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      05-16-2007, 05:18 PM   #1
shocka1212
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new m3 engine

do you guys think that bmw slacked off a bit by putting less torque in the new m3 than they did in the 335i?
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      05-16-2007, 06:17 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocka1212 View Post
do you guys think that bmw slacked off a bit by putting less torque in the new m3 than they did in the 335i?

Totally different approaches to making power. Forced induction vs. n/a. The 335 is basically an everyday sport sedan -meant to have great low-mid power for effortless passing and fun, whereas the M3 is basically as close to a race car that a sedan can get; in street form that is.
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      05-16-2007, 06:28 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocka1212 View Post
do you guys think that bmw slacked off a bit by putting less torque in the new m3 than they did in the 335i?
this subject has already been talked about....
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      05-17-2007, 06:07 PM   #4
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I think you have to look at the entire package and we will not be able to tell till we see the first road test and the Nurburgring lap time.
From some insider information, the vehicle was built around the engine- so let us wait and see.
I would speculate that the test numbers will look better than the individual numbers.
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      05-17-2007, 07:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyFavourite View Post
should have put twin turbos on the v8
Those are my plans later on but I would love to keep the 8400RPM redline.

who knows I might make it all N/A..... NAHHHHH! FI all the way hehehehe:rocks:
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      05-17-2007, 09:45 PM   #6
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what I don't understand is why they didn't make it direct injection... unless they are saving that for the CSL?
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      05-18-2007, 06:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shocka1212 View Post
do you guys think that bmw slacked off a bit by putting less torque in the new m3 than they did in the 335i?
Please study both of them again, look at the powerband the new //M has over the 335!

One is a "track/Race" car, the other isn't.
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      05-18-2007, 10:48 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphone3 View Post
what I don't understand is why they didn't make it direct injection... unless they are saving that for the CSL?
Guess they are deliberately trying to save it for something better later, like the next M5 otherwise the current M5 will be in trouble...
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      05-20-2007, 05:33 PM   #9
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I have a feeling the production V8 for BMW will be a 4.0 TT good for 400hp!
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      05-20-2007, 05:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E36325is View Post
Guess they are deliberately trying to save it for something better later, like the next M5 otherwise the current M5 will be in trouble...
the current M5 IS already direct injection. THAT is why it's strange they didn't make the M3 that way.
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      05-20-2007, 05:57 PM   #11
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Incorrect

Quote:
Originally Posted by imolazhp_ci View Post
the current M5 IS already direct injection. THAT is why it's strange they didn't make the M3 that way.
Wrong - look at the high resolution pictures of the M5 cylinder heads. It has traditional fuel injection.
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      05-20-2007, 07:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Wrong - look at the high resolution pictures of the M5 cylinder heads. It has traditional fuel injection.
Correct. Swamp have you heard why they didn't go with direct injection in the 4 liter V8? I know you were hoping for it as was myself. It's not like they haven't had a positive outcome with it in the N54 power plant. If they would have incorporated it into the 4 liter they would have likely found atleast another 20 horse power and similiar increase in torque along with improved mileage. Seems like a no brainer. Audi uses it in the RS4, though their DI is the first generation. I would guess that is why the Audi engine has higher torque figures than BMW. I guess BMW didn't want to spend the money to stray too far from the V10. I heard Porsche is looking at incorporating DI into their engine line up as well.
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      05-21-2007, 01:28 AM   #13
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Not sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Correct. Swamp have you heard why they didn't go with direct injection in the 4 liter V8? I know you were hoping for it as was myself. It's not like they haven't had a positive outcome with it in the N54 power plant. If they would have incorporated it into the 4 liter they would have likely found atleast another 20 horse power and similiar increase in torque along with improved mileage. Seems like a no brainer. Audi uses it in the RS4, though their DI is the first generation. I would guess that is why the Audi engine has higher torque figures than BMW. I guess BMW didn't want to spend the money to stray too far from the V10. I heard Porsche is looking at incorporating DI into their engine line up as well.
Indeed this power plant should have had it. Again this is why I claim the RS4 engine and E60 M5 engine were both much more revolutionary as opposed to the M3 which is very evolutionary in contrast. I think member Southlight suggested that for some reason the BMW 1st generation DI (the one from the 335i) is not suitable for the E92 M3. Perhaps due to the high redline (not sure if he said that or I just inferred it)? Again RS4 redlines at 8250 - so where does this leave BMW technology compared to Audi (when was the RS4 engine developed, 2004-2005?)? DI would have given us improvements in all of the following, hp, torque, both of those on a per liter basis and mpg. What a no brainer, esp. given then whole "efficient dynamics" BS from BMW. Note: RS4 not only has more torque but more torque per liter than the E92 M3!

Well I'm not sure DI would have given us 20 hp but it would have given it a kick for sure. I suspect the ultimate reasons the DI is absent are quite simple, 1) enough power without it, 2) much more power would be too close to the M5, 3) COST.
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      05-21-2007, 03:16 AM   #14
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I don't think BMW would be too concerned with the M3 coming close to the M5 in hp. They are fundementally different cars targeted at different customers.

Assuming the M5 V-10 does not have DI (I am defaulting to the other opinions on this one as I don't know): I wonder if DI introduces new variables into the combustion equation, and if that requires the chamber (geometry) to be redesigned. If that is the case, they might not have wanted to redo the whole thing due to cost and time issues. My understanding is that they simply wanted to delete 2 cylinders from the V-10 without going through too much trouble.
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      05-21-2007, 06:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Indeed this power plant should have had it. Again this is why I claim the RS4 engine and E60 M5 engine were both much more revolutionary as opposed to the M3 which is very evolutionary in contrast. I think member Southlight suggested that for some reason the BMW 1st generation DI (the one from the 335i) is not suitable for the E92 M3. Perhaps due to the high redline (not sure if he said that or I just inferred it)? Again RS4 redlines at 8250 - so where does this leave BMW technology compared to Audi (when was the RS4 engine developed, 2004-2005?)? DI would have given us improvements in all of the following, hp, torque, both of those on a per liter basis and mpg. What a no brainer, esp. given then whole "efficient dynamics" BS from BMW. Note: RS4 not only has more torque but more torque per liter than the E92 M3!

Well I'm not sure DI would have given us 20 hp but it would have given it a kick for sure. I suspect the ultimate reasons the DI is absent are quite simple, 1) enough power without it, 2) much more power would be too close to the M5, 3) COST.
First generation DI is the one that's featured on the 760 engine. That's about the same level of development that also features the RS4 engine. BMW does not use that technology in any other car than the 760. Today's DI is second generation DI which BMW calls HPI. This kind of DI has several advantages (can't explain further - maybe some technician?). The result is that only the second generation DI's really improves the gas mileage under real conditions. IMHO only manufacturers offering that technology at the moment are BMW with the HPI and Mercedes with the CLS 350 CGI (not exactly the same technology but same "level"). At the moment BMW is having some issues with the HPI injection pumps (335i,330i,325i in europe). So HPI isn't ripe for a high reving M engine yet. It would have been possible for BMW to feature a RS4-like DI but that has meant a step back.
Maybe I'm all wrong and they just didn't want to spend to money and time to adapt the DI, but I highly doubt that...

Best regards, south

EDIT: Yes, I suggested that 7000rpm is the limit for HPI at the moment.

Last edited by southlight; 05-21-2007 at 06:58 AM.
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      05-21-2007, 06:38 AM   #16
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purely speculation on my part. but it would come as no suprise to me if the direct injection technology is something bmw has chosen to stave off until the release of the CSL. in the tradition of the CSL moniker, bmw will have to cut weight, improve handling, and increase engine output (both torque and hp). it's quite possible that bmw realizes that if they included the piezo injectors on the e92 M3, they wouldn't be able to post the kind of HP gains for the CSL that they would like to.

swamp and southlight.. thoughts?
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      05-21-2007, 07:06 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
purely speculation on my part. but it would come as no suprise to me if the direct injection technology is something bmw has chosen to stave off until the release of the CSL. in the tradition of the CSL moniker, bmw will have to cut weight, improve handling, and increase engine output (both torque and hp). it's quite possible that bmw realizes that if they included the piezo injectors on the e92 M3, they wouldn't be able to post the kind of HP gains for the CSL that they would like to.

swamp and southlight.. thoughts?
Don't know. That would indeed be possible but they also could do other things like higher redline or more displacement. S65 and S85 are both new engines which should be used for quite a long time (most probably S85 also for the M5 successor as well as S65 for M3 successor). So many changes will happen in the future for both engines, we just don't know what will when be changed/improved. But if I was BMW I would start with V10 to feature HPI. This engine has real bad consumption whereas the M3 engine is said to be fairly moderate in consumption.

Best regards, south
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      05-21-2007, 07:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southlight View Post
First generation DI is the one that's featured on the 760 engine. That's about the same level of development that also features the RS4 engine. BMW does not use that technology in any other car than the 760. Today's DI is second generation DI which BMW calls HPI. This kind of DI has several advantages (can't explain further - maybe some technician?). The result is that only the second generation DI's really improves the gas mileage under real conditions.
Wikipedia has a decent article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Precision_Injection

Basically the N73 (760i V12) and other current "first generation" direct injected engines in the US don't do the ultra lean combustion mode (lean burn). As far as I know the main problem has been that our fuel is not clean enough to allow engines that run in this mode to pass emissions. However, new fuel regulations went into place recently that should help alleviate that. It will still take time for products to arrive however.

HPI is a good bet for next generation M engines because it will help them keep up with the non-M engines which will, in all liklihood, continue to use turbocharging. The next generation 5 and 7 series (F10 and F01) are widely rumored to feature a 4.4L twin-turbocharged V8 with well over 400hp and 400lb-ft of torque. This will put the S85 in a similar situation to todays' S65 vs the N54. I.e. much higher power output but disadvantaged in peak torque and low end torque. Direct injection could be a useful tool in increasting specific torque output of the naturally aspirated motors.
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      05-21-2007, 10:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90330iS View Post
I have a feeling the production V8 for BMW will be a 4.0 TT good for 400hp!
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      05-21-2007, 10:57 AM   #20
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On paper the torque seems low relative to the HP, but in practice they have enough torque. It works together well, at least in the E46. There is some weakness at times, no doubt, but you have to learn to drive through and around those weak spots. Basically you have to drive more aggressively. But in normal everyday driving, passing people on the freeway, getting ahead of the pack, the cars are excellent. Torque is no problem.
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      05-21-2007, 01:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caravello View Post
Torque is no problem.
In practice its not - agreed. I am merely saying that, from a marketing point of view, at some point you can no longer make a case that people should pony up $20,000 more for a car only to have to give up peak torque. It really does not matter if it is significant in real world driving or not - the marketplace will decide what matters with their pocketbook. If the marketplace did not matter, we would not have needed the V8; the I6 works plenty good enough.
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      05-21-2007, 04:59 PM   #22
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According to EVO, the M3 engine is more of a technological marvel compared to the RS4 engine: where the RS4 relies on FSI direct injection to achieve peek HP at 7800 RPM, the smaller M3 engine will reach its peak at 8300 RPM. The shorter stroke (72.5mm) relative to its bore of 92.0mm is what gives the M3 engine its character and the 295lb ft torque is available from 3900 RPM. Though the Audi has more torque, 85% of the M3 peak output torque is sustained over the first 6300 RPM band. Pretty impressive in my book.
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