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      11-12-2011, 08:20 PM   #45
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A car salesman in this economy turning down a sale? Yeah, I'm joining the b.s. comment.
If they knew going into it that they can't get financing for the OP, why would they do it? So, it's not entirely BS. We are talking about a move from a 60 K car to a 170 K car. It's a huge jump. When I was moving up to a P-car earlier this year, I also had trouble finding financing even though I have a over 50% down payment to put down.

Also, making 250K may sound like a lot, but we don't know how the OP's finances are doing. If you were a doctor just finished residency with a family, a mortgage and all the student loan from the previous 15 years, 250K doesn't go that far........
Amen brother ... I'm 42, in my fourth year in practice ... I make a lot more than $250,000/year, but with med school loans, mortgage, kids, family, saving for retirement, I can't afford a $170,000 car ....
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      11-12-2011, 08:24 PM   #46
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Regardless of almost all measure or comparison an annual income of $250,000.00 is "rich" -

Average income - $60,528 per year
But this is not a good reference. Due to the fact that higher incomes skew very much higher than average, the number is much higher than the situation most Americans find themselves in.
So here we go ...

Median income - $44,389 per year
More realistic. The yearly income amount in the dead middle of America is surprisingly low.
This is per household.
The large majority of Americans make far less than $50,000 a year.

And as to the rest of the world, $50,000 is within the top 1% of household income.

Yes. If you own or lease an M3 you are rich.
Actually ... virtually every member of these forums is "rich." We are extraordinarily fortunate.
Pretty sobering.

What the recipient can do with that income and how she or he feels is a completely different matter.

All numbers from US census and United Nations.

Last edited by hlmiii; 11-12-2011 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Review for accuracy
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      11-12-2011, 08:24 PM   #47
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Me? Don't even worry about me. I make minimum wage at this point for working 60+ hours a week. I don't owe any money though (say full scholarship) and have a matching trust though, so I'm ok so far.

I'm just saying that before you start saying other people are very well off for making x amount of money, try and see from their end what kind of obligation they have. It's easy to say that they are not content for what they have, they overstretch their budget, etc etc. However, you have to realize how much time and money they have spent to get to that point. A doctor making 250K vs an investment banker making 250K is 2 completely different animals. You can argue that the doctor didn't have to be a doctor or could have gone to a public institution. However, the reality is, if it weren't for these doctors, who will be there to take care of you when you need it? This is usually not discussed outside of the medical world. People think doctors are greedy and they want more and more money, but the same time, the cost for medical education is going up and up every year. A lot of my peers will not be able to pay off their debt until they are 40. Compare to those in Wall Street making millions, I don't know if you could call them the same. That's why the smartest kids these days don't go into medicine and children of physicians and surgeons are discouraged by their parents to go into medicine.

JUST SAYIN', feel free to continue to disagree.
Well....I am an anesthesiologist who finished residency in 1997. I still believe medicine to be an incredible profession. You do good almost every day and it is very emotionally rewarding. You will also see and do things that will utterly amaze you. You contribute to and change people's lives in ways you can not begin to imagine. And while a few of those wall street types may be making really big bucks, physicians as a whole are the highest paid profession in the U.S. For what we do, I honest believe it is deserved. Make no mistake, however, it is hard earned money. The stress, the hours, can be extremely taxing on the body and the mind even after residency. Your career will require understanding and sacrifices from your family. And speaking of this, when you embark on a profession in medicine, it is not a career or job, really. It becomes part of your very identity to the core. It is who you are.

When I was in residency, there were no limits to work hours. I remember clocking in one week in which I worked 134 hours. I earned $32,000 that year.

Through it all, however, there is no other job or profession I could ever see myself doing. I love going to work every day. It is always an adventure and it is almost always rewarding.

Kev.....there will come a day in your career when you alone will save a human life. You will leave work knowing that another human being is alive and not dead from actions that you did. It will change you forever. My 15 year old daughter told me she was thinking about being a doctor. I couldn't be happier for her. It is a deeply fulfilling way of life.

And you will pay off the debt a lot faster than you think. People with greater financial obligations usually are hand in hand with greater incomes (gambling debts, etc. notwithstanding). We also tend to spend up when we are earning more, but that doesn't negate the fact that you are actually earning or will earn a high income.
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      11-12-2011, 08:33 PM   #48
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I own an M3!! WOW, I just found out I'm RICH!! I never knew this!!
Actually like me you are super rich we both have more then 2 cars

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Originally Posted by thai357sig View Post
Usually when I go to buy a car, I know:
The price I'm paying. The interest rate. How much I plan to put down. My payments down to a couple of dollars. My financial situation so I would know if I can afford it. No need to waste other people's time, or embarrass myself.
The only problem I have is ... what to tell the wife after I come home with yet another car

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Outgoing 997 for one.
So many used Porsches to choose from I wonder why ?

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finanace means cant afford the car? If he spends the $170,000 in stocks he can make it a double or triple rather then paying a car that depreciates every year
Better invest in Gold, I'll stay clear of stocks at the moment

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Originally Posted by M3MamBo View Post
Oh boy... What a mess... Relax my fellow M3 brothers lol..

I just didn't have enough equity on the car and have other obligations.. What a mistake this was, it was supposed to be an entertaining post. Lol If I knew I was going to get people offended I wouldn't have posted it..
Cheers
No worries it's turning into a very fun post ... so many people making a lot of assumptions ...

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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I'm hoping he is a gigolo because that would be a really awesome profession! If not, an accountant. The best of either extreme
For all we know he is a Plummer and a good one at that

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Originally Posted by Kev View Post
A lot of my peers will not be able to pay off their debt until they are 40. Compare to those in Wall Street making millions, I don't know if you could call them the same. That's why the smartest kids these days don't go into medicine and children of physicians and surgeons are discouraged by their parents to go into medicine.

JUST SAYIN', feel free to continue to disagree.
My former neighbours are both dentists she is nearing 30 he is 35, thy made many sacrifices up to now and are still adding more degrees to there portfolio. One day both will have achieved there final goal perhaps they open a private practice then and he can then purchase that M3 he so much likes.

I know what you mean ... to work in the field of medicine is a struggle to get there many people think it is a breeze to be in this field, unfortunately they do not know the cost and sacrifice it take to get to the end of the line.
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      11-12-2011, 08:39 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
Regardless of almost all measure or comparison an annual income of $250,000.00 is "rich" -

Average income - $60,528 per year
But this is not a good reference. Due to the fact that higher incomes skew very much higher than average, the number is much higher than the situation most Americans find themselves in.
So here we go ...

Median income - $44,389 per year
More realistic. The yearly income amount in the dead middle of America is surprisingly low.
This is per household.
The large majority of Americans make far less than $50,000 a year.

And as to the rest of the world, $50,000 is within the top 1% of household income.

Yes. If you own or lease an M3 you are rich.
Actually ... virtually every member of these forums is "rich." We are extraordinarily fortunate.
Pretty sobering.

What the recipient can do with that income and how she or he feels is a completely different matter.

All numbers from US census and United Nations.
Funny ... I don't feel "rich" ....
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      11-12-2011, 08:40 PM   #50
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Well....I am an anesthesiologist who finished residency in 1997. I still believe medicine to be an incredible profession. You do good almost every day and it is very emotionally rewarding. You will also see and do things that will utterly amaze you. You contribute to and change people's lives in ways you can not begin to imagine. And while a few of those wall street types may be making really big bucks, physicians as a whole are the highest paid profession in the U.S. For what we do, I honest believe it is deserved. Make no mistake, however, it is hard earned money. The stress, the hours, can be extremely taxing on the body and the mind even after residency. Your career will require understanding and sacrifices from your family. And speaking of this, when you embark on a profession in medicine, it is not a career or job, really. It becomes part of your very identity to the core. It is who you are.

When I was in residency, there were no limits to work hours. I remember clocking in one week in which I worked 134 hours. I earned $32,000 that year.

Through it all, however, there is no other job or profession I could ever see myself doing. I love going to work every day. It is always an adventure and it is almost always rewarding.

Kev.....there will come a day in your career when you alone will save a human life. You will leave work knowing that another human being is alive and not dead from actions that you did. It will change you forever. My 15 year old daughter told me she was thinking about being a doctor. I couldn't be happier for her. It is a deeply fulfilling way of life.

And you will pay off the debt a lot faster than you think. People with greater financial obligations usually are hand in hand with greater incomes (gambling debts, etc. notwithstanding). We also tend to spend up when we are earning more, but that doesn't negate the factor that you are actually earning or will earn a high income.
Seriously, you don't have to preach any of that to me. I'm a combined Anesthesiology / Critical Care Medicine trainess and going into CT + ICU so if that doesn't tell you something about me, I don't know what else. I go to work every day with a smile no matter how hard it is. If I didn't believe that we are making a difference in other people's lives, I don't think any of us would be wanting to get to go to work every day. It's the thought that being compared to the greedy Wall Street execs irks me the wrong way.
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      11-12-2011, 08:45 PM   #51
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I think you hit the nail on the head, the SA had a previous offer from a guy that he knows will put the cash on the table (not even a certified cheque since he knows him that well, most likely a repeat customer).

So should he sit down with the OP and work out a trade in and balance cash or finance deal ... he may only have one in the showroom and perhaps another allocated to his dealership next spring.

Deaccession for the SA is very simple ... wait for the fellow with the cash for he needs his cut before Christmas ...

Now if the OP has the financial means he should have gone to another dealership get the car of his dreams then drive back to the first dealer ship park his brand new porsche in front ... go in and smile at the SA and say ...

"You work on commission don't you? well bad mistake ... bad mistake"

Then work out and drive away (Thinking of the movie Pretty woman of course).

This tread has given me an idea ... if ever I get a Porsche I'll get dressed in the most disgusting stuff I can find at home then borrow some old clunker or rent a wreck and drive up to a Porsche dealership. See if the SA can stand the test of time with all my questions. If he gives me the cold shoulder well I'll do exactly what I described above that should be a riot and teach him ... for things are never what they seam
My dad did this years ago (before I was even born). He's not the least bit pretentious and wears grubby clothes wherever he goes. Walked into the Porsche dealership in Winnipeg and asked a few questions. The SA was very cold and didn't really bother answering anything. My dad asked for a test drive. SA said that they didn't have any cars in stock. At this point my dad is pretty pissed, but hands him his business card and says, "well when you get one that I can drive give me a call." SA checks out his business card and reads Dr. XXXX and chases him out of the dealership. My dad didn't even give him the time of day at that point and lost out on not one, but many subsequent sales.

Thats the thing I like about the BMW dealer in Winnipeg. They take everybody seriously, even if they don't turn out to be. They only thing that they don't do is let people drive their ///Ms whenever they want.
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      11-12-2011, 08:52 PM   #52
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That's why the smartest kids these days don't go into medicine and children of physicians and surgeons are discouraged by their parents to go into medicine.
My parents encouraged my brother, my sister and myself to go into the medical field. My dad's a chiropractor, my sister is a nurse, my brother a radiology resident, and I'm in dental school. We're also very young for the amount that we've achieved. Wen I was deciding on where to go for school I kept on getting hung up on the money factor. My dad kept reminding me that I'll be a dentist and I'll pay it off in no time at all. The only thing it means is that I have to postpone buying my M3 for a few years.

I think it's actually quite the opposite as what you've said (among my circle of friends). All of my friends that are in medical school, or residency, dentistry, etc. all come from a family of doctors. Why? Because they see that overall doctors aren't that affected by the recession (only their portfolios).
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      11-12-2011, 08:55 PM   #53
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My parents encouraged my brother, my sister and myself to go into the medical field. My dad's a chiropractor, my sister is a nurse, my brother a radiology resident, and I'm in dental school. We're also very young for the amount that we've achieved. Wen I was deciding on where to go for school I kept on getting hung up on the money factor. My dad kept reminding me that I'll be a dentist and I'll pay it off in no time at all. The only thing it means is that I have to postpone buying my M3 for a few years.

I think it's actually quite the opposite as what you've said (among my circle of friends). All of my friends that are in medical school, or residency, dentistry, etc. all come from a family of doctors. Why? Because they see that overall doctors aren't that affected by the recession (only their portfolios).
Are you going to dental school in the US or in Canada? That might very well explain the difference.
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      11-12-2011, 09:01 PM   #54
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Are you going to dental school in the US or in Canada? That might very well explain the difference.
US. University of Minnesota. All in all though the tuition prices are very similar, within 5-10 thousand.
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      11-12-2011, 09:09 PM   #55
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US. University of Minnesota. All in all though the tuition prices are very similar, within 5-10 thousand.
Try going to a private school and you'll see the difference. State schools and the Canadian system are highly subsidized. Going to BU for 4 years of DDS back in 2005-2009 would set you back >200K just on tuition.
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      11-12-2011, 09:19 PM   #56
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I own an M3!! WOW, I just found out I'm RICH!! I never knew this!!
haha ..cracks me up.
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      11-12-2011, 09:43 PM   #57
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In my opinion, it's all about the value you put on things. My mother values her reliable 1998 Land Cruiser, so she is very likely to continue driving it until it breaks down. My father tends to enjoy driving fast while still keeping it classy, so he purchased a new S65 amg. I guess it is different on a forum where probably everyone values performance cars, but I think based on the cars that people on this forum own, they can afford to purchase just about any car. Obligations are important, but a person who puts great value on a car will try to fulfill those obligations and not create any new ones on the way to attaining that car.

Anyways, my friends (very conservative business owner) brother (investor) convinced him into getting a 911 Turbo with the suggestion that he would invest the money he saved from financing the car. So money that he would have otherwise kept in the bank due to fear of investments, offset his purchase and more. I know this is a special story, but the point is still that he valued the 911 Turbo enough to make such a risky investment just so that he could get into the car of his dreams. He also made sure to do it before he got married because he knew it was all going downhill from there
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      11-12-2011, 09:53 PM   #58
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I own an M3!! WOW, I just found out I'm RICH!! I never knew this!!
Well techinically, the BMWFS owns my M3. So, I guess I'm not "rich" just yet...
I do own a pathfinder though. Does that make me semi-rich?
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      11-12-2011, 10:23 PM   #59
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with all the doctors on this forum it seems like we should be asking for medical advice...instead of all the legal advice threads on how to sue this dealership or that vendor
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      11-12-2011, 11:09 PM   #60
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with all the doctors on this forum it seems like we should be asking for medical advice...instead of all the legal advice threads on how to sue this dealership or that vendor
More popcorn, please....

At least this thread is more interesting than the Oregon vs Stanford game on ABC right now...
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      11-12-2011, 11:15 PM   #61
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Well....I am an anesthesiologist who finished residency in 1997. I still believe medicine to be an incredible profession. You do good almost every day and it is very emotionally rewarding. You will also see and do things that will utterly amaze you. You contribute to and change people's lives in ways you can not begin to imagine. And while a few of those wall street types may be making really big bucks, physicians as a whole are the highest paid profession in the U.S. For what we do, I honest believe it is deserved. Make no mistake, however, it is hard earned money. The stress, the hours, can be extremely taxing on the body and the mind even after residency. Your career will require understanding and sacrifices from your family. And speaking of this, when you embark on a profession in medicine, it is not a career or job, really. It becomes part of your very identity to the core. It is who you are.

When I was in residency, there were no limits to work hours. I remember clocking in one week in which I worked 134 hours. I earned $32,000 that year.

Through it all, however, there is no other job or profession I could ever see myself doing. I love going to work every day. It is always an adventure and it is almost always rewarding.

Kev.....there will come a day in your career when you alone will save a human life. You will leave work knowing that another human being is alive and not dead from actions that you did. It will change you forever. My 15 year old daughter told me she was thinking about being a doctor. I couldn't be happier for her. It is a deeply fulfilling way of life.

And you will pay off the debt a lot faster than you think. People with greater financial obligations usually are hand in hand with greater incomes (gambling debts, etc. notwithstanding). We also tend to spend up when we are earning more, but that doesn't negate the factor that you are actually earning or will earn a high income.

Very inspirational! I'm finishing up internal medicine and starting cardiology fellowship in June...there are days when I wonder why didn't pick a regular 9 to 5 job; but it's great to hear you expound on why i chose medicine in the first place.
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      11-12-2011, 11:15 PM   #62
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... You guys who are posting comments like that just sound like arrogant ass holes...
Is that 1 word or 2 words?
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      11-12-2011, 11:48 PM   #63
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Well, if you make $250k, you are "rich" according to Obama. And let's keep it in perspective.....you are. You earn more than 95% of the US population.

If you earn $350,000 per year you earn more than 99% of the U.S. households and if you break the $1M per year mark, you are better than 99.7% of the U.S. households. That top 0.3% = 400,000 households which are concentrated in the Northeast corridor and California, with only spotty deposits in other locations.

This is why if you live in one of these locations, which many M3 owners do, you may not feel rich even though you actually are. Honestly, if you can comfortably afford a new M3, you are rich.
I know it's all relative, but 350k, esp. pre-tax is not "rich" by any means in my book. I would consider that upper middle class. It's definitely a nice income, but most who buy cars like a turbo s are making much much more. I don't know the intentions of the SA. In the ideal world they should not make assumptions and treat everyone fairly.

That income would be really pushing it without a down payment even for a turbo, let alone a turbo S. It would be around 3k a month without a down payment. However, it does depend on ones lifestyle and what makes one happy. I think it's important to keep a DTI ratio around 20 to 30 max. Being car poor would suck. I see people doing it all the time. Most people I know with a similar income as the OP, some of whom are car enthusiasts, would not spend near that much and are very smart with their money. In my opinion, a good rule of thumb for max car price would 40% of ones pre-tax income. Therefore, for 250k, I would say about 100k max. Again, just my opinion. Someone mentioned that he might be a new physician. That's certainly possible as they usually don't have much credit and sometimes make big purchases as soon as the money starts rolling in...often times it's bad idea simply due to bad timing. I can understand the urge after so many years in training. I also agree that physicians on the whole more than anyone have an income that is well deserved.

Good luck OP. I hope you get that 911ts ASAP.

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      11-12-2011, 11:51 PM   #64
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US. University of Minnesota. All in all though the tuition prices are very similar, within 5-10 thousand.
Try going to a private school and you'll see the difference. State schools and the Canadian system are highly subsidized. Going to BU for 4 years of DDS back in 2005-2009 would set you back >200K just on tuition.
Canadian dental schools these days are no bargain, comparing closely to private US schools like BU. Tuition at UBC dentistry (University of British Columbia in Vancouver) is now $60k per year x4. With our currency basically at par, that's a serious debt load.
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      11-13-2011, 12:39 AM   #65
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As someone who was a car salesman, the salesman probably just realized that if OP wasn't going to get approved it wasn't worth wasting his time trying.

Car salesmen are VERY BUSY!
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      11-13-2011, 01:54 AM   #66
elp_jc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I own an M3!! WOW, I just found out I'm RICH!!
You COULD be rich . Since you can make a ton and owe everything, the correct approach to measure that should be net worth, rather than income.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christopherchenm View Post
If he spends the $170,000 in stocks he can make it a double or triple rather then paying a car that depreciates every year
That's a pretty stupid assumption these days . To me, the stock market is like gambling. I make my money working, not gambling. Those perceived profits can disappear in a day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
The large majority of Americans make far less than $50,000 a year. And as to the rest of the world, $50,000 is within the top 1% of household income.

Actually ... virtually every member of these forums is "rich." We are extraordinarily fortunate.
Amen to that brother. That's exactly the measure we all should use: look down, rather than up. Instead of cherishing what that 1% of the world can buy that you can't, feel fortunate you're better off than the remaining 99%. It keeps you humble. I'm extremely conservative with my finances, but I don't have the luxury of a steady, or even safe income, so have to compensate for that. And I'm always on jeans and a T-shirt, so don't feel rich, but I know I am, for the simple fact my family is healthy, none of my kids have any disability or illness, and we have all the necessities most folks take for granted. Hard to ignore when you see hundreds of households living in cardboard houses across the Rio Grande when going to the office. Have a good one folks.
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