2 seconds quicker
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      01-14-2012, 05:26 PM   #21
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I would love to see what a ZCP car would do. The M3 they tested in 08 and 09 obviously weren't ZCP cars. It may just do marginally better but maybe it would have beaten a CLS 63 AMG which it now trails by a few tenths.

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      01-14-2012, 07:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
Good Points on the C63 coupe... I gotta admit... I'd be a bit embarrassed if I'm getting whooped on the road course by the CLS63! WOW! Would have never guessed that one.

Dave
lol, I am sure you are annoyed to get whipped by the M5 lol! And the CLS 63.
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