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      05-20-2007, 12:44 PM   #1
enfield
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Islam - a Religion like other Religions

I am frankly a little tired of Islam being slammed. There are a lot of opinions being expressed on this Board that are simply incorrect. I am attaching a link for people to read. I want to make it clear that I, as a Muslim, only have respect for other faiths such as Buddhism, Christianiny, Judism, Hindusim, Jainism, Sikhism, Shinto etc. Even though I am Muslim - I feel that Buddhism makes the most sense to me at a personal level.

My family is Muslim as are a lot of my friends. I also have friends who are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist etc. None of my friends & family are violent. My feelings are hurt when others attack my friends and family without knowing them.

Can we be kind to each other. The Dalai Lama says "Be kind whenever possible.... it is always possible."

Here's the link: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/o.../comments.html
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      05-21-2007, 11:59 AM   #2
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I hope I have not personally offended you in any of my words here. I know little about many religions, so I try not to bash them.

Unfortunately I think it a big part of human nature to "learn" about other religions from what we hear on the street. And recently, the Muslim faith has been unjustly blamed for terrorism. I have been, frankly, a bit scared to pick up a copy of the Koran in a bookstore, for fear of being labeled as a sympathizer or something.

MAYBE my faith in humanity will help me risk the slings and arrows of sympathy/search for understanding.
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      05-21-2007, 12:21 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I hope I have not personally offended you in any of my words here. I know little about many religions, so I try not to bash them.

Unfortunately I think it a big part of human nature to "learn" about other religions from what we hear on the street. And recently, the Muslim faith has been unjustly blamed for terrorism. I have been, frankly, a bit scared to pick up a copy of the Koran in a bookstore, for fear of being labeled as a sympathizer or something.

MAYBE my faith in humanity will help me risk the slings and arrows of sympathy/search for understanding.
Hey man, thats awesome. Learning and increased understanding of anything is the right way!!
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      05-21-2007, 12:31 PM   #4
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For YEARS, I thought of Rastfarians as just a bunch of pot-heads. When I went to Jamaica a few years ago I discovered I was WAY wrong. I had some lady put beads in my goatee just for fun, and the way I did it seemed "right" for some reason. One night, after the entertainment was over, one guy introduced himself to me because of the unique way I wore the beads. He said it reminded him of Bob, and he proceeded to tell me he was a Rastafarian, and explained a bit to me. After about 1/2 an hour I turned to him and said "You don't seem to be any different than I other than your choice of getting to what you want form life: happiness, love, enough food to eat, and to raise a family, and eventually make it to heaven" He was shocked that a white boy got it that easily.

So, Enfield, tell me: Is there anything different that you want, at the basis of your faith? Or do we just differ in the minute details of how we were taught to reach those goals?
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      05-23-2007, 03:37 PM   #5
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I have been, frankly, a bit scared to pick up a copy of the Koran in a bookstore, for fear of being labeled as a sympathizer or something.
You could probably ask your local mosque for one, they'd likely give it to you for free. Some mosques have a small bookstore you could buy it from too, amongst other books. Or order it online: http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/
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      05-24-2007, 10:28 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I hope I have not personally offended you in any of my words here. I know little about many religions, so I try not to bash them.

Unfortunately I think it a big part of human nature to "learn" about other religions from what we hear on the street. And recently, the Muslim faith has been unjustly blamed for terrorism. I have been, frankly, a bit scared to pick up a copy of the Koran in a bookstore, for fear of being labeled as a sympathizer or something.

MAYBE my faith in humanity will help me risk the slings and arrows of sympathy/search for understanding.
Bro why dont you check out this website: http://www.geocities.com/thetruebook/index.htm

It has info and evidence which proves the Quran is full of modern science, history and miracles. If you have read all of that and you are further interested in the rest of the Quran which explains the Islamic Law too, then you can pick up a copy from somewhere or buy one from an Islamic book store or online or something
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      05-24-2007, 11:59 AM   #7
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Is there anything different that you want, at the basis of your faith? Or do we just differ in the minute details of how we were taught to reach those goals?
Almost every religion teaches that you must follow the strict tenets of that religion, or you're doing something wrong. Followers will stray, the religion will not pass on to one's children. If a religion does not do this, the religion will die out, and no longer exist. Intolerance is inherent to almost every religion.
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      05-26-2007, 11:54 AM   #8
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intolerance isn't specific only to religion.
try skipping your taxes next year.

you can skew the tenets of any religion to suit the needs of a particular argument.
sort of like what politicians do with statistics.
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      05-26-2007, 11:58 AM   #9
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intolerance isn't specific only to religion.
try skipping your taxes next year.

you can skew the tenets of any religion to suit the needs of a particular argument.
sort of like what politicians do with statistics.
Yeah totally agree with you there bro! but why dont you check out the stuff I've been posting about Islam in the threads below:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...t=28190&page=7
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...=60717&page=13
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      05-27-2007, 08:34 PM   #10
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werd.
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      05-31-2007, 11:21 AM   #11
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IEven though I am Muslim - I feel that Buddhism makes the most sense to me at a personal level.
Then quit being hypocritical and become a buddhist.
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      05-31-2007, 10:12 PM   #12
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there's your answer.
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      06-20-2007, 02:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by enfield View Post
I am frankly a little tired of Islam being slammed. There are a lot of opinions being expressed on this Board that are simply incorrect. I am attaching a link for people to read. I want to make it clear that I, as a Muslim, only have respect for other faiths such as Buddhism, Christianiny, Judism, Hindusim, Jainism, Sikhism, Shinto etc. Even though I am Muslim - I feel that Buddhism makes the most sense to me at a personal level.

My family is Muslim as are a lot of my friends. I also have friends who are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist etc. None of my friends & family are violent. My feelings are hurt when others attack my friends and family without knowing them.

Can we be kind to each other. The Dalai Lama says "Be kind whenever possible.... it is always possible."

Here's the link: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/o.../comments.html
I would be kind to you but I would argue with you. I would ask you why you believe that a cheap knockoff of Bibilical stories, written in much more recent history than the Bible (the koran) is anything more than plagiarized primitive tribalism at its worst. And as a friend, I would tease you about the women in your family putting rags over their faces like shameful chattle.

But we could still hang out.
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      06-21-2007, 11:15 AM   #14
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And as a friend, I would tease you about the women in your family putting rags over their faces like shameful chattle.

That's your opinion. In the eyes of muslims, the headscarf/veil are both worn to protect women and to respect them. In perfect Islamic conditions, society would work much better as there would be no things such as rape/sexual assaults. Men are not supposed to gaze at women and women should cover their beauty appropriately. There is nothing shameful about it, it's about modesty and purity. The same rules apply to both men and women. Both men and women are commanded to guard their chastity:

"Surely the men who submit and women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women, and the charitable men and the charitable women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their chastity and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah and women who remember - Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and mighty reward."

The Holy Quran (33:35)
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      06-21-2007, 11:53 AM   #15
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This only underlines that muslim men and women on the inside are promiscuous if they need to hide their bodies in order not to engage in extra-marrital affairs. It's like an alcohlic who does not drink, but starts binge drinking once he consumes just a timy amount of liquor. Excessive clothing is a poor substitute to self-discipline and civilized relationship between genders. If clothing is the only barrier to unlimited sex in the muslim society, I feel sorry for you guys.

The true standard for a civilized person is if he/she can look at a representative of another gender as a human and not a piece of flesh that needs to be covered to avoid a rape. it's all not about clothing, but about proper sexual education and mutual respect.
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      06-21-2007, 01:42 PM   #16
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Why do men not cover themselves? Is it a male-only desire to fornicate based on physical attraction? If not, then what's to keep the women from their impue thoughts about the strong male physique they see walking down the street?

Is it a sin, if I am tempted by the beauty, even to the point of fantasy about what may happen, but I give it no action? I think that is the BASIS of the gift of free will, that I can CHOOSE, despite the temptation, to resist and follow the will of God, and remain a valuable member of society.
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      06-21-2007, 02:12 PM   #17
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This only underlines that muslim men and women on the inside are promiscuous if they need to hide their bodies in order not to engage in extra-marrital affairs. It's like an alcohlic who does not drink, but starts binge drinking once he consumes just a timy amount of liquor. Excessive clothing is a poor substitute to self-discipline and civilized relationship between genders. If clothing is the only barrier to unlimited sex in the muslim society, I feel sorry for you guys.

The true standard for a civilized person is if he/she can look at a representative of another gender as a human and not a piece of flesh that needs to be covered to avoid a rape. it's all not about clothing, but about proper sexual education and mutual respect.
I have no clue how you arrived to this perspective. I find it sadly comical to read that because you seem to think it's one thing versus what you've probably heard Muslims saying it is (ie. you're not fully understanding why it's done to begin with and make it sound that it's all about sex). "Excessive" clothing is not a substitute for self-discipline. Many women in the Islamic world don't don the headscarf yet they're fully capable of acting in a respectable manner to both themselves and the people she encounters. OTOH it's a choice to wear it and it's considered to be an ordained decree, which is why the majority of Muslim women wear it. In simple terms, God said so, so I'll obey Him to please Him. It's not simply a method to cover the body up.

And no, clothing alone isn't the only barrier to sex and I would think that's apparent w/o the need to explain the whole concept of the head-covering. A person's beliefs and their adherence to them is the main barrier, which ultimately leads them to seek that companionship lawfully (according to religion) through marriage.

Anyway
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Why do men not cover themselves? Is it a male-only desire to fornicate based on physical attraction? If not, then what's to keep the women from their impue thoughts about the strong male physique they see walking down the street?

Is it a sin, if I am tempted by the beauty, even to the point of fantasy about what may happen, but I give it no action? I think that is the BASIS of the gift of free will, that I can CHOOSE, despite the temptation, to resist and follow the will of God, and remain a valuable member of society.
Men are required to cover from the navel to the knee. Any desire is available in both sexes, so no, but in males it's usually alot easier to get into that frame of mind. And you need not look further than society, tv ads, movies to see that this is true. Women face the same challenges (see below) and sure they may fantasize about it too when they see a guy but the woman's body, to a man, is attractive and that attraction encompasses her whole body, hence the emphasis on wearing non-revealing non-clinging clothes.

Now you are free to disagree with this view, but honestly ask yourself: do your eyes shift focus when you see someone with less clothes on (cleavage showing for example) than with someone more modestly dressed? And in turn, at that point when you get distracted by the person's body and keep checking them out, you're already engaged in impure thoughts versus how you'd most likely have no such thoughts, or a lesser intensity of those thoughts, with someone whose body is covered up in such a way that you can't check them out and are not distracted by how they look.

To us it is considered a sin (not punishable by society of course, it's your private thoughts anyway) to fantasize about it. It's considered adultery of the eye or the mind etc. However, not acting on it and repenting for the thoughts removes that sin and replaces it with a good deed instead. This is not just in Islam; I recall reading that Jesus once said something to the effect that the first look (that a man gives a woman) is acceptable, but the second look is adultery - and the interpretation of this is the same with Islam... first look is ok, then lower your gaze... the 2nd look, on purpose, is usually the person checking someone out and that leads to the impure thoughts etc.

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      06-21-2007, 02:27 PM   #18
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Ninja, my prospective is entirely based on explanations offered by HKS. So, don't distort it unnecessarily.

I'd prefer to get "distracted" by a woman's body rather than being hypocritically pretending that it's not there. Ugly bodies need to be covered, muslim or not, but the beautiful ones shall serve their inherent purpose of attracting admiration. if not, why didn't Allah create men and women as shapeless and identical pieces of flesh?

Religion = hypocrisy.

On the subject of rape: rapists don't seek to assault hot babes and rape is not about fulfilling sexual desire with bomb shells; it's about male's morbid violent impulses towards women, regardless of whether they are beautiful or ugly.
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      06-21-2007, 03:16 PM   #19
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The will of God is a whole nother thing. The way it has been protrayed to me (in my ignorance) was it was a requirement of civil law, not religious. Hence the beatings that occur for women who are human enough to resist what they deem to be opression, even devout members of the faith.

Are there similar beating for men who wear a Speedo at the beach? Or shorts?
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      06-21-2007, 07:38 PM   #20
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Ninja, my prospective is entirely based on explanations offered by HKS. So, don't distort it unnecessarily.

I'd prefer to get "distracted" by a woman's body rather than being hypocritically pretending that it's not there. Ugly bodies need to be covered, muslim or not, but the beautiful ones shall serve their inherent purpose of attracting admiration. if not, why didn't Allah create men and women as shapeless and identical pieces of flesh?

Religion = hypocrisy.

On the subject of rape: rapists don't seek to assault hot babes and rape is not about fulfilling sexual desire with bomb shells; it's about male's morbid violent impulses towards women, regardless of whether they are beautiful or ugly.
I'd have to disagree with "religion = hypocrisy" - perhaps a truer statement could be "religion has the potential to lead to hypocrisy" but hypocrisy can't possibly equate to religion since the very definition of the word means to be untrue to (or falsely display adherence to) a set of beliefs, so w/o the beliefs to adhere to as a given then hypocrisy can't apply. At least in my mind, such an equation can't exist but everyone's free to believe what they want.

I'm not sure what you meant by distorting your perception though cos what I said is not my own opinion but the actual teachings of the religion Maybe I missed another post but it's all good.

Also, beauty can exist in females. Just because they're all dressed up modestly doesn't mean their beauty is hidden does it? It just doesn't jump right out at you and scream for attention, whether their dress has that desired effect or not cos the beholder is the one who can pick out any little or large thing and see beauty in it. I have female co-workers that I have to interact with and most of them dress pretty modestly.
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The will of God is a whole nother thing. The way it has been protrayed to me (in my ignorance) was it was a requirement of civil law, not religious. Hence the beatings that occur for women who are human enough to resist what they deem to be opression, even devout members of the faith.

Are there similar beating for men who wear a Speedo at the beach? Or shorts?
Oh no no Ok I understand where you're coming from. Let me clarify: the laws practiced by governments do not necessarily reflect the way Islamic Shari'ah law would deal with the matters. The stonings you hear of in some countries because of adultery - that's totally wrong. The honor killings? Totally wrong. BTW on the subject of honor killings, this is not an Islamic / Arab phenomenon alone, in fact this has happened with people who are neither Arab or practice Islam however many times people read such stories which are in countries generally thought of as Islamic and assume it's always such a person (there are both cases I admit).

The beatings or killings are uncalled for and those people have no rights to carry such acts out. Civil law... sure some countries may enforce it, but no one has the right to touch a lady and force her to cover her hair or whatever. Likewise some men/women have been known to throw acid in the face of women who don't cover to deform their faces - again, totally bogus.

The prophet (pbuh) and his companions didn't go running around forcing people to cover up. Non-Muslims in their territories were free to hold on to their values and cultures and go on with their lives w/o any compulsion.

If beatings are sanctioned by any civil law then realize that they're not following Islamic methods. Period. BTW, another example: 4 witnesses are needed to have an adulterer/adulteress stoned. This requirement is the reason why there were VERY few cases of adultery punishments carried out in and after the prophet's time. It's meant to be a mercy (by "it" I mean the fact that you need 4 witnesses, not the act of stoning) because if someone does it they have the chance to repent. The point is it's very difficult to accuse someone of adultery and get 4 witnesses to back you up. So when you see stories of some countries stoning some lady they may accuse the person of doing it, or the lady got pregnant and was unmarried so it's obvious she did SOMETHING, but no witnesses = no stoning, yet it happens and that is incorrect. Those people will have alot to answer for in the end.

Regarding your speedo question: earlier I said that men must cover from the navel to the knees. Hence, when I go swimming I wear swimming trunks which are similar lengths as my shorts - they reach and cover my knees. That is acceptable. Now underwear-like speedos are unacceptable. Same reason as I had mentioned above for women: it's too revealing and clings to the body and that is not considered modest. Beatings? Not that I've heard of but I wouldn't be surprised to find people ganging up on someone dressed inappropriately or asking them to dress properly etc.
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      06-21-2007, 11:39 PM   #21
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I'd prefer to get "distracted" by a woman's body rather than being hypocritically pretending that it's not there. Ugly bodies need to be covered, muslim or not, but the beautiful ones shall serve their inherent purpose of attracting admiration. if not, why didn't Allah create men and women as shapeless and identical pieces of flesh?
And by getting distracted and looking - you are only fueling your sexual desire towards the women you look at. So if they were good for your taste and you had your way - you would have sex with them.. all of them. Do you think that sex outside of marriage is a good thing - for your health, for society? Becuase that is all that looking is leading you towards..

God made our bodies different and enjoyable so that husbands and wives could enjoy each other not so the world would become a giant porn movie.
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      06-22-2007, 05:20 AM   #22
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I'd prefer to get "distracted" by a woman's body rather than being hypocritically pretending that it's not there. Ugly bodies need to be covered, muslim or not, but the beautiful ones shall serve their inherent purpose of attracting admiration. if not, why didn't Allah create men and women as shapeless and identical pieces of flesh?

Firstly, who made you the world policeman of what is ugly and what is not? your way does not work, because what you might see as ugly, someone else may see as beautiful.

"inherent purpose of attracting admiration"? So if the creation can receive admiration for having the physical looks that they were born with and had no control over, then what admiration does the creator receive? Anyway, that sounds like such a meaningful life - admiring bodies. That would never benefit you.

On the subject of rape: rapists don't seek to assault hot babes and rape is not about fulfilling sexual desire with bomb shells; it's about male's morbid violent impulses towards women, regardless of whether they are beautiful or ugly.

Actually some rapists do seek certain people. Some plan their targets.
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