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      10-30-2011, 07:07 PM   #1
///M Rakete
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If you had a choice: 'Ring or Advanced M School

Let's say you had a choice between the two, either a 2-day BMW Experience event at the Nürburgring or a 2-day Advanced M School at VIR? Let's say the cost is a wash, no difference. No European Delivery, no other factors like also being on vacation. In other words, pure and simple, which event/class do you think is the better time spent?

I ask because I think I've become a 'Ring addict. I've gone twice now, routinely doing laps under 8'40", last lap last week was around 8'35". Already getting a couple one-on-one instructor laps on the second day. Pretty sure I can go faster, I dropped 15" between last May and last week, and I have a pretty good idea what I need to focus on.

Could I get as good or better instruction at VIR? Probably and maybe (due to the lower instructor-to-student ratio and not sharing a car -- then again switching cars at BMW's U.S. training events has always been a distraction for me, I'm an M3 driver, let me drive just M3s).

I think if there is a differentiator here it is the track. Whereas VIR is notable the 'Ring is, well the 'Ring. It's long enough to not get routine, conditions change, etc.

Then again am I missing something? Am I enamored with the 'Ring?

Here's a description of the BMW M Fascination Nordscheife event...

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/d...dschleife.html

Here's a description of the BMW Advanced M School...

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...s/MSchool.aspx
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      10-30-2011, 08:33 PM   #2
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If it were me? I would do the M School. The ring was awesome and a great experience as a part of my euro delivery. But the M School, IMO, will deliver more fun per dollar.

If you've never been on the ring before, I'd say go with the Ring event.
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      10-31-2011, 01:16 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
If it were me? I would do the M School. The ring was awesome and a great experience as a part of my euro delivery. But the M School, IMO, will deliver more fun per dollar.

If you've never been on the ring before, I'd say go with the Ring event.
I say the opposite, .... if your a noob - take the M School
If u got track experience and have some sort of credible race schooling or even an amateur race license = do the ring.
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      10-31-2011, 06:25 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
I say the opposite, .... if your a noob - take the M School
If u got track experience and have some sort of credible race schooling or even an amateur race license = do the ring.
I assumed that he has quite a bit of experience if the OP is signing up for the advanced M school.

But who knows what's going to happen with the 'ring...and how long it will keep going in its current form. So maybe the ring experience would be a better choice.
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      10-31-2011, 10:38 AM   #5
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As for what I would call "formal training or instruction" I've done the BMW 2-Day M School in Spartanburg twice and the 2-day BMW M Event on the Nürburgring Nordschleife twice. I will be going back to the 'Ring, no question.

I do have an opportunity to go to the BMW Advanced M School at VIR. My question is whether the time spent there would be better or not better than the time spent at the 'Ring in another BMW M Event?

The BMW M Event is two-days of fairly intense instruction and course study with many runs while the track is closed and dedicated to our use. It is not a bunch a tourist laps done in survival mode. I am now comfortable on the 'Ring and I'll do 120 mph in several sections, 140 mph into Schwedenkreuz.

I don't think I'm bragging but I don't consider myself a noob.

I'm tempted to pass on the trip to VIR (I only have so much money) but I would hate to miss something that it or the BMW folks there are unique for.
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Last edited by ///M Rakete; 10-31-2011 at 12:43 PM.
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      10-31-2011, 10:41 AM   #6
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Nurburgring, hands down.
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      10-31-2011, 12:15 PM   #7
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Nurburgring, hands down.
+1. It's the Ring.
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      10-31-2011, 04:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Rakete View Post
As for what I would call "formal training or instruction" I've done the BMW 2-Day M School in Spartanburg twice and the 2-day BMW M Event on the Nürburgring Nordschleife twice. I will be going back to the 'Ring, no question.

I do have an opportunity to go to the BMW Advanced M School at VIR. My question is whether the time spent there would be better or not better than the time spent at the 'Ring in another BMW M Event?

The BMW M Event is two-days of fairly intense instruction and course study with many runs while the track is closed and dedicated to our use. It is not a bunch a tourist laps done in survival mode. I am now comfortable on the 'Ring and I'll do 120 mph in several sections, 140 mph into Schwedenkreuz.

I don't think I'm bragging but I don't consider myself a noob.

I'm tempted to pass on the trip to VIR (I only have so much money) but I would hate to miss something that it or the BMW folks there are unique for.
Thats the 1 thing that sucks aabout the ring = traffic. Especially on tourist days.
You have a good point about the M School at VIRi closed track, intense instructions, corner by corner analysis... those all contribute to a great VIR experience.

However, if your doing 8:30s in a e9xm3 at the ring ... thats fast ....and ur def nota noob. So if you can go to the ring in a private event that limits the amount of people on track = thats the way to go. And if you can get a veteran ring instructor with you = even better.
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      10-31-2011, 07:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Thats the 1 thing that sucks aabout the ring = traffic. Especially on tourist days.
You have a good point about the M School at VIRi closed track, intense instructions, corner by corner analysis... those all contribute to a great VIR experience.

However, if your doing 8:30s in a e9xm3 at the ring ... thats fast ....and ur def nota noob. So if you can go to the ring in a private event that limits the amount of people on track = thats the way to go. And if you can get a veteran ring instructor with you = even better.
The number of people is completely limited. 8 groups of 4 cars with 2 students each.

During the section by section training you are in and out of the car looking at pavement changes, road camber, bumps, curbs, rougher pavement (for traction), crests, off track reference points, etc. You then run that section repeatedly switching order. You only see the other groups when you are turning around to rinse and repeat.

Then with full laps you put it together. They manage very well to limit the amount of overtaking and passing by staggering the groups. Of course a particularly slow group will eventually get lapped depending on breaks and driver changes.

Everything is instructor led. These guys know the 'Ring, even race on it, and have eyes in the back of their heads. The quality of the instruction is at least as good as that at Spartanburg. Their English ain't so bad either. The instructors knew very quickly that this was a repeat trip for me. They were very accommodating and allowed me and another repeater some solo, but still instructor-led, laps on the second day.

Now an instructor-led lap might be a bit of a cheat when you are behind the Instructor. So what they told me was that with some established confidence, say your third or fourth event (which I can understand, you better have a pretty good idea what's coming even if they talk you around -- by the way part of learning the 'Ring in my book is learning a spoken/thought cadence that describes each approach and turn while visualizing the track ahead as if you can see through the ground), they will allow a solo student car to lead the Instructor. VIR/Advanced M School does instructor-led laps but then they require helmets too. No helmets at the 'Ring, then the Germans might be crazy, but I'll bet there's no chance for a student-led lap at VIR.

I think I'll be canceling my VIR trip.

Thanks for the inputs.
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      10-31-2011, 08:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Rakete View Post
The number of people is completely limited. 8 groups of 4 cars with 2 students each.

During the section by section training you are in and out of the car looking at pavement changes, road camber, bumps, curbs, rougher pavement (for traction), crests, off track reference points, etc. You then run that section repeatedly switching order. You only see the other groups when you are turning around to rinse and repeat.

Then with full laps you put it together. They manage very well to limit the amount of overtaking and passing by staggering the groups. Of course a particularly slow group will eventually get lapped depending on breaks and driver changes.

Everything is instructor led. These guys know the 'Ring, even race on it, and have eyes in the back of their heads. The quality of the instruction is at least as good as that at Spartanburg. Their English ain't so bad either. The instructors knew very quickly that this was a repeat trip for me. They were very accommodating and allowed me and another repeater some solo, but still instructor-led, laps on the second day.

Now an instructor-led lap might be a bit of a cheat when you are behind the Instructor. So what they told me was that with some established confidence, say your third or fourth event (which I can understand, you better have a pretty good idea what's coming even if they talk you around -- by the way part of learning the 'Ring in my book is learning a spoken/thought cadence that describes each approach and turn while visualizing the track ahead as if you can see through the ground), they will allow a solo student car to lead the Instructor. VIR/Advanced M School does instructor-led laps but then they require helmets too. No helmets at the 'Ring, then the Germans might be crazy, but I'll bet there's no chance for a student-led lap at VIR.

I think I'll be canceling my VIR trip.

Thanks for the inputs.
Dude! ... thats a no-brainer then ... Ring all the way
I had a very different experience at the Ring ... but it was 'renting' race cars and fast street cars. And most of the time i was alone.

Can you email me a link to sign up for this. Im interested and want to know some more details.
Thanks
mastek@usa.com
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      11-01-2011, 06:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Rakete View Post
The number of people is completely limited. 8 groups of 4 cars with 2 students each.

During the section by section training you are in and out of the car looking at pavement changes, road camber, bumps, curbs, rougher pavement (for traction), crests, off track reference points, etc. You then run that section repeatedly switching order. You only see the other groups when you are turning around to rinse and repeat.

Then with full laps you put it together. They manage very well to limit the amount of overtaking and passing by staggering the groups. Of course a particularly slow group will eventually get lapped depending on breaks and driver changes.

Everything is instructor led. These guys know the 'Ring, even race on it, and have eyes in the back of their heads. The quality of the instruction is at least as good as that at Spartanburg. Their English ain't so bad either. The instructors knew very quickly that this was a repeat trip for me. They were very accommodating and allowed me and another repeater some solo, but still instructor-led, laps on the second day.

Now an instructor-led lap might be a bit of a cheat when you are behind the Instructor. So what they told me was that with some established confidence, say your third or fourth event (which I can understand, you better have a pretty good idea what's coming even if they talk you around -- by the way part of learning the 'Ring in my book is learning a spoken/thought cadence that describes each approach and turn while visualizing the track ahead as if you can see through the ground), they will allow a solo student car to lead the Instructor. VIR/Advanced M School does instructor-led laps but then they require helmets too. No helmets at the 'Ring, then the Germans might be crazy, but I'll bet there's no chance for a student-led lap at VIR.

I think I'll be canceling my VIR trip.

Thanks for the inputs.
Although VIR is an awesome track and I think you'd still learn quite a bit at the Advanced M School, however, based on what you said above my vote would be 100% for the Ring!
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      11-01-2011, 10:43 AM   #12
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The Ring for sure! One of the most famous tracks in the world. You can do performance driving at local tracks anytime. The Ring would be one of those once in a lifetime things IMO.
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      11-05-2011, 03:01 PM   #13
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I've done both and both are great. The Ring is a drive of a lifetime.
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      11-05-2011, 04:02 PM   #14
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I have over 500 laps at VIR alone, am an instructor there and at other tracks, and have been to the Performance Center three times, thus to say, a lot of experience with BMW track activities this side of the pond. I have not driven the ring, so to me, the ring would be a no brainer. I would go there.
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      11-05-2011, 04:47 PM   #15
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I've decided to postpone VIR and the Advanced M School, at least for now.

I'll be going back to the 'Ring for my third 2-day event in May and if possible again one more time, August or October.

I learned a lot this last time and know that the third trip will be as valuable plus I can focus on the M3. A fourth trip will see if I can score a student-led lap or laps (apparently possible).

When I'm about to run out of FF miles I'll look into VIR again.

Thanks everyone!
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      11-06-2011, 09:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
When I'm about to run out of FF miles I'll look into VIR again
While VIR is not the Ring, it is most certainly one of the best tracks in the US. If you have not been here, I highly recommend you attempt to put it somewhere in your schedule. PM when you plan to consider coming. See you there?
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      11-06-2011, 10:26 AM   #17
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While VIR is not the Ring, it is most certainly one of the best tracks in the US. If you have not been here, I highly recommend you attempt to put it somewhere in your schedule. PM when you plan to consider coming. See you there?
vz
Will do. At this point either end of 2012 or first half of 2013 would be my guess.
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      11-11-2011, 09:49 AM   #18
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Hey guys - I came across this thread late but I was wondering if anyone did the BMW M experiences in germany?

I'm headed there this summer and I'm looking at a 1 day M Drift School or a Nurburgring M Fahrertraining course...

Any experience or suggestions?

I've done the US M school twice, a few other programs (Skip Barber Advanced Car Control, Boundurant 3 Day racing, Porsche Driving Experience) and a few HPDS (VIR, LimeRock).
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      11-11-2011, 09:53 AM   #19
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OP, can you please document your Ring school? I'd love to see photos of the experience!
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      11-11-2011, 12:35 PM   #20
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Hey guys - I came across this thread late but I was wondering if anyone did the BMW M experiences in germany?

I'm headed there this summer and I'm looking at a 1 day M Drift School or a Nurburgring M Fahrertraining course...

Any experience or suggestions?

I've done the US M school twice, a few other programs (Skip Barber Advanced Car Control, Boundurant 3 Day racing, Porsche Driving Experience) and a few HPDS (VIR, LimeRock).
I've done the BMW M Fascination Nordschleife experience twice now...

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/d...dschleife.html

I've also done the 2-day M School twice. The 'Ring is a lot more fun and more challenging, perhaps in ways that the Advanced M School at VIR would be. I plan on 1 or 2 more trips to the 'Ring and then doing VIR to check that box.

The great think about these experiences is that while other training is all about technique this training is about this track. The instructors will accommodate faster students with solo laps, you study the pavement changes, crests, etc. It's about applying technique on what is a very long, challenging track with many blind turns.

If you can't tell I'm hooked.
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      11-11-2011, 12:42 PM   #21
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OP, can you please document your Ring school? I'd love to see photos of the experience!
I've got video of an 8'50" lap in May and two sub-8'40" laps in October. At some point I suppose I might post them to YouTube.

Here are some pictures from May 2011...
Attached Images
        
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      11-11-2011, 12:47 PM   #22
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Pictures from October 2011, fewer, I'm not a big picture taker, these are the two instructors we had, that I got solo instructor-led laps from, and the car I shared with another student...
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