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      07-18-2007, 09:52 PM   #89
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They are all over your backyard...not being really trained like that and have their bombs strapped around them. But that is not the point -- one extrimist does it that way, the other one does it the other way. What is black for me, may be blue for you...
I lived in FL for 15+ years and I did meet some people with master's degrees that hated (ALL) Muslims just because the 9-11 events. We have seen the instances where the gas stations or convenient store clerks were shot just for being Muslims (after the 9-11). So, extremism is present everywhere in one form or the other... Some of it you see every day on the news. We were trained and programmed to HATE Saddam -- we watched about his bad doings daily just before the invasion. That is what some of them watch over there -- bad things our Government supported...

In the end, peace is the only way to go and lately I just don't see us showing World the examples of that...
My backyard? You are dodging the question with general bloviation. You added nothing relevant to my question, and did not show me examples as I asked for, of kids being trained to hate and kill Muslims by christian churches and christian pastors. Anyone else want to speak for Uncle? His comment about Christians vs. Muslims was, "In fact, I can think of many who looked just like that photo of recruiting kids in the hood." Let's see it. Where are the Baptists, Presbyterians and Lutherans who are training their kids to kill Muslims—after all, as the stupid title of this silly thread implies; Islam is a religion like other religions, right? Okay, prove it—with all due respect, put up or shut up.
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      07-18-2007, 09:57 PM   #90
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My backyard? You are dodging the question with general bloviation. You added nothing relevant to my question, and did not show me examples as I asked for, of kids being trained to hate and kill Muslims by christian churches and christian pastors. Anyone else want to speak for Uncle? His comment about Christians vs. Muslims was, "In fact, I can think of many who looked just like that photo of recruiting kids in the hood." Let's see it. Where are the Baptists, Presbyterians and Lutherans who are training their kids to kill Muslims—after all, as the stupid title of this silly thread implies; Islam is a religion like other religions, right? Okay, prove it—with all due respect, put up or shut up.
I am quite sure he did not mean that literally -- but in the same sense -- as I told you.
Something lie Muslim extremists go and blow up the WTC and kill 3000 innocent, then Bush goes to Iraq and does Colleteral Damage killing 30,000. I see it in a similar way, you may not...
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      07-18-2007, 10:04 PM   #91
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I am quite sure he did not mean that literally -- but in the same sense -- as I told you.
Something lie Muslim extremists go and blow up the WTC and kill 3000 innocent, then Bush goes to Iraq and does Colleteral Damage killing 30,000. I see it in a similar way, you may not...
You are off topic AGAIN. Bush is not a religious leader, and religion is the topic here, comparative actually. And why do you see the need to keep speaking for another member? Does he not have a keyboard? You made your weak, politically-laced attempt at a point, and you failed to answer my question, so who's next?
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      07-18-2007, 11:30 PM   #92
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I was away. I was thinking the Arian/KKK groups that were oh so prevelant in the 20/30/40/50s. Not as vocal these days, but still part of a group I would clasify as extremist christian, at least in part.
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      07-19-2007, 07:00 AM   #93
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You are off topic AGAIN. Bush is not a religious leader, and religion is the topic here, comparative actually. And why do you see the need to keep speaking for another member? Does he not have a keyboard? You made your weak, politically-laced attempt at a point, and you failed to answer my question, so who's next?
Does he have to be a religious leader preaching from a pulpit to qualify? Even though he's the President of the USA I highly doubt people worldwide will just think of it as a political thing but also associate Christianity with it.
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      07-19-2007, 08:20 AM   #94
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Please do not compare smart and brave leaders fromt the WW2 and aly engagement at those times with the mess we have now. The only common thing is poor brave soldiers... We were restected then, and...definitely not now.
There is nothing MORAL in invading a sovereign country and (accidentally or not) killing innocent. Brings us to the same level as the bad guy invading Kuwait...

Are you kidding about Kore and Vietnam?
Serbia was invaded from air, again led by the USA and again without the UN SC approval. However, at that time, we had more suppoprt (or shoudl I say less opposition).

Sorry, I meant 100M people, since we will not count the opinion of younger than 18, and non-citizens.

I never argued that the Afghanistan thing was a bad idea, everything after that was bad. If we stuck to the initial plan, we would have been safer, Al Qaeda would not exist, OBL would have been captured, and at least 3400 US soldiers would be still alive.

Them killing our civilians in NYC/DC does not justify us killing a single Iraqi or Afghani civilian...
Who is comparing leaders? I am comparing situations and events and I must confess you have me very confused now.

Are you saying the invasion of France on 6 June 1944 was morally permissible or not? France was a sovereign country who had never attacked us and posed no imminent threat to us. What right did we have injected ourselves into a civil war between the French loyal to Pétain and those loyal to de Gaulle? How could we possibly have been justified in causing the deaths of thousands of French civilians? Didn't we realize that we were just going to make our enemies hate us more?

Now you also seem to be advocating we invade Pakistan as well. That is where the remnants of al Qaeda fled after we invaded Afghanistan. Is that what you mean by sticking "to the initial plan"? Invading an allied country with nuclear weapons?

I wish you would clear this up for me.


PS, those 100 million people you speak of have a voice in the government, they simply choose not to speak up.
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      07-19-2007, 08:22 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Ninjaneer View Post
Does he have to be a religious leader preaching from a pulpit to qualify? Even though he's the President of the USA I highly doubt people worldwide will just think of it as a political thing but also associate Christianity with it.
Well, that is where people worldwide would be wrong. And even if your weak argument was true, I don't see any U.S. president declaring a "holy" war on the "great Satan of Islam" and training 10 year olds to detonate bombs. You people can squirm like eels but there is no defense for the horrible practices of this religion and all you can do is try to politicize the debate. I'll say it again; (take notes this time please)—the topic is NOT G.W. Bush, it is NOT political. The thread attempts to equate Islam with other religions. I don't believe that can be done. In fact, Islam runs hand in hand with hatred, it has blossomed into a global monster; an oppressive, freedom-crushing, intolerant tree of hate. The "proof is in the pudding" as they say, the fruit of Islam is plain to see, and I have proven that. I'm not angry at any of you, but I am tired of people trying to defend hate, and EQUATE the teachings of Christ with the teachings of the murderer named Mohammad.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...inst_chri.html

As I said in the beginning, I can certainly have respect for peace loving Muslim people, but I have lost all respect for Islam itself. Hopefully Islamics will police their own ranks and prune out "the offensive few," if that is actually the case and not just a miscalculation of the real numbers. Then, maybe one day I will change my view, but for now I see too much rotten fruit—which is exactly what Christ warned us about regarding religious posers.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt 7)
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      07-19-2007, 08:44 AM   #96
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I was away. I was thinking the Arian/KKK groups that were oh so prevelant in the 20/30/40/50s. Not as vocal these days, but still part of a group I would clasify as extremist christian, at least in part.
20/30/40/50s??? Not religious groups, not relevant to this discussion and not even close to the millions murdered by the global menace of Islam. But, nontheless—can you show me a case of the KKK of the great State of Alabama training school kids to hate out of text books? Here ya go:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13804825/

Can you show me a Christian church today with a Wednesday night KKK meeting for kids to train them to kill Muslims?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=17707
http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc1021.php
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      07-19-2007, 09:06 AM   #97
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Who is comparing leaders? I am comparing situations and events and I must confess you have me very confused now.

Are you saying the invasion of France on 6 June 1944 was morally permissible or not? France was a sovereign country who had never attacked us and posed no imminent threat to us. What right did we have injected ourselves into a civil war between the French loyal to Pétain and those loyal to de Gaulle? How could we possibly have been justified in causing the deaths of thousands of French civilians? Didn't we realize that we were just going to make our enemies hate us more?

Now you also seem to be advocating we invade Pakistan as well. That is where the remnants of al Qaeda fled after we invaded Afghanistan. Is that what you mean by sticking "to the initial plan"? Invading an allied country with nuclear weapons?

I wish you would clear this up for me.


PS, those 100 million people you speak of have a voice in the government, they simply choose not to speak up.
Again, the WW2 events have nothing to do with it:
1) We did not invade France, we invaded the enemy that occupied France territory. We were invited by France and the alies to help and we did so. Completely opposite from the events of today where we invaded the country that (AT THE TIME OF INVASION OR 10 years prior to that) has not done us or our alies any bad thing.
Two completely different things!

2) You cannot compare our role in the WW2 where the France invasion is the only thing we have done, but we call ourselves some liberators... We just helped finish off what others started (Russia, etc), then we commited the worst crime of the 20th century -- Hiroshima and Nagasaki (topic of otther discussion). Today, we play the world police and keep invading whoever we wish, and keep killing whoever we choose (see current Marine cases of the WAR CRIMES that happened in Iraq). Interesting, the war crimes comitted by known people in Former Yugoslavia (for example) lead to locking up the whole leadership, up to the top (Milosevic). Are Bush and Chaney going to be questioned about the crimes in Iraq??? Are ANY leaders going to be questioned?

And, by the way, these, poorly planned and executed) events are probably the last world policing by us, as they pushed us back in EVERY sense way, way back...
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      07-19-2007, 09:08 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by FloridaBoy View Post
Well, that is where people worldwide would be wrong. And even if your weak argument was true, I don't see any U.S. president declaring a "holy" war on the "great Satan of Islam" and training 10 year olds to detonate bombs. You people can squirm like eels but there is no defense for the horrible practices of this religion and all you can do is try to politicize the debate. I'll say it again; (take notes this time please)—the topic is NOT G.W. Bush, it is NOT political. The thread attempts to equate Islam with other religions. I don't believe that can be done. In fact, Islam runs hand in hand with hatred, it has blossomed into a global monster; an oppressive, freedom-crushing, intolerant tree of hate. The "proof is in the pudding" as they say, the fruit of Islam is plain to see, and I have proven that. I'm not angry at any of you, but I am tired of people trying to defend hate, and EQUATE the teachings of Christ with the teachings of the murderer named Mohammad.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/...inst_chri.html

As I said in the beginning, I can certainly have respect for peace loving Muslim people, but I have lost all respect for Islam itself. Hopefully Islamics will police their own ranks and prune out "the offensive few," if that is actually the case and not just a miscalculation of the real numbers. Then, maybe one day I will change my view, but for now I see too much rotten fruit—which is exactly what Christ warned us about regarding religious posers.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt 7)
For some reason, Ganeil and I started a different discussion in the wrong thread (here), and I acknowledged that. Yes, our conversation has nothing to do with the topic title and we should probably move/continue our discusion somewhere else.
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      07-19-2007, 09:56 AM   #99
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The KKK didn't have their own "textbooks"??? Granted, not on the order of what you are showing in the Suadi countries. But that first picture was a bunch of hooded men and a small child. Gotta remember lots of those photos associated with KKK. And there were "modifications" of biblical verses to indicate the Africans and Jews were to be hated and destroyed, in the literature circulated under the name of the KKK.

I was merely pointing out an example of my idea that it is HUMAN nature, at least for a proportion of the race, and not necessesarily a (insert religion here) nature
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      07-19-2007, 10:04 AM   #100
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Again, the WW2 events have nothing to do with it:
1) We did not invade France, we invaded the enemy that occupied France territory. We were invited by France and the alies to help and we did so. Completely opposite from the events of today where we invaded the country that (AT THE TIME OF INVASION OR 10 years prior to that) has not done us or our alies any bad thing.
Two completely different things!
Again, your knowledge of history is lacking. The National Assembly of France, when facing certain defeat, handed power to Pétain with the understanding that he would surrender to Germany. When France surrendered, it allowed German forces to occupy certain portions of its territory but it retained administrative control of that territory. The French government that maintained that administrative control over the sovereign nation of France most certainly did not invite us to invade its territory. Take a look at the opposition the French forces put up against the Allied landings at Oran and Morocco in 1942.


Quote:
2) You cannot compare our role in the WW2 where the France invasion is the only thing we have done, but we call ourselves some liberators... We just helped finish off what others started (Russia, etc), then we commited the worst crime of the 20th century -- Hiroshima and Nagasaki (topic of otther discussion). Today, we play the world police and keep invading whoever we wish, and keep killing whoever we choose (see current Marine cases of the WAR CRIMES that happened in Iraq). Interesting, the war crimes comitted by known people in Former Yugoslavia (for example) lead to locking up the whole leadership, up to the top (Milosevic). Are Bush and Chaney going to be questioned about the crimes in Iraq??? Are ANY leaders going to be questioned?
This is such a babbling, mish-mash of disjointed ideas, I do not know how to respond.

The Russians started the defeat of Germany? They joined the fight against Germany in June 1941, over a year after the Brits and only 6 months before the US.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the President ordered those Marines (who are being prosecuted) to do what they are alleged to have done?

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were worse crimes(?) than the Rape of Nanking?, the German's Final Solution?, Pol Pot's Killing Fields?, or even the bombings of Tokyo or Dresden?
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      07-19-2007, 10:17 AM   #101
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ganeil, I like your style. Keep the heat on.
Thanks!

Keep up the good fight.
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      07-19-2007, 11:15 AM   #102
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The Russians started the defeat of Germany? They joined the fight against Germany in June 1941, over a year after the Brits and only 6 months before the US.
Now this is a bunch of outright bullshit dictated by your unquestionable acceptance of the continuing hostility of the US government towards Russia. The Brits started to defeat Germany in 1941? "Joining the war" does not meaning starting to win the war.

Read this article about the turning point in the WWII, the beginnning of the Nazi's end, and the role of Soviet army in bringing about that end:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
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      07-19-2007, 11:38 AM   #103
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Now this is a bunch of outright bullshit dictated by your unquestionable acceptance of the continuing hostility of the US government towards Russia. The Brits started to defeat Germany in 1941? "Joining the war" does not meaning starting to win the war.

Read this article about the turning point in the WWII, the beginnning of the Nazi's end, and the role of Soviet army in bringing about that end:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
Can't talk with the brainwashed soldier that thinks that only the USA and Britain have war history and history at all.
Russia lost 25M people in the WW2, we lost a few hundred thousand, if that much. And he's telling me that Brits and USA did almost the same or more than Russia in the WW2.

Then he compares the Iraq fiasco with the Normandy and WW2 events, defeating Germany that tried to occupy the world. Here is Saddam that according to Bush/Chaney's dreams tried something...in last 10 years

Finally, none of the events that Ganeil mentioned did not wipe 200k INNOCENT lives in less than one minute. YES, the worst crime against humanity EVER!
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      07-19-2007, 11:42 AM   #104
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Do you have any evidence to suggest that the President ordered those Marines (who are being prosecuted) to do what they are alleged to have done?
Do you have ANY evidence (not he said she said interviews with some paid idiots) that Milosevic ordered any of things in Former YU. He's dead now, it does not matter...

And you really think that any evidence against Bush/Chaney would ever surface even if present. You think that evidence that Bush knew about the WMD and went into a sovereign country for personal gain would ever come out.

Again, I have read/seen and worked on the satellites that can read the street sign from over there, and you're telling me that it is acceptable to have a "bad intel" about a huge thing called the WMD, and destroy the country and justify it just because of the bad intel...

BS

If Bush hangs over this, I will accept the world justice, otherwise...BS
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      07-19-2007, 12:28 PM   #105
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Now this is a bunch of outright bullshit dictated by your unquestionable acceptance of the continuing hostility of the US government towards Russia. The Brits started to defeat Germany in 1941? "Joining the war" does not meaning starting to win the war.

Read this article about the turning point in the WWII, the beginnning of the Nazi's end, and the role of Soviet army in bringing about that end:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
I am well familiar with the role the Soviets played in defeating the Germans. Nothing I said diminishes that role.

Nor do I need a Wiki article to understand and appreciate the significance of Stalingrad (or Kursk for that matter) in the downfall of the German Reich.

If Britain had crumbled after the fall of France, could the Soviets have successfully defeated a Germany with mastery of the seas?

Could they have held at Stalingrad if the Germans had been able to commit the two Army Groups that were committed elsewhere?

Who knows but the answers are irrelevant because the defeat of Germany was done jointly by the Allies and no one's role should be diminished.
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      07-19-2007, 01:06 PM   #106
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Can't talk with the brainwashed soldier that thinks that only the USA and Britain have war history and history at all.
Russia lost 25M people in the WW2, we lost a few hundred thousand, if that much. And he's telling me that Brits and USA did almost the same or more than Russia in the WW2.

Then he compares the Iraq fiasco with the Normandy and WW2 events, defeating Germany that tried to occupy the world. Here is Saddam that according to Bush/Chaney's dreams tried something...in last 10 years

Finally, none of the events that Ganeil mentioned did not wipe 200k INNOCENT lives in less than one minute. YES, the worst crime against humanity EVER!

Do you have ANY evidence (not he said she said interviews with some paid idiots) that Milosevic ordered any of things in Former YU. He's dead now, it does not matter...

And you really think that any evidence against Bush/Chaney would ever surface even if present. You think that evidence that Bush knew about the WMD and went into a sovereign country for personal gain would ever come out.

Again, I have read/seen and worked on the satellites that can read the street sign from over there, and you're telling me that it is acceptable to have a "bad intel" about a huge thing called the WMD, and destroy the country and justify it just because of the bad intel...

BS

If Bush hangs over this, I will accept the world justice, otherwise...BS
When did I say that the Brits or the US did more than the Soviets in WWII?

Your 200,000 instant deaths figure is quite exaggerated. The estimates of those killed by the bombings range between 150-220K within 4 months of the bombings. Not sure how that is a "Greater crime" than 6 million Jews exterminated or 2 million Cambodians. For immediate deaths, the fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden probably resulted in more than either atomic bombing.

I did not indict Milosevic, why then ask me for evidence? It was your favorite institution, the UN, that indicted him. Check with them for the evidence.

Let me know when you or anyone else has credible evidence that the President knew Saddam had no WMD. If so, he found it out on his own because every intel agency in the gov't, as well as allies, and the UN thought otherwise.

As for whether or not you accept world justice, who cares?
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      07-19-2007, 01:08 PM   #107
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I am well familiar with the role the Soviets played in defeating the Germans. Nothing I said diminishes that role.

Nor do I need a Wiki article to understand and appreciate the significance of Stalingrad (or Kursk for that matter) in the downfall of the German Reich.

If Britain had crumbled after the fall of France, could the Soviets have successfully defeated a Germany with mastery of the seas?

Could they have held at Stalingrad if the Germans had been able to commit the two Army Groups that were committed elsewhere?

Who knows but the answers are irrelevant because the defeat of Germany was done jointly by the Allies and no one's role should be diminished.
Clarification understood.
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      07-19-2007, 03:11 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
When did I say that the Brits or the US did more than the Soviets in WWII?

Your 200,000 instant deaths figure is quite exaggerated. The estimates of those killed by the bombings range between 150-220K within 4 months of the bombings. Not sure how that is a "Greater crime" than 6 million Jews exterminated or 2 million Cambodians. For immediate deaths, the fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden probably resulted in more than either atomic bombing.

I did not indict Milosevic, why then ask me for evidence? It was your favorite institution, the UN, that indicted him. Check with them for the evidence.

Let me know when you or anyone else has credible evidence that the President knew Saddam had no WMD. If so, he found it out on his own because every intel agency in the gov't, as well as allies, and the UN thought otherwise.

As for whether or not you accept world justice, who cares?
I told you what the satellites are capable of (I am sure you knew that), then use your brains and answer my question...

As for your last line, you're right, but pretty soon, that will be the line that 6B people will tell about 50M people (with opposed opinion) in the USA. That is what I'm concerned about -- the future of my kids that is completely screwed up in last 6 years.

I just hope that in two years, the rest of the world will be able to forgive us and say OK, the lunatic is out, lets start this over again...
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      07-19-2007, 03:51 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
The KKK didn't have their own "textbooks"??? Granted, not on the order of what you are showing in the Suadi countries. But that first picture was a bunch of hooded men and a small child. Gotta remember lots of those photos associated with KKK.
Still spouting aboutt he irrelevant KKK?.
Just hooded men and a small child?
Uhh, look again. That photo shows terrorists patting a boy on the head who has wrapped himself up in explosives. And the ones with hoods are ALSO wrapped in explosives. Good gosh, I'm glad YOU'RE not in charge of security.



If you are still confused about all this, please re-read posts no. 65, 87 and 97.
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      07-19-2007, 04:02 PM   #110
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I'm wondering where is HKS786 ... Peacefully gathering with other muslims in London?
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