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      04-27-2013, 04:01 AM   #1167
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Not sure if your are serious. From NA (Motorsport) to Turbo to Diesel? You want a Hybrid Diesel Sportscar? And drive a 1M?
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      04-27-2013, 10:15 AM   #1168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Not sure if your are serious. From NA (Motorsport) to Turbo to Diesel? You want a Hybrid Diesel Sportscar? And drive a 1M?
I'm glad you have rised this question.

First of all, I'm talking about a turbo diesel engine, obviously. Secondly, I already showed you that the Volkswagen Bluesport with its 180 hp turbo diesel engine is faster, in a meaningful way, than the Toyobaru with its 200 hp from the NA petrol engine. Thirdly, you can easily go from the actual 150 hp figure of the Subaru boxer diesel engine to 180 hp in order to match the Volkswagen Bluesport engine's max. power, since the max. torque is already the same in both engines (coincidentally, the same 258 lb-ft max. torque present in the Alfa Romeo 4c's turbocharged petrol engine).

Now, what is not being told to you is that NOTHING can beat a modern turbocharged diesel engine in terms of performance/fuel economy and emissions ratio when you drive hard, full throttle or whatever, and I mean by a LARGE margin. Forget about hybrids or electric cars... it was already shown in previous posts that the latter do nothing for the carbon footprint if you can't derive electric energy from a 0% CO2 emissions energy source, i.e. nuclear energy (to comply with the actual and future electric energy demand there's no other way available to man for doing it!).

And, that's where the problem begins... although we can see them already in motorsports and winning, THERE IS NO DRIVER'S CAR ON THE MARKET TODAY OFFERING A DIESEL ENGINE OPTION. This would be a great chance for the Toyobaru to be the pioneer since Volkswagen, unexplainable, didn't give green light to the Bluesport.

It's precisely because I own and daily drive a 1M, with now 41000 km on the clock of hard driving, that I'm perfectly aware of what is getting an average fuel consumption of 18-19 l/100 km and paying in average 1.6 € per 1 liter of gasoline. Just do the math and see how much money I have been throwing out of the window till now and every time I startup the 1M's turbocharged petrol engine.

So, the best answer to this is low weight and high low end torque from a turbocharged diesel engine... and if this is not possible then the next best answer is even lower weight and high low end torque from downsized direct petrol injection turbocharged engine, e.g. Alfa Romeo 4c.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 04-27-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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      04-27-2013, 01:17 PM   #1169
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And you already forgot about throttle response and engine sound of H/R NA engines.
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      04-27-2013, 01:48 PM   #1170
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To better understand why hybrid technology is also not the answer we have to realize that low weight AND batteries or high energy storage capacitors are NOT yet compatible for meaningful fuel saving with hard driving, which is what a driver's car is made for - accelerate hard, frequently going through the gears, going WOT, etc...
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      04-27-2013, 02:38 PM   #1171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
And you already forgot about throttle response and engine sound of H/R NA engines.
That is not so much an issue with modern turbocharged engines diesel or otherwise, let alone when compared to the HUGES advantages you get in trade. Actually, even the Toyobaru's NA engine uses a sound resonator directed to the cabin to intensify the engine sound. See how beautifully the Alfa Romeo 4c exhaust sound is for a turbocharged inline 4 petrol engine and also how good a Inox exhaust on a Subaru Legacy Boxer diesel can sound...


Last edited by GoingTooFast; 04-27-2013 at 02:43 PM.
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      04-27-2013, 02:54 PM   #1172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
That is not so much an issue with modern turbocharged engines diesel or otherwise, let alone when compared to the HUGES advantages you get in trade. Actually, even the Toyobaru's NA engine uses a sound resonator directed to the cabin to intensify the engine sound. See how beautifully the Alfa Romeo 4c exhaust sound is for a turbocharged inline 4 petrol engine and also how good a Inox exhaust on a Subaru Legacy Boxer diesel can sound...
These are two different things. Exhaust sound and Induction sound. You can make a turbocharged engine sound loud thanks to exhaust, but what I as a driver want to here is the induction sound, the real engine sound. That is what plays the biggest role in sound feeling for the driver. A too loud exhaust that overshadows the induction sound is bad IMO.
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      04-27-2013, 03:45 PM   #1173
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These are two different things. Exhaust sound and Induction sound. You can make a turbocharged engine sound loud thanks to exhaust, but what I as a driver want to here is the induction sound, the real engine sound. That is what plays the biggest role in sound feeling for the driver. A too loud exhaust that overshadows the induction sound is bad IMO.
What I can tell you as a personal experience coming from a previously owned NA inline-6 cyl. and a boxer 6 cyl. engine in a Z4 3.0si Coupe and a Cayman, respectively, is that I would ALWAYS trade the induction sound of any of those engines for the stock exhaust sound of my turbocharged 1M... is that better, honestly!

Also, when I'm talking about the huge amounts of money I spend in gasoline, trust me, the 'induction noise' is the least of my concerns...

Finally, the exhaust sound is not only about being loud... it's also about its 'character'.
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      04-28-2013, 06:41 PM   #1174
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To better understand the diesel advantage look at the only diesel offering by BMW in the US at the moment (a 328d diesel version with 184 hp will be offered) and just compare it to its petrol counterpart. Despite the huge weight disadvantage of the diesel version (although with a better weight distribution), the lower power output and the 6-speed only transmission when compared to the 8-speed automatic transmission of the petrol version the performance of both versions is remarkably close! What set them definitely apart is the mileage you can get with each of them. And, if you take both versions for a test drive on the same route and drive them hard like a 'true sports car' I can assure you that with the diesel version you will get the DOUBLE of the mileage you will get from its petrol counterpart. GUARANTEED!!!

.................................................. ............ X5 xDrive35i........................ X5 xDrive35d (diesel)
Weight distribution, front/rear................. 47.3/52.7 %......................... 49.0/51.0 %
Weight Unladen........................................ 4960 lbs............................... 5192 lbs
Nominal output hp/rpm........................... 300/5800-6250................... 265/4200
Max. torque lb-ft/rpm.............................. 300/1300-5000................... 425/1750-2250
Top speed (limited electronically)........... 130 mph.............................. 130 mph
Acceleration 0-60 mph............................. 6.4 sec................................. 6.9 sec
Fuel Consumption City/Highway............. 16/23 mpg........................... 19/26 mpg
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      04-29-2013, 03:01 PM   #1175
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People normally don't realize that crashing into a wall that doesn't deform itself even at 40 mph is an hell of BANG!!!

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      04-29-2013, 04:43 PM   #1176
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WTF is the point of this thread?

54 pages of pointless drivel and mindless self-hijacking. Whoever paid you to spam the crap out of our board should be fired. Out of a cannon. Into the sun.
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      04-29-2013, 05:44 PM   #1177
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I don't get it then. If they want a technology showcase and not something that is performance oriented, why package it as a carbon fiber, super light car with supercar-esque looks, and then take it to the Nurburgring???

If I had $125k to blow, I'd buy a 2013 Viper GTS and call it a day. Plenty of technology there. "Green" minded folk need to be educated and look into how manufacturing and disposing all those batteries affect the environment.
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      04-30-2013, 04:33 AM   #1178
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As I've said, NOTHING can beat a diesel engine in performance per mileage AND the important point is... you do NOT need to loose in performance.

To prove you that hybrid technology is only good for fuel saving on slow town traffic and cruising and not for a properly driven driver's car, here are the results of not too much hard driving (min 4:00):

Quote:
The Prius did 17.2 mpg, the M3 did 19.4 mpg...



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      04-30-2013, 03:31 PM   #1179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretsquirrel
This car is like a modern day S2000 specs wise. It should be a great car.

I like it. I looks great and should have a starting price around 27k.
The current BRZ stickers for around that price. I can imagine this hitting up to 40!
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      05-01-2013, 06:35 PM   #1180
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If Toyota is preparing to give us a hot hybrid version of the Toyobaru with the assumption that it will be more fuel-efficient that way, let me reaffirm that if fuel-efficiency is a real concern and not merely a marketing operation to promote Toyota's hybrid technology which will necessarily sacrifice lightweight in order to accommodate the heavy batteries or the also heavy high energy storge capacitors then if it's all about fuel-efficieny with increased performance NOTHING could be better than a uprated version of the Subaru boxer diesel engine similarly to what Toyota have done to the Subaru boxer petrol engine in the current Toyobaru. Moreover, since both the petrol and the diesel version have the same exact bore x stroke dimensions, 86 mm x 86 mm, the number that gave the name to the Toyota GT86 and the number which corresponds to the exact diameter of the Toyobaru's tail pipes can be maintained!

Just look at the fuel consumption shown on the Toyobaru's computer after a reset when going WOT all the way through the gears to top speed in a downhill (yet a favorable condition) :

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      05-02-2013, 04:32 PM   #1181
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The Toyobaru could be the FIRST truly driver's car in the world for street use with a diesel engine and for the planned price of the Volkswagen Bluesport it would be an even greater success than it already is:


Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-02-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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      05-02-2013, 05:40 PM   #1182
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You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel for material to keep this thread alive.
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      05-02-2013, 06:54 PM   #1183
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No, not really... the Volkswagen Bluesport is the most underrated driver's car concept of all times because of marketing reasons and since I've known that Toyota is trying hard to produce an hotter hybrid version of the Toyobaru I can't go without expressing my disapproval and disappointment about such option. The car industry is trying to sell us the false idea that the electric car is the way to go in the near future because of the CO2 emissions. Nothing could be more far from reality until you have a 'CO2 clean' energy source worldwide from which you can derive the necessary electric energy to supply the present world demand, let alone the even higher demand in such scenario! Just look at China and their rapid nuclear energy expansion and yet it will only represent roughly 5% of their electricity needs in 2020. It will take some decades until the electric car can make sense as a 'green' option. And, I'm not talking yet about all the CO2 emissions involved on the electric batteries manufacturing. This is rubbish!!!

An hybrid driver's car is also rubbish... you are only adding weight when you should be reducing it as much as you could - but that is more expensive to perform and that's the real issue - because when you push hard like you suppose to do in a true driver's car the batteries or the capacitors, whatever, can only give you that much of extra power much like the overboost function on the my 1M, it will last what?! 7 seconds... and then nothing until you brake hard again consecutively, so you will be burning a lot of fuel again unless you have a diesel engine.

When you drive hard nothing can beat a good diesel engine in fuel-efficiency and performance... nothing!!!!
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      05-02-2013, 09:56 PM   #1184
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Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel for material to keep this thread alive.
LOL

This guy has way too much time on his hands.
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      05-03-2013, 09:09 AM   #1185
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So, we are back to lightweight and to what makes sense for a driver's car... Renault and Maserati would be more than happy to follow the leader... the BEAUTIFUL Alfa 4c:





Quote:

Alfa 4C key to Alpine sports car success

Renault is looking to Alfa Romeo's forthcoming 4C to help boost prospects for its forthcoming two-seat Alpine coupé, due to hit the market in 2016 at around £50,000.

Renault boss Carlos Tavares says the Dieppe-manufactured Alpine and the Alfa (plus the car being designed on the same chassis by its 50/50 partner Caterham) will together create a new, big-name, sub-supercar class of driver's cars intended to appeal both to well heeled traditionalists and younger driving enthusiasts.

Styling is "about 70 per cent done", Tavares says. The shape will combine cues from the much-loved A110 (four round headlights, arrowhead nose, low roofline, side scoops, wide rear deck) with proportions and elements that emphasise its modernity. Striking the right balance is one of the major challenges, he says.

Tavares is tight-lipped about the mechanical details of the car, but just before the new Alpine endurance race car took to the track for the first time at Silverstone, he told Autocar that it would be a two-seat coupé weighing about 1000kg, costing around £50,000 and with about 280bhp on tap. Volume would be "a few thousand" per year.

The chassis is understood to be a spaceframe mainly of steel, but with weight-saving aluminium and composite components. French reports say the Alpine coupé has all-independent suspension and locates the engine – a four-cylinder turbo petrol unit likely to be of 2.0-litre capacity – transversely behind the occupants. Engineers are still deciding whether it will use the six-speed dual-clutch automatic gearbox recently adopted for the Renault Clio Renaultsport, or a conventional stick shift. Caterham's car will use the same chassis and running gear as the Alpine but is understood to be powered by a Toyota engine.

Renault insiders are already discussing the name – notably with its recently appointed advisory board of former Alpine drivers and experts "who created the Alpine story" – but have not yet reached any conclusions about whether to pursue a sequence of letters and numbers (A110, A310, A610) or come up with a name.

"We have time to discuss and decide," says Tavares. "The production car is about three years away, but about a year before that we will probably show a concept. In the meantime, we will find other ways to feed the brand."
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      05-03-2013, 09:23 AM   #1186
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There is no Maserati based on 4C. It will not come, it is not that car. The car will be less light weight, it will be 2+2 mid-front engined, more an M3 and 911 rival, in fact in between. It could be called Shamal.
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      05-03-2013, 03:46 PM   #1187
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I don't even know if the Alpine will ever see the sunlight, let alone a 4c based Maserati... all I'm saying is it's a nice idea...

Quote:
However Maserati boss Harald Wester admits the stylish 4C sports car from sister brand Alfa Romeo could also be part of plans. When asked at the Shanghai show if Maserati could make a 4C, he replied: "It's a nice idea."

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/alfa-ro...-alfa-romeo-4c

Also...


Quote:
Maserati has already announced plans to sell 50,000 cars a year by 2015 following the launch at the Shanghai Motor Show of the Ghibli, a 5 Series rival featuring Ferarri's first diesel engine.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-03-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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      05-03-2013, 06:16 PM   #1188
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Quote:
Online platform Whatcar reported last week that Roberto Corradi, vice-president of product development, said that the Italians are planning diesel-powered models equipped with a device that emits an artificial engine sound to make the car sound sportier.

The noise simulator will likely be similar to the Active Sound system that is currently found in the 2012 BMW F10M M5, meaning that the noise will be channeled through the stereo speakers, delivering a sportier sound experience.

Quote:
The engine, Maserati's first oil burner, boasts 275bhp and 442lb/ft of torque, giving it a 0 to 62mph time of 6.3 seconds. An impressive first attempt, it must be said, but then it was designed by ex-Ferrari F1 engine head honcho Paolo Martinelli.

Although an exact mpg figure is yet to be released, the V6 diesel is said to kick out less than 160g/km of CO2 emissions, making it more tax friendly than your average Mazzy. It should also make a decent-ish noise (we sincerely hope) thanks to sound generators mounted near the exhaust system.

Quote:
The 3.0-liter V6 turbo diesel is the first diesel engine built by Ferrari, delivering 275HP and a massive 600Nm of torque. The maximum power output translates to a 0-100km/h performance in just 6.3 seconds, whilst returning a fuel economy of 6.0litres/100km.

Last edited by GoingTooFast; 05-04-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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