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      11-15-2011, 07:59 PM   #23
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudiS5 View Post
http://www.fastestlaps.com/compariso...ss_302_ls.html

While I don't have any official times for the Boss LS in comparison to a ZCP M3 I don't think whip is the correct term. The mustang has come a very ling way and I doubt BMW will progress with the next model as Ford did with that car, but please don't make such bold claims without numbers. And before you attack back, Bruce, I've seen your posts on this forum and typically they are aimed at the M3 when other cars are in question. I respect the knowledge you have, just trying to make a simple point.
Pardon me while I attack back.

Pretty sure I read that the M3 went somewhere in the 1:42-43 reange at Laguna Seca while the Boss 302 went around 1:40, and the LS version went 1:39.

At Laguna Seca, that's a whipping - and Laguna Seca was the track I referred to. Of course that's also the track where Ford said that their goal was to beat the M3, and obviously they had already beat up on the Bimmer or they wouldn't have announced that. One can surmise that the car was pretty much optimized for that course, so "your results may vary" on other courses.
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      11-15-2011, 08:24 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///My5UV View Post
Hey, if Ford built a 4-door with a manual transmission I'd seriously consider it. SVT, why do you fail me!?
You'd have to be an irrational car snob to overlook some of the great stuff that the domestic makers have been doing lately. Too bad those caddies are fugly :-(
I agree.....totally. Love the M3 and have one currently on order!!! But 650/600 in a road car are pretty awesome numbers. Now it depends on how they have designed the drive line, and I am not totally against a live rear axle either ... kinda old school. As long as they are in the low 4's to sub-4's in their 0-60 with some semblance of a handling that is an improvement over the current edition, I am sure there will be a lot of eager peeps like me trying to revel in the beauty of rowing your gears on a SC 5.8L 650/600 monstrosity...........

like the camaro too, but definitely not a fan of the challenger, too over-hangy at both front and rear.... to me, the mustang shape is the trimmest of them all.....long live competition...
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      11-15-2011, 09:22 PM   #25
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As immature as this comment may seem, its a Ford at the end of the day. Same company that makes the Focus.
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      11-15-2011, 09:29 PM   #26
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Because no matter how many horses they squeeze our of that engine
It a cheap car
I sat in my friends 2011 GT500
Looks like cheap shit on the inside
Transmission whine
The screen on the radio looks like my calculator did back in 1982
I'm sorry to say it, but American car companies can't build decent interiors to save their life
It shocks me that after all these years, they still can't figure out how to build a premium interior
Oh and solid rear axle?
Really?
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      11-15-2011, 09:31 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simma View Post
As immature as this comment may seem, its a Ford at the end of the day. Same company that makes the Focus.
Have you driven a '12 Ford Focus? It's a decent car, and the hatch version actually looks good. BMW is better because their cheapest car costs almost twice as much?
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      11-15-2011, 10:13 PM   #28
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An m3 wilk never be able to compete with american power in a straight line just forget about it.
Just remember why you guys got an m3 in the first place..because it is a LUXURY sports car...not a sports car.
A vette has supercar performance but most of you guys cant live with it due to poor interior and quality, If you guys dont mind that, then get a z06 and call it a day.
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      11-15-2011, 11:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simma View Post
As immature as this comment may seem, its a Ford at the end of the day. Same company that makes the Focus.
Very true... But lets not forget that BMW makes the 1, the 328, and the x3 not to mention the electric/ hybrid goof-machines they're working on.
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      11-16-2011, 09:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
Pardon me while I attack back.

Pretty sure I read that the M3 went somewhere in the 1:42-43 reange at Laguna Seca while the Boss 302 went around 1:40, and the LS version went 1:39.

At Laguna Seca, that's a whipping - and Laguna Seca was the track I referred to. Of course that's also the track where Ford said that their goal was to beat the M3, and obviously they had already beat up on the Bimmer or they wouldn't have announced that. One can surmise that the car was pretty much optimized for that course, so "your results may vary" on other courses.
Everything you just said I realize, I'm not ignorant to anything, but do realize I specifically said ZCP M3. While I do believe the end result will be the same on the Laguna Seca track, I do believe the split would be marginally lower.
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      11-16-2011, 10:26 AM   #31
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so all I have to do is buy this car, put the gear selector in D, mash my foot down, and I hit 200 mph? Pretty easy then, what happens when I turn that wheel thingy?
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      11-16-2011, 10:34 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudiS5 View Post
Everything you just said I realize, I'm not ignorant to anything, but do realize I specifically said ZCP M3. While I do believe the end result will be the same on the Laguna Seca track, I do believe the split would be marginally lower.
So we're discussing what "whip" means? No offense intended, but we should table that type of discussion.

I personally think the ZCP would be quicker around a given track than the standard car, but is there any data on this? As a for instance, I'm surprised that there aren't any M3 'Ring times posted since way back when.

One would think the ZCP might be below eight minutes at the 'Ring, and of course the automatic might be quicker as well. Do you know of comparative results at the 'Ring, or anywhere else?

Bruce

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 11-16-2011 at 10:40 AM.
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      11-16-2011, 11:09 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
so all I have to do is buy this car, put the gear selector in D, mash my foot down, and I hit 200 mph? Pretty easy then, what happens when I turn that wheel thingy?
Mustangs do handle these days.
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      11-16-2011, 11:45 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
For some reason, BMW isn't pushing too hard on FI. Look at 335, 3liter engine with 300hp with 2 turbos.

Sure it can be modded, but I'm not sure if it is long term reliable.
Take a gander on the 335i sections and see what we did with this car. my car sure doesnt have 300 hp anymore lol. Im so happy the new m3 is FI. The 335 guys have been running full bolt ons and meth and turbo upgrades forever and there are problems but are still used as DD.

back on topic, the mustang is a mustang. an m3 is an m3. cant compare the two
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      11-16-2011, 11:57 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPWINCH View Post
Take a gander on the 335i sections and see what we did with this car. my car sure doesnt have 300 hp anymore lol. Im so happy the new m3 is FI. The 335 guys have been running full bolt ons and meth and turbo upgrades forever and there are problems but are still used as DD.

back on topic, the mustang is a mustang. an m3 is an m3. cant compare the two
We're trying to compare stock to stock. As amazing as the boltons are, most people have no interest in putting their warranties and reliability in jeopardy.
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      11-16-2011, 11:57 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemw335 View Post
An m3 wilk never be able to compete with american power in a straight line just forget about it.
Just remember why you guys got an m3 in the first place..because it is a LUXURY sports car...not a sports car.
A vette has supercar performance but most of you guys cant live with it due to poor interior and quality, If you guys dont mind that, then get a z06 and call it a day.
Well put. Loved the performance of my Z06. Most of my BMW buddies still refuse to believe that this car will handily whip any production BMW ever made.... Only in a straight line my ass.

And this is coming from the owner of 600 HP SC'd E92 M3. I still think a Z06 would hand it to me as it's 500 pounds lighter and has more torque.

I'll put the new beastly mustang in the same category as my Z06. Both crazy fun to drive for a weekend here and there..but as something that you'd use on a daily basis, the luxuries, tech and refinement of a BMW are usually only disregarded by those that can't afford one.
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      11-16-2011, 01:07 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simma View Post
As immature as this comment may seem, its a Ford at the end of the day. Same company that makes the Focus.
As much as I hate to admit this, It's also the same company that beat Ferrari back in the day.. It's a company that is\has been targeting our beloved M3's.. BMW set the benchmark with the M3 and companies like Merc, Audi have been working to top this car... Now, some new contenders enter the game (Ford and Chevy)... Maybe it's time that we should give credit where credit is due, eh?
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      11-16-2011, 01:52 PM   #38
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I tend to laugh at the fascination that some have with cars producing well over the usable horsepower - especially in the US. How much horsepower is just too much? I'm not saying that the Mustang can't handle 650+ (and even handle it well, as evidenced by the recent improvements with the new 5.0 and Boss), but how often are you going to be able to use that amount of power? I know many on this forum head to the track on a regular basis, but what about DDing? I live in Germany, where I'm fortunate enough to hit speeds in excess of 160mph, but I'm seriously considering selling my M3 when I return to the States, as I'll never be able to enjoy this DDing fun. Sure I can head to the track, but it's always fun to legally push the limits on the Autobahn on a daily basis.

Just a thought.
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      11-16-2011, 02:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless 45 View Post
Love my '11 M3, not a fan of current American muscle cars. But after reading this it is painfully apparent that M Division needs to step up it's game if it's going to stay relevant, at least in the North American market. I mean 650 hp and 600 lb ft of torque -stock- and the new M3 gets a 6 cylinder? Granted the interior will probably suck, but performance wise this car is going to leave certain more refined cars in it's dust, and for about the same money.


http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/...0-mph-mustang/
Sounds like an awesome car. Competition is great for us consumers.

M has managed to stay relevant for the past 20 years or so - I expect them to continue their winning ways.
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      11-16-2011, 02:15 PM   #40
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I tend to laugh at the fascination that some have with cars producing well over the usable horsepower - especially in the US. How much horsepower is just too much? I'm not saying that the Mustang can't handle 650+ (and even handle it well, as evidenced by the recent improvements with the new 5.0 and Boss), but how often are you going to be able to use that amount of power? I know many on this forum head to the track on a regular basis, but what about DDing? I live in Germany, where I'm fortunate enough to hit speeds in excess of 160mph, but I'm seriously considering selling my M3 when I return to the States, as I'll never be able to enjoy this DDing fun. Sure I can head to the track, but it's always fun to legally push the limits on the Autobahn on a daily basis.

Just a thought.
Even 414hp is too much in a DD. The problem is different at the track. Sure 650hp is great, but now you need massive tires, big brakes, and you'll go through them really quickly.. Makes tracking exponentially expensive.
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      11-16-2011, 02:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Simma View Post
As immature as this comment may seem, its a Ford at the end of the day. Same company that makes the Focus.
BMW makes "cheap" cars in Europe, and other markets also. What does that have to do with anything?

So does Nissan...they also make one of the cheapest and best performing supercars in the world.

You can't judge quality by the range of the product line...judge it based on measurable, and important, metrics.
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      11-16-2011, 03:15 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3man35 View Post
I tend to laugh at the fascination that some have with cars producing well over the usable horsepower - especially in the US. How much horsepower is just too much? I'm not saying that the Mustang can't handle 650+ (and even handle it well, as evidenced by the recent improvements with the new 5.0 and Boss), but how often are you going to be able to use that amount of power? I know many on this forum head to the track on a regular basis, but what about DDing? I live in Germany, where I'm fortunate enough to hit speeds in excess of 160mph, but I'm seriously considering selling my M3 when I return to the States, as I'll never be able to enjoy tTotally agree. While I love my 6.4L Challenger SRT8, the opportunities to enjoy its 470 hp. are few and far between. That is part of the reason why my favorite cars are my E46 M3 and my newly acquired Z3 M Coupe (with an S52 engine)

I go back and forth between wanting an E92 M3, but realize I very rarely even can wind out my E46 M3 to its 8k redline. Thus like you are saying, what is the point of that extra power and modernization other than for comfort or luxury?

I'm definitely considering swapping my SRT8 for this new GT500, but that's mainly because of the 250-300 lbs. weight difference and likely more sporty handling the Ford should offer.

What this really comes down to is fun in real world street driving in the US... and the more I think about it the best upcoming options may likely be the Subuaru BRZ STI or the Fiat 500 Abarth.his DDing fun. Sure I can head to the track, but it's always fun to legally push the limits on the Autobahn on a daily basis.

Just a thought.
Totally agree. While I love my 6.4L Challenger SRT8, the opportunities to enjoy its 470 hp and 470 lb/ft of torque are few and far between. That is part of the reason why my favorite cars are my E46 M3 and my newly acquired Z3 M Coupe (with an S52 engine.)

I go back and forth between wanting an E92 M3, but realize I very rarely even can wind out my E46 M3 to its 8k redline. Thus like you are saying, what is the point of that extra power and modernization from the E92 M3 other than for comfort or luxury?

I'm definitely considering swapping my SRT8 for this new GT500, but that's mainly because of the 300 lbs. weight difference and likely more sporty handling the Ford should offer.

What this really comes down to is fun in real world street driving in the US... and the more I think about it the best upcoming options may likely be the Subuaru BRZ STI or the Fiat 500 Abarth.
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      11-16-2011, 04:19 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
Totally agree. While I love my 6.4L Challenger SRT8, the opportunities to enjoy its 470 hp and 470 lb/ft of torque are few and far between. That is part of the reason why my favorite cars are my E46 M3 and my newly acquired Z3 M Coupe (with an S52 engine.)

I go back and forth between wanting an E92 M3, but realize I very rarely even can wind out my E46 M3 to its 8k redline. Thus like you are saying, what is the point of that extra power and modernization from the E92 M3 other than for comfort or luxury?

I'm definitely considering swapping my SRT8 for this new GT500, but that's mainly because of the 300 lbs. weight difference and likely more sporty handling the Ford should offer.

What this really comes down to is fun in real world street driving in the US... and the more I think about it the best upcoming options may likely be the Subuaru BRZ STI or the Fiat 500 Abarth.
Get a 2013 Boss 302
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      11-16-2011, 11:21 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3man35 View Post
I tend to laugh at the fascination that some have with cars producing well over the usable horsepower - especially in the US. How much horsepower is just too much? I'm not saying that the Mustang can't handle 650+ (and even handle it well, as evidenced by the recent improvements with the new 5.0 and Boss), but how often are you going to be able to use that amount of power? I know many on this forum head to the track on a regular basis, but what about DDing? I live in Germany, where I'm fortunate enough to hit speeds in excess of 160mph, but I'm seriously considering selling my M3 when I return to the States, as I'll never be able to enjoy this DDing fun. Sure I can head to the track, but it's always fun to legally push the limits on the Autobahn on a daily basis.

Just a thought.
Okay, but you raise two different points. 1. Will the Mustang be able to put down 650 HP to two rear wheels? Yes and no, it'll probably be an animal that you have to use very carefully (without the nannies).

2. Can you use the HP in everyday driving? No, but as others have noted, you can absolutely say the same about the M3, or for that matter my old 306HP G35. Most cars are capable of substantial performance beyond legal limits, so where is the scale "reasonable" vs. "unreasonable"?

Cheers
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