BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
BPM Sport
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-09-2011, 12:47 AM   #23
tpowerdinny
Specialist
 
Drives: A Tricycle
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NYC

Posts: 613
iTrader: (4)

Thanks so much for all the pointers guys. Really helpful community here.

Looks like the XPipe and tune are a must-have. The Rogue Engineering Pulley kit seems to make a difference, a small one, but a difference. On my E39 M5 the difference was a little bit more significant (probably because more things are swapped). I'm definitely happy with it. I know the exhaust I have is in the low-end but for its value I couldn't be happier with it. From what I'm seeing even the higher-end ones are making virtually no difference in performance so I'm not too worried about it right now. I feel the sound is how the car should have come, its like an exaggerated stock sound with a little bass. The best thing about it is NO DRONE.

I know this car isn't a torque monster nor was it ever made to be so. The 335iS comment made me laugh because its completely true. The car drives great as is but what's there's no fun in leaving it stock
tpowerdinny is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 01:55 AM   #24
f32458
Private First Class
 
f32458's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Santa Monica

Posts: 198
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post

Also to the person said the exhaust causes loss of low end torque due to "decreased back pressure" that is a clear indicator you learned everything you speak of off google searches. That is the oldest myth on the net for an exhaust. You lose velocity of exhaust gases with larger piped exhaust systems so that will cause loss of torque but removing a cat and keepin otherwise same size piping will do nothing but increase torque throughout the band.
Thanks Ateam, this is what I thought. our M3 is a high revving engine!
__________________
2011 E90 DCT, sold
2011 E92 DCT ZCP | Akrapovic full setup | Evolve stage II | OEM grille | splitter | spoiler
f32458 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 02:05 AM   #25
tpowerdinny
Specialist
 
Drives: A Tricycle
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NYC

Posts: 613
iTrader: (4)

A little help for the NOOB? Would appreciate a little guidance. Thanks in advance.

Turner Test Pipes: (Won't be able to pass inspection in NY right? And will need the matching the software to get rid of CELs because I am removing primaries?)
- Sosi X-Pipe: (No CELs. No Resonators = rasp? Removing secondaries isn't going to unleash much power?)
- Challenge X-Pipe (Same as Sosi but with Resonators for a cleaner sound?)
Turner Stage 2 Performance Software: (requires pulling out the ECU. Any other recommendations? Seems like the biggest gains with TTP and customized with mods)
- Active Autowerke Performance Software: (Seems conservative. Not necessarily customized with other mods.)
- Powerchip: (Seems pretty aggressive. Can be customized with mods.)
tpowerdinny is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 02:30 AM   #26
Ateam
Banned
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (0)

THe problem is now crystal clear with the OP (maybe I missed it in his first post) but saw later you came from or used to have an e39 m5! Well the two could not be more different and you likely still drive and shift in the same way you did with that car which will not work. As I said, when you want to have performance, you need to be in probably 2 gears lower than you would think you should be in based on what gear the e39 m5 would have been. A rule of thumb is keep the revs above 6k and use the power band which is really about 6200-8400 ( if you redline each gear, the lowest it will drop after hitting 8400 is to 6200 in 2nd and then after that only drops to 6500) so that last 2k rpms is the "power band" you need to be in when you hit the pedal and want to go. Anything under that you might as well not drive the m3 in regards to expectations of power. Its 414 power is delivered SO much differently than the e39 m5. Try it and report back, I have a feeling you may change your tune.
Ateam is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 06:03 AM   #27
pbonsalb
Major
 
Drives: 08 E90 M3, 99 E36 M3 Turbo
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Concord, NH

Posts: 1,442
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
The people that complain about "low torque" are always the people who are not driving it above 6k RPMS. If you want to move and get some thrust which is torque to the wheels than keep it above 6k and have fun. "torque" as you call it is simply engine torque which is helpful only at low rpms which you should never see with this car. Engine, rpm and gearing create wheel torque which for this car is key.
This is the problem. Generally the people looking for more torque are looking for it in daily driving, at low to mid rpm. They are not the kind of people who like rowing the gears or pressing the buttons to keep the rpm above 6000 in daily driving so there is big power immediately available. It is a different style of driving.

Probably a different car would make them happier -- one with great low end torque for daily driving. They don't spend much time in the 6000 rpm range so the fact that power falls off up top and the car won't be as fast on a dragstrip or racetrack is not so important. They want a car that is quick in the shorter bursts of daily driving, without first preparing the car by revving up the engine and dropping down a couple of gears -- something some enjoy and some don't.

A car like a 335is with responsive turbo(s), an Audi S4 with a positive displacement supercharger (very different from a centrifugal supercharger that adds little or nothing to the low end), a Dodge SRT8 with large naturally aspirated V8, a Cadillac CTS-V with positive displacemen supercharged large V8 would be great for such drivers. And some of those cars are faster than the M3 even if the M3 is expertly driven and kept in the 6000 to 8400 rpm range.
pbonsalb is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 09:06 AM   #28
P@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
P@Evolve's Avatar
 
Drives: Quick enough
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: US

Posts: 352
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpowerdinny View Post
A little help for the NOOB? Would appreciate a little guidance. Thanks in advance.

Turner Test Pipes: (Won't be able to pass inspection in NY right? And will need the matching the software to get rid of CELs because I am removing primaries?)
- Sosi X-Pipe: (No CELs. No Resonators = rasp? Removing secondaries isn't going to unleash much power?)
- Challenge X-Pipe (Same as Sosi but with Resonators for a cleaner sound?)
Turner Stage 2 Performance Software: (requires pulling out the ECU. Any other recommendations? Seems like the biggest gains with TTP and customized with mods)
- Active Autowerke Performance Software: (Seems conservative. Not necessarily customized with other mods.)
- Powerchip: (Seems pretty aggressive. Can be customized with mods.)
Don't forget us! Our tune doesn't require removal of the ECU, a remote tuning unit is included in the cost.
P@Evolve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 09:25 AM   #29
1sikbmr
Brigadier General
 
1sikbmr's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3 6MT
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New York

Posts: 3,153
iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
335is with a tune
I literally spit out my drink
__________________

E90 ///M3 6MT Atlantis Blue - Fox red
Gloss black grilles/Red gills|V1 hardwire|Painted reflectors|ZHP lighted shift knob|VMR V710 silver|GTS lip|Lux custom 8k kit|AA Green Filter| AA Pulley| RPI GTM Exhaust|Sosi x-pipe|BMW Performance Steering Wheel V1|
1sikbmr is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 10:11 AM   #30
tpowerdinny
Specialist
 
Drives: A Tricycle
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NYC

Posts: 613
iTrader: (4)

Hey Ateam, thanks for pointing that out. Definitely different experiences between the cars when doing a back-to-back ride. I love the E92 M3 when it goes over 5500, even better over 6500. There is no doubt the car pulls very nicely in the upper range. I'd like a little more in the lower range for everyday driving. I hunt for empty backstreets to get the car in the upper range at least once before parking her . It drives great for sure. But I wouldn't mind a little extra in the lower.

pbonsalb, like you mentioned I'm looking for a bit more in the low/mid. Its not that I don't want to drive over 6000 all the time, I just don't want to squeal the whole way down a street all the time daily driving it. So I'm just looking for pointers that could help with the low/mid, even if its not necessarily drastic.

Paul@Evolve, please PM me when you can. I'd like to get some more info and maybe a recommendation you can make for the x-pipe. Thanks for posting.
tpowerdinny is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 10:24 AM   #31
1SICKM
Captain
 
1SICKM's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 M3 E92
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Mansfield, NJ

Posts: 945
iTrader: (5)

You bought the wrong car if you want more torque! I only gained 35whp going from catless boltons to the ESSvt1 535 kit but gained over 100whp.
__________________
E92 M3 DCT...Powered by ESS VT2 650/DCT GTS Software/Aquamist HFS-3 50/50/Morr /Toyo R888's

CURRENT WORLD RECORD HOLDER 1/4 MILE - 12/7/12 (ESS VT2 625, Meth Off)
ATCO RACEWAY: 10.65 @ 131.79MPH 1.725 60FT
1SICKM is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 12:20 PM   #32
Ateam
Banned
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA

Posts: 1,109
iTrader: (0)

Unfortantely like someone said I think you really bought the wrong car. A new f10 m5 would have been a dream for you! You really cannot have it both ways in a car designed like this. The power is all designed to be up top and unless you go FI, there is really no way to get low end power with this design of an engine. I hear you that its more of a pain to be riding above 5500 all the time but there is nothing different about doing that then driving at 2500 in a motor with huge low end torque. The end result is both produce power to the wheels, its just they do it differently. So not sure what Squeeling you are referring to? The engine noise will be more drastic that is forsure to achieve the same pull as a big torque monster.

In all honsesty if you do not warm up to keeping revs high then you may live a disapointing life with your m3!
Ateam is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 12:33 PM   #33
tom @ eas
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
tom @ eas's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posts: 9,625
iTrader: (13)

Garage List
Here's a good example of bolt-on modifications both pre/post dyno:



Vehicle: 2011 BMW M3 (Mineral White)
Dynorun 2: Baseline
Dynorun 7: Macht Schnell Stage 2 Intake Charge Kit, Macht Schnell S65 Performance Underdrive Pulleys, Stock Exhaust
Dynorun 16: Macht Schnell Stage 2 Intake Charge Kit, Macht Schnell S65 Performance Underdrive Pulleys, Akrapovic Evolution Titanium Exhaust System

This is on 91OCT, a proper tune (like the Evolve) would likely sweeten the deal.

More info can be found in this thread: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=567651
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com web: www.europeanautosource.com tel 866.669.0705 ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG FACEBOOK YOUTUBE FLICKR INSTAGRAM
tom @ eas is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 02:33 PM   #34
tpowerdinny
Specialist
 
Drives: A Tricycle
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NYC

Posts: 613
iTrader: (4)

Hey Tom, thanks for that link. What tune have you guys been using on your shop cars out of curiosity?
tpowerdinny is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 02:39 PM   #35
lenzm3edan
First Pride
 
lenzm3edan's Avatar
 
Drives: E90, Mercedes ML 350, subi
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Unknown.

Posts: 1,315
iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
A $3000 rear exhaust won't do much for your car, either. From BMW, you get a "more powerful sound" for your $3k. From Akra, you get 3 rwhp for your $3k.

It is the midpipe where the significant gains can be made.
Amen to that
lenzm3edan is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 02:42 PM   #36
tom @ eas
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
tom @ eas's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posts: 9,625
iTrader: (13)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpowerdinny View Post
Hey Tom, thanks for that link. What tune have you guys been using on your shop cars out of curiosity?
We've tested the Dinan, GIAC and Evolve tunes with good results.

We've performed some extensive testing with the Evolve tune. While results from the Evolve tunes were most favorable in gains (both midrange and peak) out of the three - we'd like to get a bit more data before making any solid recommendations.

Either way, you can't go wrong with either one.
__________________
Tom G. | european auto source (eas)
email: tom@europeanautosource.com web: www.europeanautosource.com tel 866.669.0705 ca: 714.369.8524 x22

GET DAILY UPDATES ON OUR BLOG FACEBOOK YOUTUBE FLICKR INSTAGRAM
tom @ eas is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 02:46 PM   #37
stefan
Colonel
 
stefan's Avatar
 
Drives: E92M3
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Calgary

Posts: 2,122
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
1999 VF BMW M3  [5.00]
2008 135i  [5.00]
2003 M3  [3.10]
2011.75 BMW M3  [4.17]
2009 STi  [3.83]
I have much respect for the avid modder's search for more power and torque. Great info about the midpipes.. But if your goal is strictly torque, I hate to say you should probably look at a 1M or 335is.

Some light reading: http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html The highlight is that Torque = (HP*5252)/RPM.. so as you can see it is really a function of power and inversely proportional to rpm (gearing). So really, you need something that will do more work in a shorter amount of time.. so a turbo. It'll give you that whooshy torque you can feel at low RPMs. Dies off quickly though as a result of the work being done so quickly/early on.

Or, just drive the M3 the way it was meant to be driven: in the screaming high RPMs!!
__________________
///M Power - 2011.75 LMB M3 6MT (fuelly)
stefan is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-09-2011, 03:45 PM   #38
f32458
Private First Class
 
f32458's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Santa Monica

Posts: 198
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan View Post
I have much respect for the avid modder's search for more power and torque. Great info about the midpipes.. But if yo!
+1
__________________
2011 E90 DCT, sold
2011 E92 DCT ZCP | Akrapovic full setup | Evolve stage II | OEM grille | splitter | spoiler
f32458 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-10-2011, 07:30 AM   #39
1SICKM
Captain
 
1SICKM's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 M3 E92
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Mansfield, NJ

Posts: 945
iTrader: (5)

Seriously people are
missing the point here.
There are way too many salesman on this board...lol. Ride in a viper, gt 500, z06,zr1, or cts v. If you want to be sucked into the
seat buy American but you will sacrifice a lot.
__________________
E92 M3 DCT...Powered by ESS VT2 650/DCT GTS Software/Aquamist HFS-3 50/50/Morr /Toyo R888's

CURRENT WORLD RECORD HOLDER 1/4 MILE - 12/7/12 (ESS VT2 625, Meth Off)
ATCO RACEWAY: 10.65 @ 131.79MPH 1.725 60FT
1SICKM is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-10-2011, 08:54 AM   #40
gthal
Colonel
 
gthal's Avatar
 
Drives: C63 coupe
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Canada

Posts: 2,172
iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2011 M3  [3.37]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SICKM View Post
Seriously people are
missing the point here.
There are way too many salesman on this board...lol. Ride in a viper, gt 500, z06,zr1, or cts v. If you want to be sucked into the
seat buy American but you will sacrifice a lot.
Or C63, GT-R... not just American. Besides, I don't think you are sacrificing much with a Z06 or ZR1 other than passenger and cargo room... both would be great cars.

The real issue is whether you want a high strung racing type engine (with gearing that really gets torque to the wheels) or a bigger V8 or TT that has much more torque down low. It is about preference. Some buy an M3 and are disappointed with the torque and that's fine... personally, I never understood the complaint as I always thought the M3 had tons of usable torque and an incredibly versatile engine.
gthal is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-10-2011, 12:56 PM   #41
persian54
Lieutenant General
 
persian54's Avatar
 
Drives: SL550. Prev: E93 M3/335i/Z435i
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Valley, SoCal

Posts: 15,667
iTrader: (282)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
200 cell hjs cats in the same position as the primaries. Secondary cat delete and includes resonators
Thanks for the info.

Seems to be a similar design as the AA then


Quote:
Originally Posted by redline9001 View Post
There is big difference with a Akra evo with a tune vs without. In low end response. With the akra a tune is a must IMO.
+1


Quote:
Originally Posted by mshab356 View Post


Better exhaust. A $600 exhaust won't do much to your car. And a Dinan diff is a great addition as well. Also, replacing the stock x-pipe and cats with high flow cats or catless then adding a tune that takes advantage of your full exhaust with hfc/catless + intake + pulley will definitely bump up torque and hp. Don't bother with headers, as the only ones available are $7200 (forgot which vendor's site I saw them for sale on).
RD Sport has Headers IIRC

IND sells them by order...I think

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ateam View Post
The people that complain about "low torque" are always the people who are not driving it above 6k RPMS. If you want to move and get some thrust which is torque to the wheels than keep it above 6k and have fun. "torque" as you call it is simply engine torque which is helpful only at low rpms which you should never see with this car. Engine, rpm and gearing create wheel torque which for this car is key.

Also to the person said the exhaust causes loss of low end torque due to "decreased back pressure" that is a clear indicator you learned everything you speak of off google searches. That is the oldest myth on the net for an exhaust. You lose velocity of exhaust gases with larger piped exhaust systems so that will cause loss of torque but removing a cat and keepin otherwise same size piping will do nothing but increase torque throughout the band.
Well, if by "google searches" you mean m3post.com/m3forum.net, then yes, you are absolutely right

I have learned everything about this car, whether true or untrue, from these 2 sites, as well as speaking to the vendors/sponsors in person at their respected shops

Also, when I said decreased low end torque with the akra, I wasn't comparing it to stock, I was comparing it to the AA xpipe I had perviously.
I cannot compare my Akra to stock as I never went from stock to Akra, I went stock->AA->Akra.
I have no yet dynoed with the Akra set up to compare it to the AA, but in all honesty I really don't care about dyno numbers.
I'm happy driving the car at the track, so there's no need for me.
And I rarely go above 3500 RPM on the street, unless it's from downshifting so I can hear the DCT blips :P.

I tend to drive the Z4 around town, it's a significantly better daily driver than my M3 is


Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Or C63, GT-R... not just American. Besides, I don't think you are sacrificing much with a Z06 or ZR1 other than passenger and cargo room... both would be great cars.
They don't have hard top verts ;'(

If they make a hard top vert 6 series, I'll seriously consider getting one.
I test drove a soft top the other day and it was phenomenal.
I'd gladly get rid of the Z4 for one if it was a hard top.
Silky smooth steering, responsive engine, torque, DCT, luxurious, comfortable, etc. I disliked the previous 6, but the new one has really grown on me.

Last edited by persian54; 11-10-2011 at 01:09 PM.
persian54 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-10-2011, 08:30 PM   #42
tpowerdinny
Specialist
 
Drives: A Tricycle
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NYC

Posts: 613
iTrader: (4)

Well I'm a cheap bast@rd. I ordered the Sosi X-Pipe. Spoke to the guys over there who were very informative and stood behind their product. I was really looking into the Challenge and almost ordered it but I thought I could achieve the same with the Sosi pipe. The installation is pretty straightforward and one thing that was important was not to get any CELs.

Next is going to be a tune. Depending the results I will more than likely get some HFC to replace the stock primaries. Any specific 200cell cats anyone can recommend? I saw Magnaflow makes a 2.5" 200 cell metal catalyst in a stainless steel body for $100 each.

I don't mind experimenting with the lower-end stuff. I know the can of worms that could possibly be opened. Along with the shop we will take a look at how it goes. If the setup ends up being crap, we toss it. No big loss. I really do appreciate the hardwork and craftsmanship some of the better companies produce but that doesn't mean it should be my only choice. We'll see where it goes.

Any recommendations on a specific tune guys? Evolve... no PM?

I understand that this car isn't a torque monster, nor can it be made that way, I was looking into ways to add a little more pep to its step.

Thanks for all the info so far guys.

Last edited by tpowerdinny; 11-10-2011 at 09:29 PM.
tpowerdinny is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-11-2011, 04:17 AM   #43
P@Evolve
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
P@Evolve's Avatar
 
Drives: Quick enough
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: US

Posts: 352
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpowerdinny View Post
Well I'm a cheap bast@rd. I ordered the Sosi X-Pipe. Spoke to the guys over there who were very informative and stood behind their product. I was really looking into the Challenge and almost ordered it but I thought I could achieve the same with the Sosi pipe. The installation is pretty straightforward and one thing that was important was not to get any CELs.

Next is going to be a tune. Depending the results I will more than likely get some HFC to replace the stock primaries. Any specific 200cell cats anyone can recommend? I saw Magnaflow makes a 2.5" 200 cell metal catalyst in a stainless steel body for $100 each.

I don't mind experimenting with the lower-end stuff. I know the can of worms that could possibly be opened. Along with the shop we will take a look at how it goes. If the setup ends up being crap, we toss it. No big loss. I really do appreciate the hardwork and craftsmanship some of the better companies produce but that doesn't mean it should be my only choice. We'll see where it goes.

Any recommendations on a specific tune guys? Evolve... no PM?

I understand that this car isn't a torque monster, nor can it be made that way, I was looking into ways to add a little more pep to its step.

Thanks for all the info so far guys.
You got it
P@Evolve is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2011, 11:08 AM   #44
tpowerdinny
Specialist
 
Drives: A Tricycle
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NYC

Posts: 613
iTrader: (4)

Sosi X-pipe installed. Great sound combination with the Megan exhaust. I feel a little more giddy up. Very happy so far. I will post a video when I get a chance.

I'm pretty sure i will be ordering some 200 cell HFCs. Next will be a tune
tpowerdinny is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:44 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST