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      12-20-2011, 04:15 AM   #23
luis_m3
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If I may be honest, I would say you're a poor defensive driver... 1) you should not be passing on the right side of the road unless you absolutely have to, 2) slow down, there were too many pedestrians around, 3) again, slow down, too many bad drivers around.
Now, good reaction in avoiding the accident... it was totally his/her fault.
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      12-20-2011, 06:20 AM   #24
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Next M3 better come with a rocket launcher for people like this minivan driver.
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      12-20-2011, 08:10 AM   #25
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You guys arguing this angle are coming up way, way short here. Here's why.

That same driver, on that same road - on that same day even - may very well have wanted to turn left instead of turning right. You don't know what he was going to do. In fact, if anything, most of us would have guessed the guy in the lefthand lane is going to turn - wait for it! - LEFT.

But let's say you either guessed that he was indeed going to turn right (whether it be by signaling and switching lanes first - i.e. legally, or simply by pulling across the right lane with no signal in the utterly insane fashion that he did), or maybe you just didn't think about it either way. So, you just chugged along happily in the left lane. Great job, you great driver, you avoided that mishap.

Actually I lied. You failed. Why? Because, like I said above, you never really knew what the guy was going to do in the first place. And truth be told, the video above is faked. Yep. What this terminally-out-of-tune driver in the minivan *actually* did on this day was notice his destination on the left side of the street instead of the right side and slam on his brakes with no warning whatsoever. This caused the driver behind him to lock his brakes as well, and then you piled right into the back of that guy's car. Oh but maybe you switched lanes at the last second? Great. But guess what? There was a dude on a motorcycle in your blind spot there, and you just made his wife a widow. Nice job.

What's the point here? The point is, no amount of "smart driving" is going to save you from a total whackjob on the road. You guys that think so are simply wrong. You are playing first string armchair quarterback here, and throwing 50 yard touchdown passes straight to your ego. You are taking all kinds of arbitrary events and suggesting that they are the norm, a pattern - and that simply doing the same thing every time will save you from a mishap, accident, crash, or worse. The only way to avoid this type of thing every day is to say inside and languish on the couch. That's the truth.

You can't predict what a madman will do, and you can't save yourself from a madman by chossing what you perceive to be the safest or most conservative behavior. He will outplay you with his complete and utter disregard for what is right, and he will outgun you with his 55 calibre shots from the hip into the crowd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
Absolutely.
But that status isn't worth much after the fact.

Since this kind of thing happens as a routine matter it is up to the good drivers to anticipate and make effort to preclude the consequences.

Most accidents can be avoided if the driver not at fault is ready for and expects every other driver to cause a problem.

Being "right" in an accident is never a good situation. The only acceptable outcome is having done everything possible to ensure the situation can't happen.
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Last edited by mkoesel; 12-20-2011 at 08:15 AM.
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      12-20-2011, 08:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The point is, no amount of "smart driving" is going to save you from a total whackjob on the road. You guys that think so are simply wrong.
You can't predict what a madman will do, and you can't save yourself from a madman by doing what you perceive to be the safest or mosts conservative behavior.
I'm not jamming you up, but I completely disagree.
A good driver can - and should and DOES - save himself and others. Maybe not 100% of the time, but definitely most of the time.

Here it was the OP's reaction that saved everyone. Setting aside the overall merits of his driving that got him into the situation, he did avoid an accident by a last-second reaction. Many people would not have done even this.

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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You are playing first string armchair quarterback here
Yeah and so what? That's the whole point in observing and learning and posting in these forums.
And it ain't for my ego, any more than your responses are for yours (and I'm not suggesting they are).

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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
You are taking all kinds of arbitrary events and suggesting that they are the norm, a pattern
They ARE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
simply doing the same thing every time will save you from a mishap, accident, crash, or worse.
You mean ... like practicing anything? Including drills at the track, in a parking lot, at Greer (PDC), etc.? Over and over until you know instinctively what you should be doing and how to act properly without having to lose critical time by thinking? Yes. That WILL save incidents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The only way to avoid this type of thing every day is to say inside and languish on the couch.
Oh, come on ...

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      12-20-2011, 09:01 AM   #27
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Agree to disagree hlmiii.

I want to thank the OP for posting the video he took, and subjecting himself to all the critcism. Certainly he was not perfect in his actions, but he deserves props for catching a crime (yes, illegal = criminal) on tape.
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      12-20-2011, 09:09 AM   #28
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Sounds good.
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      12-20-2011, 09:22 AM   #29
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All the arguing aside, this is why police cars have cameras. Capture the event and let the judge decide who is right and wrong. I predict that car manufacturers will be building video systems into cars in the not too distant future anyway, in order to improve safety, limit liability or so that idiot drivers across the world can post their vehicular exploits on the Internet. For the record, I'm not calling OP an idiot.
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      12-20-2011, 11:15 AM   #30
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seriously-what is undercutting???
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      12-20-2011, 11:30 AM   #31
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You guys are wrong. I would never drive in the left lane due to everyone using it to wait for turns.

OP was not "undercutting" or doing anything illegal (besides maybe filming while driving).

On a two lane road, you should not be turning right from the left lane without signaling. The minivan driver will eventually get into an accident so everything balances out...

OP did nothing illegal. The lane OP was in was not a turning lane (there are no arrows printed on the road and there is no sign on the side of the street). In New York many of our roads are like this and it is normal to use the lane for what it is meant for. Driving.

Maybe this is illegal in rural areas or roads with no lines... Not in urban areas.

Last edited by Jblack4083; 12-20-2011 at 11:49 AM.
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      12-20-2011, 11:36 AM   #32
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In this context passing another vehicle using a lane that is not correct (or legal).

On passenger streets/highways this would be "passing someone on the right" - overtaking and passing another vehicle is supposed to be done with a lane to the left of the vehicle.

On a race track this would be "passing under someone" - overtaking and passing a vehicle on the inside of a curve.
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      12-20-2011, 12:16 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
You guys are wrong.
OP was not "undercutting" or doing anything illegal (besides maybe filming while driving).
Maybe this is illegal in rural areas or roads with no lines... Not in urban areas.
Hey - what happened to "false?"

1 - my "illegal" was in parenthesis. A possibility.
2 - passing on the left is illegal in some states. Had an accident occurred it might have been possible at that point for the OP to be along side or even slightly in front of the other vehicle. At that point there is the possibility that the OP could have been cited as contributing to the incident.

New York State Law would obviously be the key. I don't know what their statutes say in this regard. (FWIW I don't think rural vs. urban would be determinative - never heard of that in this arena.)

The concept of contributory negligence is one that the insurance companies would have definitely run with, regardless of the criminal statute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
OP did nothing illegal. The lane OP was in was not a turning lane (there are no arrows printed on the road and there is no sign on the side of the street). In New York many of our roads are like this and it is normal to use the lane for what it is meant for. Driving.
I'm not suggesting "illegal" in the OP's situation. Just outlining why undercutting is considered bad form. That having been said ... it's a safe bet that if the van did not turn in either direction, the OP would have passed the van on the right - just as he did with the vehicle immediately before that.

And that was undercutting. And it might be illegal.

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      12-21-2011, 11:20 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robb7979 View Post
Actually passing on the right of a car IS illegal in a lot of states. The exception is if it is a divided 2 way, or a multilane one way. (I know it is in TX; Defensive driving!)
Actually, in TX it is not illegal in the situation seen here.

From the DPS handbook:

In Texas and many other states, you may pass on the right only when conditions permit you to do so safely, such as:

1. The road is clear of parked vehicles or other things and is wide enough
for two or more lanes in each direction.

2. You are on a one-way road.
3. You may pass on a paved shoulder when the vehicle you are passing is
slowing or stopped on the main travelled portion of the highway, disabled, or
preparing to make a left turn.
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      12-21-2011, 12:20 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amglol View Post
Actually, in TX it is not illegal in the situation seen here.

From the DPS handbook:

In Texas and many other states, you may pass on the right only when conditions permit you to do so safely, such as:

1. The road is clear of parked vehicles or other things and is wide enough
for two or more lanes in each direction.

2. You are on a one-way road.
3. You may pass on a paved shoulder when the vehicle you are passing is
slowing or stopped on the main travelled portion of the highway, disabled, or
preparing to make a left turn.
Actually that is incorrect, but my recollection of the law was too.

From the Texas Transportation Code:

545.057. PASSING TO THE RIGHT. (a) An operator may pass
to the right of another vehicle only if conditions permit safely
passing to the right And:
(1) the vehicle being passed is making or about to make
a left turn; and
(2) the operator is:
(A) on a highway having unobstructed pavement not
occupied by parked vehicles and sufficient width for two or more
lines of moving vehicles in each direction; or
(B) on a one-way street or on a roadway having
traffic restricted to one direction of movement and the roadway is
free from obstructions and wide enough for two or more lines of
moving vehicles.

According to this passing a car on the right is only legal if the car is making or about to make a left turn. In Texas, at least.
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      12-21-2011, 12:23 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblack4083 View Post
You guys are wrong. I would never drive in the left lane due to everyone using it to wait for turns.

OP was not "undercutting" or doing anything illegal (besides maybe filming while driving).

On a two lane road, you should not be turning right from the left lane without signaling. The minivan driver will eventually get into an accident so everything balances out...

OP did nothing illegal. The lane OP was in was not a turning lane (there are no arrows printed on the road and there is no sign on the side of the street). In New York many of our roads are like this and it is normal to use the lane for what it is meant for. Driving.

Maybe this is illegal in rural areas or roads with no lines... Not in urban areas.



City driving vs. Highway is VERY different.
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      12-21-2011, 12:29 PM   #37
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I hate to pass on the right, but almost always have no choice... this is not an M3 thing... i've been having to do that since my 81 VW rabbit....

+1 "most people have zero concept of "a passing lane"

ps .... i dig the monkey...
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      12-21-2011, 12:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robb7979 View Post
Actually that is incorrect, but my recollection of the law was too.

From the Texas Transportation Code:

545.057. PASSING TO THE RIGHT. (a) An operator may pass
to the right of another vehicle only if conditions permit safely
passing to the right And:
(1) the vehicle being passed is making or about to make
a left turn; and
(2) the operator is:
(A) on a highway having unobstructed pavement not
occupied by parked vehicles and sufficient width for two or more
lines of moving vehicles in each direction; or
(B) on a one-way street or on a roadway having
traffic restricted to one direction of movement and the roadway is
free from obstructions and wide enough for two or more lines of
moving vehicles.

According to this passing a car on the right is only legal if the car is making or about to make a left turn. In Texas, at least.
TX DPS should probably update the driving laws handbook they have on their website then...
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      12-21-2011, 12:47 PM   #39
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On a city street, passing from the right is OK. Constantly changing lanes/weaving/hard accelarition is not OK. You might be traveling in the middle/right lane and passing people. Divider lanes are not available in certain areas, so if you're in the left lane, you'll be waiting the car in front of you to turn, who is waiting for the coming traffic..

In general, I HATE driving in downtown. Luckily, I don't have to do it very often.
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      12-21-2011, 12:57 PM   #40
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And note that the predicate to all of this is
Quote:
An operator may pass to the right of another vehicle only if conditions permit safely passing to the right (emphasis added)
The requirement of "safe conditions" is a call by law enforcement. It allows for a citation, even in circumstances where the other subsequent technical issues are satisfied.
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      12-21-2011, 01:04 PM   #41
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[quote=Nine;11004758]People who are not familiar with big city driving will probably look at the OP. But in general, taking the left lane in the city often leads to being in the turning lane, and usually the slowest lane because not all left turning lanes get their own signal and not to mention the density of the on coming traffic.

In downtown areas of NY, all bets are off. You got to drive like it's WAR.[/QUOTE]

& you have PTSD
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      12-21-2011, 01:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gallian93 View Post
I hate to pass on the right, but almost always have no choice... this is not an M3 thing... i've been having to do that since my 81 VW rabbit....

+1 "most people have zero concept of "a passing lane"
+1 The police have made driving on the left with no intention of passing or turning de-facto legal, therefore the only possible outcome is that passing on the right becomes de-facto legal. Around here (Chicago suburbs, semi-urban), it is not uncommon for people to drive for miles in the left lane with no other cars around them. Probably 75% of the time, when I see cars turning onto the road I'm on, they will turn IMMEDIATELY into the left lane and stay there, even with no other traffic in the right lane. It's almost comical -- it seems many drivers are actually preferring to drive in the left lane, and basically, the left lane is the normal lane, and the right lane is clear for passing. Some days, I feel like I must be living in England.
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      12-21-2011, 01:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie View Post
& you have PTSD

Yeah pretty much, potholes are land mines, pedestrians are civilians, and cab drivers are the enemy.
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      12-21-2011, 03:01 PM   #44
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It's one thing to never expressly switch to the right lane in order to pass a driver to your left - its another thing entirely to never use the right lane at all, or to use the right lane but to never pass someone on the right via happenstance.

Who here will try and claim that they actually slow or stop in the right lane in order to keep from passing someone who is slowing or stopping in the left lane without their signal on? You wanna get some good footage on video, just try that and watch as the drivers in the cars behind you react in anger. Heck you may even cause a nice little pile up in your effort to keep from "illegally" passing that guy on your left.
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