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      11-16-2011, 12:24 PM   #45
Nate@IND
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erm324 View Post
How much louder would you anticipate a full catless exhaust with this being? It dont want the car sounding out of hand lol
I would not anticipate an increase in sound since the OEM headers are already catless.
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      11-16-2011, 01:02 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
I would not anticipate an increase in sound since the OEM headers are already catless.
If they flow better, I'd expect the exhaust to be at least a little bit louder. At least that was the case with my previous 350z which also has catless headers. It wasn't a huge increase though.
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      11-16-2011, 01:07 PM   #47
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I don't know if this has been covered yet, but what kind of power increase should one expect with a full exhaust ie: akrapovic or innotech?
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      11-16-2011, 01:09 PM   #48
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We will have to test each combination after the headers are released, before quoting specific power figured for each one.
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      11-16-2011, 01:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate@IND View Post
I would not anticipate an increase in sound since the OEM headers are already catless.
Yeah, no additional volume, but in my experience with headers on other cars the tone may change.

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Originally Posted by Kyoshi71 View Post
Everything you say makes a whole lot of sense. However, header wrapping is not only to reduce underhood temps. The reason for wrapping, as I always understood it (other than a lucrative record deal ) was:
1) Keep the heat in because hot exhaust gas moves faster thus creating a better exhaust system.
2) Maintain a constant temperature at exhaust ports because temperature fluctuation kills exhaust valves.
3) Underhood temp reduction.
4) Create a wonderful itching sensation in the hands for about 2 days after installation from the fiberglass
Yes, hot exhaust gas does indeed move faster but it is not always beneficial to have it as hot as possible. Most (I mean most but of course not all) of the cars that you used to see using header wrapping on were old school lower revving V8 engines. The problem with the S65 is that since it turns so fast the EGT's get high as a result of so many combustion events happening with so little time in between for any exhaust valve cooling to take place. There is a big difference in an engine spinning say 5K or 6K RPM compared to 8.4K RPM. Also since the S65 has lower torque compared to larger displacement and FI engines it spends a whole lot more time in the upper ranges of the tach than most anything else on the road.

So I do agree that hotter EGT's mean better flow however, with the S65, keeping combustion chamber temps down slightly compared to quicker exhaust flow from hotter header temps is better for performance. Maximizing timing is the #1 thing you can do on an S65 for added performance and all of PG's dyno testing of 100 octane and Shiv's use of WM on an otherwise stock engine proves it.
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Last edited by BMRLVR; 11-16-2011 at 01:27 PM.
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      11-16-2011, 02:03 PM   #50
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Okay cool, definitely interested in these!
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      11-16-2011, 02:26 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Yeah, no additional volume, but in my experience with headers on other cars the tone may change.



Yes, hot exhaust gas does indeed move faster but it is not always beneficial to have it as hot as possible. Most (I mean most but of course not all) of the cars that you used to see using header wrapping on were old school lower revving V8 engines. The problem with the S65 is that since it turns so fast the EGT's get high as a result of so many combustion events happening with so little time in between for any exhaust valve cooling to take place. There is a big difference in an engine spinning say 5K or 6K RPM compared to 8.4K RPM. Also since the S65 has lower torque compared to larger displacement and FI engines it spends a whole lot more time in the upper ranges of the tach than most anything else on the road.

So I do agree that hotter EGT's mean better flow however, with the S65, keeping combustion chamber temps down slightly compared to quicker exhaust flow from hotter header temps is better for performance. Maximizing timing is the #1 thing you can do on an S65 for added performance and all of PG's dyno testing of 100 octane and Shiv's use of WM on an otherwise stock engine proves it.
Very informative post. Like Kyoshi, I have always come from the "keep the heat in and the exhaust velocity up" camp. Of course, I haven't had an engine like this until now : )

What do you do for a living if I may be so bold?
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      11-16-2011, 02:28 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Very informative post. Like Kyoshi, I have always come from the "keep the heat in and the exhaust velocity up" camp. Of course, I haven't had an engine like this until now : )

What do you do for a living if I may be so bold?


http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ight=Moonstone
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      11-16-2011, 02:32 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Yeah, no additional volume, but in my experience with headers on other cars the tone may change.



Yes, hot exhaust gas does indeed move faster but it is not always beneficial to have it as hot as possible. Most (I mean most but of course not all) of the cars that you used to see using header wrapping on were old school lower revving V8 engines. The problem with the S65 is that since it turns so fast the EGT's get high as a result of so many combustion events happening with so little time in between for any exhaust valve cooling to take place. There is a big difference in an engine spinning say 5K or 6K RPM compared to 8.4K RPM. Also since the S65 has lower torque compared to larger displacement and FI engines it spends a whole lot more time in the upper ranges of the tach than most anything else on the road.

So I do agree that hotter EGT's mean better flow however, with the S65, keeping combustion chamber temps down slightly compared to quicker exhaust flow from hotter header temps is better for performance. Maximizing timing is the #1 thing you can do on an S65 for added performance and all of PG's dyno testing of 100 octane and Shiv's use of WM on an otherwise stock engine proves it.
Great post! That makes sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singletrack View Post
Very informative post. Like Kyoshi, I have always come from the "keep the heat in and the exhaust velocity up" camp. Of course, I haven't had an engine like this until now : )
Very True. This 8,400rpm stuff is new to most of us
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      11-16-2011, 02:34 PM   #54
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So in theory, you pair this with the MRF Exhaust system and Tune - $3,200 + $3,900 for the headers + $1,500 installation = $8,600.

Assuming calculated gains claimed by both MRF and M24:
Total = 500HP/ 365TQ

DANG.
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      11-16-2011, 02:36 PM   #55
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Ah, yes - now I remember. Thanks Nate! One of my favorite cars on here as well...
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      11-16-2011, 02:42 PM   #56
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What a sick car. I also remember now.
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      11-16-2011, 02:55 PM   #57
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I work on engines for a living..... they are pretty big engines though!!!

I am also lisenced to work on the automotive stuff but as far as money is concerned a Heavy Equipment pays bigger, pardon the pun!

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      11-16-2011, 02:58 PM   #58
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very interesting
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      11-16-2011, 03:53 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SROC3 View Post
So in theory, you pair this with the MRF Exhaust system and Tune - $3,200 + $3,900 for the headers + $1,500 installation = $8,600.

Assuming calculated gains claimed by both MRF and M24:
Total = 500HP/ 365TQ

DANG.
I have never had good luck adding up the claimed gains from a bunch of mods and then finding the total of those gains on the dyno. But the claims for the headers are significant -- as much as the nest best mod, a track pipe, and about 8 times better than the most popular mod, a more powerful sounding rear exhaust.
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      11-17-2011, 12:02 AM   #60
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any weight savings?
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      11-17-2011, 09:16 AM   #61
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There will not be a significant weight savings, most likely, but we will provide weight figures once M24 finalizes their header design.
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      11-17-2011, 03:57 PM   #62
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Hey Ilia, Nate,

I will generously offer my car to be the first test object to get the headers installed... at no cost to you. I'm also more than happy to test this with the highest VT-2 kit out there... the community needs to know, and we need those numbers.

Best,
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First set is going on this M

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      11-18-2011, 08:11 AM   #63
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      11-18-2011, 11:10 PM   #64
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First set is going on this M
ofcourse, why am i not surprised?
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      11-19-2011, 02:05 AM   #65
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So I stumble on this thread to see you guys tinkering with my car again
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      11-19-2011, 09:07 AM   #66
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Ilia, Nate: Ok, so you have the TEST CAR chosen (Lucky Guy and sorry Philip), when can we expect dyno results?
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